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SPL Vitalizer MK2-t plugin!! Dynamics Plugins
Old 18th January 2010
  #301
Gear Head
 

Does anybody know how the stereo widener on the Vitalizer compares to other stereo wideners like Waves, etc.? What's the difference if any?

I read somewhere that legendary dance music artist Chicane used a Vitalizer on his first 2 albums, especially this stereo width function for putting his pads to the side. I'm interested in using it for the same, but I'm wondering if there's a better option...
Old 18th January 2010
  #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnguyen437 View Post
Does anybody know how the stereo widener on the Vitalizer compares to other stereo wideners like Waves, etc.? What's the difference if any?

I read somewhere that legendary dance music artist Chicane used a Vitalizer on his first 2 albums, especially this stereo width function for putting his pads to the side. I'm interested in using it for the same, but I'm wondering if there's a better option...
Well, like with all the stereo "expanders", use it with care, SUBTLE.

That plugins can do wonders on full mixes, but if you plan to use it just for that, maybe you may give a look to cheaper plugins.
Old 18th January 2010
  #303
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Suda Badri's Avatar
 

Well Flux do a free stereo plug-in, expands like you would imagine any expander would... the Vitalizer hardware uses tubes in the widening circuit so that might be why chicane used it exclusively... but someone here posted the stereo widening does not emulate the tube stage yumminess.... but yeah dont buy the vitalizer only for the stereo widening, unless you rich! Flux stereo tool is a god sent for anyone on cubase pissed off about stereo tracks and their one slider panning...

Cheers,

Suda
Old 18th January 2010
  #304
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T_R_S's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnguyen437 View Post
Does anybody know how the stereo widener on the Vitalizer compares to other stereo wideners like Waves, etc.? What's the difference if any?

I read somewhere that legendary dance music artist Chicane used a Vitalizer on his first 2 albums, especially this stereo width function for putting his pads to the side. I'm interested in using it for the same, but I'm wondering if there's a better option...
Duy Wide and BX Hybrid Digital EQ has a wide function. But I like the SPL myself as it does not mess the phase up as much as DUY.
Old 18th January 2010
  #305
Lives for gear
 

Nice plugin, great on bringing that collophonium out in strings, but going digital SPL missed the chance to implement the most important feature and advantage of digital:

auto gain compensation at the output for meaningful AB comparisons.
That feature alone makes Ozone or other plugs with that feature so valuable.

How often bypass would have been the best setting, yet the louder signal wins...

If SPL could get this implemented, I might buy it.
Old 18th January 2010
  #306
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio ergo sum View Post
Nice plugin, great on bringing that collophonium out in strings, but going digital SPL missed the chance to implement the most important feature and advantage of digital:

auto gain compensation at the output for meaningful AB comparisons.
That feature alone makes Ozone or other plugs with that feature so valuable.

How often bypass would have been the best setting, yet the louder signal wins...

If SPL could get this implemented, I might buy it.
You must dial in the right output level manually, an accurate automatic gain compensation does not exist. It never really worked well with dynamic devices, but is impossible for EQs....
Best,
Pat
Old 18th January 2010
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post
You must dial in the right output level manually, an accurate automatic gain compensation does not exist. It never really worked well with dynamic devices, but is impossible for EQs....
Best,
Pat
Why impossible for EQs?
Because of Fletcher-Munson?
There are approximations for compensation that work well enough in EQs.
How does Ozone do it?
Old 18th January 2010
  #308
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio ergo sum View Post
Why impossible for EQs?
Because of Fletcher-Munson?
There are approximations for compensation that work well enough in EQs.
How does Ozone do it?
It cannot work because a bassy source with lots of amplitude around 65Hz will get lower in volume when the process is turned up (just process no bass process going on) with a f setting of 2k for example - whereas a sound that has mostly upper midrange will get louder at the exact same setting. The source material determines if and how much the level changes and in which direction. Or with a standard eq, think of a hiphop sine bass without overtones - set an EQ to a 12dB boost at 5kHz, the level of the bass will not change at all - an automatic loudness compensation would pull the level down some hefty dBs nonetheless etc. etc.....An average automatic loudness compensation could only be done when exclusively working on signals that contains all frequencies like pink noise, it might get ok results when dealing with full mixes that contain many frequencies as well. In that case it could be pretty accurate, but then again, listen on a non fullrange speaker and it will be off again. Use it on single sources and get very wrong results. I would rather have no automatic compensation and do it precisely by hand than having an automated process that tries but can´t succeed. In those cases the user thinks the loudnesses are automatically compensated for when they are not in reality, so the user makes a decision on something wrong again, thinking he´s safe.

Rock on!
Pat
Old 18th January 2010
  #309
Lives for gear
 

I see your point but considering that in particular Vitalizer works only with very wide EQ bands with shallow Q settings, it should not be too difficult to find a good approximation for loudness compensation.

