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IRCAM Tools by Flux:: Reverb & Delay Plugins
Old 31st March 2010
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danger View Post
room, plate, hall algorithms included?
I will have to check with IRCAM to see in details exactly what can be achieved with the reverberation engine... there's a big job of building preset banks to do here too...




Cheers,
/Felix
Old 31st March 2010
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Absolute View Post
That is really cool

This is going to very useful for Film, TV, and radio production.
Yup, right on buddy, and there's a couple of guys up in northern California who's doing this kind of jobs big time that has been on the case for some months now making sure the functions and feature-set is 100% for any truly demanding mixing engineer....




Cheers,
/felix
Old 31st March 2010
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fantomen View Post
I can imagine plenty of electronic music producers killing also for this, especially for trance music.
For the TRAX series of plugins, it's almost worth to make a bet on who's gonna make the first album with the vocals completely soaked in the Trax Transformer plugin...

heh

Cheers,
/Felix
Old 6th April 2010
  #64
Here for the gear
 

Wow,

Ive just come off a job where I was looking far and wide for a plugin that does what SPAT does. Ended up getting the result with custum panners, dynamic eq and mutichannel reverbs. The fact that its being released by FLUX is also great as their plugins are a major part of my arsenal.
This is the best news I've heard all year!!!
Old 7th April 2010
  #65
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TonyBelmont's Avatar
 

Here's the plugin screenshots.
Attached Thumbnails
IRCAM Tools by Flux::-crosssynthesis_full_screen.jpg   IRCAM Tools by Flux::-sourcefilter_full_screen.jpg   IRCAM Tools by Flux::-spat_reverb_full_screen.jpg   IRCAM Tools by Flux::-trax_full_screen.jpg   IRCAM Tools by Flux::-verb_full_screen.jpg  

Old 8th May 2010
  #66
Gear Maniac
 

I'm a big fan of Flux:: plugs, but still, you are so expensive guys ...
I guess the IRCAM has to have a piece of this cake, but damn!
I don't know plugs market, but don't you think you'd rather sell 8,000 plugs at $350 than 500 at $1800 a year ? ... Well forget those figures, nothing is less sure than sale trends, but I'm sure about that: your price policy put most of home-studios out of your grasp, and there are much more of them than studios.

Anyhow, I'm looking forward trying those especially SPAT, hoping this could be my next go-to early-reflection-mojo tool.

Cheers.
Old 8th May 2010
  #67
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Gemylon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manuel75 View Post
I'm a big fan of Flux:: plugs, but still, you are so expensive guys ...
I guess the IRCAM has to have a piece of this cake, but damn!
I don't know plugs market, but don't you think you'd rather sell 8,000 plugs at $350 than 500 at $1800 a year ? ... Well forget those figures, nothing is less sure than sale trends, but I'm sure about that: your price policy put most of home-studios out of your grasp, and there are much more of them than studios.

Good points


G
Old 8th May 2010
  #68
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These are high-end professional tools. That's it.
Old 8th May 2010
  #69
CKK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danger View Post
These are high-end professional tools. That's it.
And as all professional tools - they should be priced for maximum sales in mind. There is no magic here - its plain business one-on-one.

Theres too much snobbery going on here (I think). The cost for the development of this, is exactly the same if they sell 1 or 5000 licenses + the fact that when ready for sales, there really is no more big expenses for the company since most sales will be done by download. And as mentioned in a post earlier, the lower the price - the more people will buy it. That would lead to higher sales and, in the end, a higher profit for the given company (not to mention a more widespread brand name).

