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Soundelux E47C
Old 5th September 2005
  #1
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Soundelux E47C

More expensive than the E47. Not clear what the distinctions are, precisely, or whether this indicates that the E47 is now discontinued and replaced.

http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2005/E47C.html

--- c
Old 5th September 2005
  #2
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themaidsroom's Avatar
 

i'm curious. i have a lot of faith in david bock. i have seven soundelux mics, unfortunately,
i'm a bit broke right now to make it eight...... i wonder if the tube change will also work in
the original e-47....
they don't really say what the differences are, do they ??

i'd like mr. bock to make the e-67, and then some small diaphram tube mics.......two
years ago he said he has the 67 on his list, but that it would have to be quite expensive......




be well


- jack
Old 5th September 2005 | Show parent
  #3
" the E47C features a NOS Telefunken Large Plate EF814k tube for delivering unique vintage amplification and dynamics response"

I have never heard of sucha tube..... ?!? $5,500 thats the same price as a Neumann U47....
Old 6th September 2005 | Show parent
  #4
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Hi Lindell,

There was actually a mistake in the Press Release. The E47C retails at $4250, a little less than the E47.

The E47C has a new power supply, better transformer and better tube. It sounds much better, but the trade off is getting rid of the multi-pattern mode. However, since the vast majority of owners use 47s in cardioid-only mode, we don't feel that that is a huge issue.
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #5
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddP
Hi Lindell,

There was actually a mistake in the Press Release. The E47C retails at $4250, a little less than the E47.

The E47C has a new power supply, better transformer and better tube. It sounds much better, but the trade off is getting rid of the multi-pattern mode. However, since the vast majority of owners use 47s in cardioid-only mode, we don't feel that that is a huge issue.

Much better??? "much better" than your own product? this doesn't sound like smart talk from the distributor, unless you want to disenfranchise those customers who spent no small amount of money on the original e47, and enter the "supersize it" sales world of "improved" and "new" and "much better". i own an e47, and i don't like hearing that. in fact, it kind of pisses me off.

regards,
rlnyc.
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #7
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Careful what you wish for

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlnyc
Much better??? "much better" than your own product? this doesn't sound like smart talk from the distributor, unless you want to disenfranchise those customers who spent no small amount of money on the original e47, and enter the "supersize it" sales world of "improved" and "new" and "much better". i own an e47, and i don't like hearing that. in fact, it kind of pisses me off.

regards,
rlnyc.
I respectfully submit that there are a couple of paradoxical logic loops in this statement. What you're suggesting is that (A) you don't want your sales people to be honest and (B) you don't want your manufacturers to progress. So what if the new mic is "much better"? This happens in the world of R&D: in fact, "much better" is the general goal of all R&D.

I own a '98 Camry and I presume the 2005 is much better. But y'know, my Camry runs fine, has a nice sound system, doesn't need a whole lot of maintenance, has a coupla scratches here and there, gets me from point a to point b. I'm not complaining. I'm also not consumed with envy of the 2005 Camrys and I probably won't be until my '98 gives up the ghost.

You own an E47, a fine and lovely microphone. I've used one, but do not own one. I assume you love it. Continue to love it and don't get pissed off that Soundelux is continuing to refine and innovate.

I own a Tone King Meteor II, which is, like, a fifth generation boutique guitar amplifier. I f**king love this amp. The designer, Mark Bartel, is an obsessive perfectionist genius who I admire a great deal. I fully expect a Meteor III to hit the market a couple of years from now.

I'll be both surprised and disappointed if it's not "much better."

Cheers,
Chad
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #8
Art
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlnyc
Much better??? "much better" than your own product? this doesn't sound like smart talk from the distributor, unless you want to disenfranchise those customers who spent no small amount of money on the original e47, and enter the "supersize it" sales world of "improved" and "new" and "much better". i own an e47, and i don't like hearing that. in fact, it kind of pisses me off.

regards,
rlnyc.
Well I see how you would be pissed. What does that mean "sounds much better"? Sounds like a sales pitch to me. If he said sounds "brighter or darker or fuller" that would be okay, has a different character. But saying your E47 is not nearly as good as our new mic which costs less would not make me feel too good. I do not even own a Soundelux Mic, but that statement made me a bit angry for the people who do. Do you ever hear Neumann saying well the U87 sounds better than the TLM 127? For that much money the E47 should not sound worse than any other mic, only have a different character and application. But "sounds much better" suggests that it almost always sounds better on every source and in every situation, and that doesn't seem possible, just a strange thing to say in my opinion.