It is just so much easier to judge the overall timbre, when the loudness remains constant following immediately and continuously every timbre change.
Old 18th January 2010
  #310
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio ergo sum View Post
It is just so much easier to judge the overall timbre, when the loudness remains constant following immediately and continuously every timbre change.
You are totally right with this thought, but the problem is that it´s simply not possible. The source determines the resulting loudness change combined with any eq setting. The same EQ setting on a bass track will result in a very different level change on a hh track - so there cannot be an automatic gain compensation for the EQ setting. Impossible...

Rock on!
Pat
Old 21st January 2010
  #311
Lives for gear
 

DUlls the sound

When I insert the plugin into the audio path, it dulls the sound.
I haven't read all the posts to notice if some else has mentioned this.

The manual states:

Default Settings
The following are the default settings of the plug-in and they have
no impact on the audio signal:
• DRIVE at “0” (center position)
• BASS at “0” (center position)
• COMPRESSION at OFF (hard left)
• MID-HI TUNE at 3 kHz (center position)
• PROCESS at OFF (hard left)
• LC-EQ at LOW (hard left)
• INTENSITY at OFF (hard left)
• STEREO EXPANDER at OFF (hard left)
• OUTPUT at “0” (center position)

To repeat

"no impact on the audio signal"

I have found the opposite to be true.
Inserting this plugin removes the openness, solid lows, the detailed highes, the snap, punch and clarity of the original sound. No matter what I tried, I could not bring back the quality of the original and work from there. I found myself trying first to compensate for the damage this plugin does to my tracks, let alone trying to "improve" or make acceptable adjustments.

It was easy to make the sound brighter and louder and thinner. Perhaps this plugin is only for adjusting very, very poor audio sources where there is nothing good in the original.

Also, there is no function to copy your settings from one memory button to another. If you wish to compare settings, you have to manually recreated them in another memory button, and then make the adjustments. This is so basic, how could a programmer not think it important? And another plugin design that does not allow you to save settings to disk so you may recall them in another application or back them up for security.

Very disappointing.

I own SPL hardware which I quite like.

I tried the plugin in Nuendo 4 and Samplitude 10.

my 2 cents
Old 21st January 2010
  #312
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob99 View Post
Inserting this plugin removes the openness, solid lows, the detailed highes, the snap, punch and clarity of the original sound. No matter what I tried, I could not bring back the quality of the original and work from there. I found myself trying first to compensate for the damage this plugin does to my tracks, let alone trying to "improve" or make acceptable adjustments.
My guess on this is that you are probably "hearing" things. Like back then when you were convinced (and probably still are) that the powercore Oxford EQ sounds brighter than the native version...which I found to null at minus infinity in a 180° cancellation scenario...

In the case of the Vitalizer there is no nulling though, so the "neutral" setting changes the sound (as to be expected with an algorithm trying to simulate a complex analog signal path), so the degradation statement will be a matter of personal preferences. As it seems most users, including bigshots like Greg Wells and the professionals he works with, seem to love what the plugin can do to improve their sound. Personally I think the same, the thing can do really, really good stuff given it is used with moderation in the right spots. Degradation of bass, highs, punch, clarity in it´s most neutral setting? Not what I´m hearing at all, but that´s just me.

Best,
Pat
Old 21st January 2010
  #313
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Suda Badri's Avatar
 

It does not degrade the signal, but the hardware is so much more forgiving... this plug-in made me realize the noobness of my ears...
Old 21st January 2010
  #314
Moderator
 
matt thomas's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rob99 View Post
The manual states:

Default Settings

The following are the default settings of the plug-in and they have
no impact on the audio signal:

To repeat

"no impact on the audio signal"

I have found the opposite to be true.
Inserting this plugin removes the openness, solid lows, the detailed highes, the snap, punch and clarity of the original sound.
I read this and realised it was very easy to test your calim. I did a null test between a dry track and the same track with the vitaliser (default settings) and it nulled 100% (clarification: at least as far as the meters go in logic, and also to my ears)

In other words SPL are correct, their is literally "no impact on the audio signal" with the default settings. Anything you are hearing is either user error or in your head.

EDIT: on closer inspection it is not a total null, see the next few posts! apologies to rob99

matt
Old 21st January 2010
  #315
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt thomas View Post
I read this and realised it was very easy to test your calim. I did a null test between a dry track and the same track with the vitaliser (default settings) and it nulled 100%

In other words SPL are correct, their is literally "no impact on the audio signal" with the default settings. Anything you are hearing is either user error or in your head.

matt
Shame on them, they didn't model the analog bypass switch correctly? What about corrosion, is that at least modeled?
I also see no place for entering the desired room temperature in the settings, really disappointing. What about cosmic radiation?
I can hear that none of these are accurately modeled.
Old 21st January 2010
  #316
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt thomas View Post
I read this and realised it was very easy to test your calim. I did a null test between a dry track and the same track with the vitaliser (default settings) and it nulled 100%

In other words SPL are correct, their is literally "no impact on the audio signal" with the default settings. Anything you are hearing is either user error or in your head.

matt
Really? When I do this in cubase5 with delay compensation, it does not null. What sampling rate did you use? Maybe it is an upsampling thing...
Best,
Pat
Old 21st January 2010
  #317
Moderator
 
matt thomas's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post
Really? When I do this in cubase5 with delay compensation, it does not null. What sampling rate did you use? Maybe it is an upsampling thing...
Best,
Pat
Well thats strange, are you sure you didn't miss something? Maybe the VST behaves differently from the AU? Maybe the delat is not reported correctly? that wouldn't be right..