My prediction for this product (as with Lexicon native reverb), is that the price will remain high in no more than 1-2 years - after that the price will plummet just to squeeze the last dime out of the market - and of course to stay in a market where the competitors has developed similar products.
Old 8th May 2010
  #70
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by danger View Post
These are high-end professional tools. That's it.
I don't see how this fact can be related to any price policy. One of the huge breakthrough of digital age is that the technology is immaterial thus can easily spread around the world and get afforded by more wallets. No high end components and production chain, plus - since internet - no distribution fees, means only R&D expenses for the company.
When plugs are coming back to almost the price tag of an Eventide or even a R. Neve PRE I feel a bit surprised. Elysia, Duende (in a way) Brainworx or 2Caudio Aether are in their own ways top notch plugs, or even your DAW has cost much more money and people to be developed than most plugs that cost now 4 times its price (especially if you talk about Logic Pro). The point is marketing policy, and if I don't understand Flux::'s one I guess they have their reason to do so.
The IRCAM is one of the best R&D team here in France, probably in europe and around the world too. The fact that those years of researches now get turned into amazing products is a very good news. But the fact that the price tag of these are almost the same as old school gears makes me think of the time, the bad time, when homestudios didn't exist because everything was far too expensive (like one plugin > 1000 euros).

Now back to the topic: Felix could you tell us more about the difference between SPAT full version and partial (Reverb ?) ? I don't get it cristal clear...
Old 8th May 2010
  #71
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Shaggy2039's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by danger View Post
These are high-end professional tools. That's it.
I hate this notion that somehow "high end" tools are priced higher because only "professionals" use them. This is the same model that Digi used with PTHD and look where that got them. Technology constantly evolves and a native system is now just as powerful as PT..

These are just over-priced tools. That's it.

Flux plug ins are great, but, in general, way over priced and they will be forced by the market to eventually lower their pricing as more and more developers create better and better products. I think it's hubris on their part to charge as much as they do - $550 for the ePure alone? Come on...That's about $200 bucks too high when I just bought the Softtube Passive Active pack for $180 bucks and it kicks all kinds of ass.
Old 8th May 2010
  #72
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benoïde's Avatar
 

Is the market for this (SPAT & TRAX) really big? Don't get me wrong, these are probably excellent products, but I think the market isn't nearly as big as for the Lex plugins, or even the SplitComp (Algorithmix). I understand the price is high, because not every musician wants to use morphing or specific spatialisation algorithms in their music and this is probably targeted mainly at sound designers and post studios. And there, you have competing products by Symbolic sound, GRM Tools, Max/MSP,...

I understand people bitching about the price, but would you really buy it if it was cheaper?
Old 8th May 2010
  #73
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DSpec1's Avatar
 

Re: IRCAM Tools by Flux::

Quote:
Originally Posted by benoïde
Is the market for this (SPAT & TRAX) really big? Don't get me wrong, these are probably excellent products, but I think the market isn't nearly as big as for the Lex plugins, or even the SplitComp (Algorithmix). I understand the price is high, because not every musician wants to use morphing or specific spatialisation algorithms in their music and this is probably targeted mainly at sound designers and post studios. And there, you have competing products by Symbolic sound, GRM Tools, Max/MSP,...

I understand people bitching about the price, but would you really buy it if it was cheaper?
Yes. I would buy it "if it was cheaper".

If it's affordable, the product becomes a viable option in the marketplace.


Posted via the Gearslutz iPhone app
Old 8th May 2010
  #74
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by benoïde View Post
I understand people bitching about the price, but would you really buy it if it was cheaper?
Ummm... YES!?!
Old 8th May 2010
  #75
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Gemylon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by benoïde View Post
I understand people bitching about the price, but would you really buy it if it was cheaper?

Yes, I probably would !

But now, sorry, no way...


BTW...

Softube is one company that also makes 'High Professional Plugs'.
But completely different price policy.