Art
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #9
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Could an e47 be fitted with this NOS tele tube by soundelux? Just curious.
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #10
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Hmmm, seems like folks are having a bad day here.
I must say to those that consider us hustlers : we are intimnately involved with product development and planning, far more than any other "distributor" you know. That's what makes us different and what makes people hire us instead of someone else (or doing it themselves). We try very hard to do the right thing and to avoid the "sales hype" thing. But we do get paid by selling things so I guess there is no way to avoid the label. I believe you can sell stuff by educating and being honest and many in our industry do not. So the TransAudio plan has always been to be sincere and as fair as possible. We specialize in supporting and providing gear to the full time working engineers in both live and recording and we are pretty good at it. They won't have any BS or hype being laid at their feet. Heck, we just sold George Massenburg his montoring rig. That doesn't happen if you BS.

So on to "why" the change.

First of all, the cost of construction on the E47 was sprialing up out of control. That mic would be 5500 if we kept doing it as it was. I believe it would become a tough sell at that price and that's not what Soundelux is supposed to do. It supposed to deliver extreme value. So due to inredible cost increases in metal and other parts it became necessary to do "something".

Next, some users have complained the mic is a bit too bright. That is because the mic was designed to fulfill all its features, fixed cardioid AND variable pattern. It wa originally used in variable at distance on orchestra and some still use it that way(Allan Myerson the scoring guy uses variable E47's for cello and orchestra apps). Here it needs more top end. There are design issues and costs when you are trying to build a good figure of 8 AND omni AND cardioid. In truth, the E47 mic is used mostly in cardioid for male vocals and we think about 98% of the E47's we have shipped are used in cardioid. So while the previous mic had to work well in variable pattern mode (a very different app than male vocals) we see that as being perhaps not so important to most owners. So the new mic (E47c) is a dedicated cardioid , so we can optimize everything for that pattern and that app. We can work on the response a bit to retain that 47 sound but make it BETTER for vocals, males specifically AND control costs a lot as we are realseaed from ahving to be good at things most folks never use.

That shed some light? David is still refining it so we are short on some technical details. We are not BS'ing or trying to hustle you. But when David tells me that the E47c sounds even more like the tube 47 he wanted for vocals, I believe him. I believe him enough to tell Todd that the new mic is better and to have Todd tell you that its better. So if your feathers are ruffled by the "better" thing, then blame me. I just don't think its a real good idea for us to introduce a new mic without it being an improvement over the old one-David agrees and has committed to that imporovement, so I know it will be "better" or perhaps to be exactly correct, "better suited to male vocals in cardioid".

Brad
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #11
Hi Brad,

There is one thing that I don't understand. All this talk about cardioid, brightness, vocals etc, Isn't the "E47" suppose to be a Neumann "U47" CLONE? Shouldn't you try to achieve a true U47 sound then? Hence the name "47". Or else you could just call the mic something else....

And also what is a Telefunken EF814k tube?
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Tel...&cop=&ei=UTF-8

http://www.google.se/search?hl=sv&q=...tnG=Sök&meta=

http://msxml.webcrawler.com/info.wbc.../-/-/-/417/top

Cheers
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindell
Hi Brad,

There is one thing that I don't understand. All this talk about cardioid, brightness, vocals etc, Isn't the "E47" suppose to be a Neumann "U47" CLONE? Shouldn't you try to achieve a true U47 sound then? Hence the name "47". Or else you could just call the mic something else....

Cheers
No we are NOT trying to build exact clones/eact replicas of these mics. That's impossible. We are trying to build sonic replicas-mics that sound like the favorite vintage versions. But there's an issue with that and here's why.