I used 44.1 (from memory)

I added a clarification to my post above. By "nulled 100%" I mean as far as the meters measure in logic. Nothing was
registering on the meters when the tracks were nulled, and I couldn't hear anything in my headphones. I didn't check it further.

EDIT: on closer inspection it is not a total null, see the next few posts! apologies to rob99

matt
Old 21st January 2010
  #318
Gear Maniac
 

i pulled the trigger and ordered the spl vitalizer plugin from mercenary audio......

installed it today. im loving it..hehheh

tried the demo and decided what the hell go for it..
Old 21st January 2010
  #319
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WunderBro Flo's Avatar
I only got it to null when deactivating the Active button...when it was on with the default settings I got no null...is your Active button on when you get the null?
Best,
Pat
Old 21st January 2010
  #320
Moderator
 
matt thomas's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildCowboys View Post
I only got it to null when deactivating the Active button...when it was on with the default settings I got no null...is your Active button on when you get the null?
Best,
Pat
It nulled, untill I twiddled some knobs, so it can't have been in bypass

Hang on, I'm just trying it again and now its not nulling, perhaps it was user error on my part, but I'm sure I had it right before, weird, I'll keep trying and post an update soon

edit: OK, its not nulling, there is a small amount of level showing on my sonalksis meter, but I can't hear it on headphones in the noisy environment I'm currently in. I think perhaps the track I was originally trying it on was too lower level, so the almost null appeared to be a full null.

I'm still trying some more

edit 2: yeah it is not a 100% null, sorry for claiming otherwise, I'll make sure to be more thorough in future! my apologies to Rob 99

matt
Old 30th January 2010
  #321
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lematrix's Avatar
Vitalizer is a bomb on BV Vocals.
Mixed this week an album where the BV´s where poor and dull recorded.
Vitalizer put life in to it.

GREAT !!!!!
Old 31st January 2010
  #322
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What other plugins can emulate passive LC filter designs?
I know Algorithmix Blue can do it.
Anything else?
Anyone done some comparisons?
Old 31st January 2010
  #323
Gear Guru
 
Animus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suda Badri View Post
Well Flux do a free stereo plug-in, expands like you would imagine any expander would... the Vitalizer hardware uses tubes in the widening circuit so that might be why chicane used it exclusively... but someone here posted the stereo widening does not emulate the tube stage yumminess.... but yeah dont buy the vitalizer only for the stereo widening, unless you rich! Flux stereo tool is a god sent for anyone on cubase pissed off about stereo tracks and their one slider panning...

Cheers,

Suda

You can change the pan behavior in Cubendo to have more than one pan slider.
Old 31st January 2010
  #324
Gear Guru
 
Animus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
And there are many people like me who agree with this statement
Yeah If you want to use up half of a i7 920.
Old 1st February 2010
  #325
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Suda Badri's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Animus View Post
You can change the pan behavior in Cubendo to have more than one pan slider.
TELL ME PLEASE! dont tell me I have to right click... dam mac i never thought of it...
Old 1st February 2010
  #326
Gear Guru
 
Animus's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suda Badri View Post
TELL ME PLEASE! dont tell me I have to right click... dam mac i never thought of it...
Yeah, right click on the panner area and you can choose from 3 types.
Old 31st January 2011
  #327
Gear Nut
 
amusic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by lematrix View Post
Vitalizer is a bomb on BV Vocals.
Mixed this week an album where the BV´s where poor and dull recorded.
Vitalizer put life in to it.

GREAT !!!!!
such in use?
Old 20th October 2011
  #328
Gear Head
 

Guys!

Just noticed that the Stereo Expander on this thing almost leaves the phase INTACT!!

Try Listening in Mono while messing around with it... Nothing happens!!

While the Flux or Waves Stereo Imager spoil the mono.

Anyone noticed that too?

Old 20th October 2011
  #329
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javahut's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crashdown View Post
Guys!

Just noticed that the Stereo Expander on this thing almost leaves the phase INTACT!!

Try Listening in Mono while messing around with it... Nothing happens!!

While the Flux or Waves Stereo Imager spoil the mono.

Anyone noticed that too?

Wow! Thanks for that. Never thought about it really, but good to know. It's still one of the few plug-ins I'll use on the 2 buss when I get towards the end of a mix. I really like what it does to the low end and stereo separation/enhancement when used judiciously... especially for eletronic type music that's meant to surround you and have big sub low end.
Old 30th September 2012
  #330
Gear Nut
 
Retrospekta's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spl_support View Post
The Vitalizer plug-in does EXACTLY what the original MK2t hardware does, including the mid notches (that´s part of the wanted sound).
Dirk.
i fail to see the benefit of this, its rather a deal breaker... imho...

PD: i am seeing this thread because i found a mk2t second hand and was interested in finding out about it.. but why would you want to have something in your signal chain that is not actually only doing what it should do?
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