That's the way to go


G
Old 8th May 2010
  #76
Lives for gear
 

These plugs are also must have for film and video.
As far as i see Flux's idea to force you to buy the packs, not individual plugins.
Same conversations were in the PCM topic and i think they are still selling those, so...
Old 8th May 2010
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benoïde View Post

i understand people bitching about the price, but would you really buy it if it was cheaper?
hell yes...
Old 8th May 2010
  #78
Gear Addict
 

The prices, and so far the product options for the IRCAM Tools are:

SPAT
This tool is not for everyone, it's a highly advanced tool for multichannel mixing and localization within an acoustically simulated environment, and it got three verb engines within itself that can be used simultaneously (with one verb per incoming source at a time). It got 8 channels i/o and decoding/encoding of all existing encoding formats used today. The MSRP is set to 1400 eur, which can seem steep, but considering the amount of work put into this unit, and the niched market for it, there's no other way to do it.

VERB
Is a total killer verb, still 8 channel i/o supporting up to 7.1/8.0 as well, but without the localization functionality (spatialization) found in SPAT. The MSRP is set to 800 eur, and its pretty much the same here, this tool is really kind of niched, with an amazing breathtaking sounding algorithm. For those who need a fantastic 2 ch. verb for the home studio, it may feel a bit pricey, but for a surround capable verb, this is a killer product at a really fair price.

TRAX
A bundle with three plugins, where the Trax Transformer plug-in is something OUT OF THIS WORLD, I will put up some sound demos on youtube from the Transformer within the next week. The MSRP is 400 eur, for all three plugins together that is.


I cant wait to see this thread again when all of you have had the chance to try and hear what these babies are capable of. And sound wise for the verb algos, I have had reactions from people that has access to all the most expensive stuff on the market, like "NO EFFING WAY!!! THIS IS AMAZING!!! WHEN CAN I GET THIS????", so...




Cheers,
/felix
Old 8th May 2010
  #79
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benoïde's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy2039 View Post
hell yes...

I'm not talking about Flux plugs in general, but about thoses two. I'm only interested in TRAX's morphing capabilities - or cross-synthesis between two differents signals. Hopefully it won't be too expensive. SPAT doesn't do anything I need and I'm already covered in the verb department.
Old 8th May 2010
  #80
Lives for gear
 

Nuff said! I think it's well explained now.
Old 8th May 2010
  #81
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benoïde's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix (Flux) View Post
The prices, and so far the product options for the IRCAM Tools are:

(...)


Cheers,
/felix

I wrote my previous message without seeing this one, but I must say I totally agree with it. And 400eur for TRAX seems like a good price to me if it does what I hope. I'm really looking forward to watching those demos. Is it like Kyma in its x-synthesis capabilities (real-time morphing of two live sources, freezing, midi control?)?

Cheers and thanx for thoses new developments!
Old 8th May 2010
  #82
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I would like to know how the verb compares in it's design approach to other high-end algorithmic reverbs.


-SD
Old 8th May 2010
  #83
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyBelmont View Post
Here's the plugin screenshots.
And to see the localization functionality in SPAT, see the rest of the screenshot here: IRCAM-tools

Cheers,
/Felix
Old 8th May 2010
  #84
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicdefault View Post
I would like to know how the verb compares in it's design approach to other high-end algorithmic reverbs.
If you do a search on Jot+IRCAM on Google, you will probably get the basics of the algorithm. Mind you, Jot left IRCAM in the late 1990's to go to Creative Labs (he is at DTS now), so there has undoubtedly been a lot of work done since then. But the Spat stuff was being discussed in journals in the 1990's.

Commercial reverbs tend to be secret things. However, I know that Miller Puckette was designing feedback delay network reverbs at IRCAM back in 1985, and the Jot papers on feedback delay network reverbs from IRCAM were from the mid to late 1990's, so that gives a fair amount of evidence about what techniques are being used. Plus, the basic division of the reverb components (early, cluster echos, late reverb) conforms to Jot's work.

Many of the other commercial reverbs use allpass loops, as discussed by Gardner and Dattorro in their (respectively) 1992 and 1997 papers. Eventide is a company that has at least discussed using FDN reverbs in some of their publications, but I haven't worked with an Eventide in person, and their DSP blocks are largely closed, so it is hard to say.