There is no mic that varies so much in sound as a 47. You can find 10 great ones that all sound very different. There were many build variations of the original, there were many levels of care by their owners, mods done, not done, tubes replaced, etc etc. It is quite difficult to assess the single precise target (the "true sound" as you call it) for a 47. Among engineers we find no agreement on which exact sound/tone /color is THE 47. They all have their favorite one. So what Soundelux/David Bock has done is to build what he thinks is the exact right one based on experience from Hit Factory, Hyde Street, Ocean Way etc and what the engineers working in the rooms said they wanted to use over and over. David knows these mics. We also do proto demos with golden ears in LA, reantla hosues in LA that have old 47's and elsewhere to get a feel for how close to the target we are. When David is happy, usually most people are.

To fully replicate an exact duplicate of a 47 today would cost more than anyone would pay. It would be impossible to replicate everything inside exactly as it was for many parts are impossible to find/build/buy/etc. We've certainly seen that with the 251 too. Even the original factory can't do it. There are couple of individuals out there with NOS parts and tubes building a 47, but even that is is in very very short supply.

I'll talk to David about the tube thing and post later. I want to be sure I undersand it exactly right befoire I say anything.


Brad
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #13
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larry zip's Avatar
 

in the story on harmony central all they atlk about is how it sounds like a u47 and how its the mic sinatra and led zeppelin used and here your saying that its not a like a u47 and that you sold stuff to george massenburg so we whould trust you. so is it a 47 like sinatras or isnt it
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #14
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by larry zip
in the story on harmony central all they atlk about is how it sounds like a u47 and how its the mic sinatra and led zeppelin used and here your saying that its not a like a u47 and that you sold stuff to george massenburg so we whould trust you. so is it a 47 like sinatras or isnt it
come on, dude. let it go. brad has made his stance perfectly clear. we're all adults here, right? we can recognize a little bit of over-simplifying sales hype when we read it, right? so, yeah, the press release was a little bit on the "zingy" side. they're bringing a product to market and they're trying to generate interest. that's the deal. this is how the capitalist world operates. it's not fraud to reference classic music that people love in order to get people to buy your microphone. it's only fraud if you actually say "this is the exact microphone used by frank sinatra."

on this thread, brad & todd @ transaudio (and i don't know them personally, so it's not like i'm defending my friends) seem like they're going to great lengths to be specific and honest. if you're going to punish people for being straight shooters, consider the alternative.

re-read the posts. they're pretty comprehensive and straight-up. let's not generate needless (and tiresome!) friction.

-- c
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larry zip
in the story on harmony central all they atlk about is how it sounds like a u47 and how its the mic sinatra and led zeppelin used and here your saying that its not a like a u47 and that you sold stuff to george massenburg so we whould trust you. so is it a 47 like sinatras or isnt it
Please reread my post.

I said they are sonic replicas not clones. Saying it is a sonic replica would mean it sounds like a 47 yes? It however would be dishonest to say it is "exactly a 47" wouldn't it? For me to claim that it would mean it uses all the same parts as the original.

Maybe you should listen to a really great vintage 47 from a LA/Nashville rental shop and then try the E47c. Then you'll understand what Soundelux is all about.

Brad
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #16
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Zarathustra's Avatar
 

I also find this development incredibly irritating. I was getting close to picking up a second e47, to be used in multi-pattern orchestral applications, as well as close vocals. So now basically what I have is an inferior version of the e47, which will be very difficult to sell.

Brad -- Is David willing to buy back his 'flawed' design, so we can invest in a microphone that will still be available in a year, or 10?? Seriously... I feel swindled.

Z
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #17
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max cooper's Avatar
 

Yeah, you guys! Stop getting better at making microphones!
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #18
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Greg Heimbecker's Avatar
Zarathustra foamed:
Quote:
Brad -- Is David willing to buy back his 'flawed' design, so we can invest in a microphone that will still be available in a year, or 10?? Seriously... I feel swindled.
Did you actually read the press release? How is your e47 flawed? It is a variation not a replacement. I'd still buy a second e47 because I find it so very usefull. Much respect to David Bock for the fine work he's been doing to provide us with killer tools. My e47 and elux 251 work CONSTANTLY around here. I need another of each...
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #19
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
I also find this development incredibly irritating. I was getting close to picking up a second e47, to be used in multi-pattern orchestral applications, as well as close vocals. So now basically what I have is an inferior version of the e47, which will be very difficult to sell.