None of the above is giving away many secrets, as it only discusses what the basic techniques are that have been published. Very few complete reverb designs have been published, and the ones that give delay line lengths (Gardner, Dattorro) tend to be overly simplified compared to what is used in high quality commercial products.
Old 8th May 2010
  #85
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix (Flux) View Post
SPAT
This tool is not for everyone, it's a highly advanced tool for multichannel mixing and localization within an acoustically simulated environment, and it got three verb engines within itself that can be used simultaneously (with one verb per incoming source at a time). It got 8 channels i/o and decoding/encoding of all existing encoding formats used today. The MSRP is set to 1400 eur, which can seem steep, but considering the amount of work put into this unit, and the niched market for it, there's no other way to do it.
I'm curious to know if its abilities can translate in an interesting way to a stereo project. And that's what I will try first if a demo version comes out.
Early reflection/location is a (not to say _the_) key for lead vocal treatment, today we have to use a lot of buses, pre-delay (stereo phase shift and EQ ...) to manipulate and create this "spatialization" and presence for vocals (lead instruments, electro FX) into the mix. So my point is that, maybe this kind of product can be very useful as a user-friendly user interface and more accurate tool to achieve what we already do, but painfully. ... then, in conjonction with automation, it might open the door to new experiments, still in the stereo field.

The thing about music is that a lot a engineers build tools for a specific task then users come and use them in more creative ways than those expected (Let's start with EQ and compressor, but the list is so damn long ...). Never underestimate artists creativity, and IMHO it's the job of marketing guys to let the doors open while proposing a new product on an artistic market.

SPAT might be a very good candidate for music experimentation and mixing new trends... or not... (it depends on the number of its potential users).
Old 8th May 2010
  #86
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Can I respectfully suggest that Flux/Ircam consider a rental option?

- c
Old 8th May 2010
  #87
CKK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danger View Post
Nuff said! I think it's well explained now.
Again - no it is not yet well explained. There's absolutely no logic in high prices when talking software since when the code is written, there are no more expenses to be considered. When building hardware units (cars, stereo's etc) you have "fixed" expenses on each and every unit you produce - thats not the case with software.

And I do not agree with the statement that this is "a niche product". If the pricing was right, this software would be bought and used by perhaps thousands of "hobbyists/bedroom producers" AND the big league studios as well. For a software company this is a "win/win" situation - at least if they want to make money.

To me - this is plain bad business.
Old 8th May 2010
  #88
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I'd like to thank you guys, especially Felix, for actually talking about the products now. Although, much of it is whining about the price. I suppose that's better than alcoholics discussing how tall, fat and bald they are... or being chastised by elbo and others for starting a thread about an actual new product.

Also, from another thread:

I heard a rumor that Flux is bundling Epure II into their new EQute bundle. They have just about every other possible combination of their nine plug-ins covered, right? Now, of course, they only have one EQ plug-in to put in the bundle and the price is the same, but it has a new cute name and can be re-trotted out as a new product.

heh
Old 8th May 2010
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CKK View Post
Again - no it is not yet well explained. There's absolutely no logic in high prices when talking software since when the code is written, there are no more expenses to be considered. When building hardware units (cars, stereo's etc) you have "fixed" expenses on each and every unit you produce - thats not the case with software.
Facepalm.
So for an Eventide it costs thousands because of the physical materials, right?
Software, so no hardware units, thats why it's not $2000, just half of it, or do you think all the Flux and IRCAM people work for free? and the company doesnt have taxes to pay etc, right?
Old 8th May 2010
  #90
CKK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danger View Post
Facepalm.
So for an Eventide it costs thousands because of the physical materials, right?
Software, so no hardware units, thats why it's not $2000, just half of it, or do you think all the Flux and IRCAM people work for free? and the company doesnt have taxes to pay etc, right?
Oh dear.
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