Brad -- Is David willing to buy back his 'flawed' design, so we can invest in a microphone that will still be available in a year, or 10?? Seriously... I feel swindled.

Z


Nobody said it was flawed. The current U99 has gone through 3 incarnations(Remember the U95, NOT the U95S, from around 1998? That's the Grandaddy of the U99B). Evolution happens. Actually, what you have in the older model according to what Brad said (and which is in concurrence with what David Bock said to me at the Tape Op show)....is a brighter, slightly cleaner, multipattern version of what the new E47C is going to be. The market has asked for a slightly darker, more colored version. 9/10 people have said they only use it in cardiod, so it would make sense that they go with what the majority of people have asked for. Remember too, that the U95S was the predecessor of the E47, the U95S was a great mic too (an example that is analogous to this exact situation).
Old 7th September 2005
  #20
DDD
Gear Nut
 

"There is no mic that varies so much in sound as a 47. You can find 10 great ones that all sound very different. There were many build variations of the original."

Well, there goes the neighborhood...now all the these Vintage 47 guys are going to try to get there dough back. Sinatra is probably really pissed. Piece, 3d
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #21
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Quote:
in the story on harmony central all they atlk about is how it sounds like a u47 and how its the mic sinatra and led zeppelin used and here your saying that its not a like a u47 and that you sold stuff to george massenburg so we whould trust you. so is it a 47 like sinatras or isnt it
What makes you think that the U47s that Sinatra and Zeppelin used sound exactly alike?

I think it says something that George Massenburg not only trusts Transamerica to buy his monitoring system from, but to sell his products as well.

Quote:
So now basically what I have is an inferior version of the e47, which will be very difficult to sell.

Brad -- Is David willing to buy back his 'flawed' design, so we can invest in a microphone that will still be available in a year, or 10?? Seriously... I feel swindled.
Your e47 is as good as it was when you bought it. You're obviously happy with it if you were considering picking up a second one. There's nothing "flawed" about it, especially if you're part of that small percentage who use it for orchestral stuff. Maybe you'll be able to get a good deal on one of the older ones...in fact, maybe that's why you threw the word 'flawed' out there, so people get scared and try to get rid of their e47's before word gets out so you can get your second one cheap.

I'm kidding of course.

-Duardo
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #22
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Allright, I was foaming. I'm sorry. I love the mic, like a child. But I feel strongly that anything called a 47 is not meant to evolve, it is by definition a de-evolution. The best achievement of a past era. The capsule, power supply, transformer, and tube should be put together carefully enough that nothing "much better" pops up in a few years.

Why does my child have to ride on the short bus?

Z
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #23
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Very interesting

This has been an interesting insight into a particular kind of insecure psychology. People apparently feel they need to be reassured that what they're using is the Best In The World. Suddenly a microphone that someone was happy with is inferior once this person becomes aware that there is a later model. It's an idea that has never occurred to me. For mixing, I use a Manley 16x2 console and I love it. I have no interest in comparing it to similar products or looking left or right. I love it and I'm happy with what it does. It has its own sound. I have some API outboard EQs and I love 'em so much that I sometimes wonder what an API board would sound like here in our studio. (I'm sure it would be great.) Then I think: "Nah, I'm happy with the Manley. Back to work!"

This reminds me of a Fugazi song called "Birthday Pony."

"...I opened up these accounts / All these separate accounts / Because I can't comprehend the single ride to the end..."

Stop the madness. Go make music.

Cheers,
C
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lindell
" the E47C features a NOS Telefunken Large Plate EF814k tube for delivering unique vintage amplification and dynamics response"

I have never heard of sucha tube..... ?!? $5,500 thats the same price as a Neumann U47....

The price was an error, we correted that already. US$4250 MSRP

Quote:
"The EF814K is a NOS tube that DOES offer the performance we were looking for. It is my job to find tubes that make sense for my microphone applications. Not everyone will know the tube, but that's why they are still available." David Bock

Brad
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #25
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It's my clients that need re-assurance. I can already hear this conversation with an insecure singer. They read that F#@%ing Sweetwater catalog cover to cover.
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
It's my clients that need re-assurance. I can already hear this conversation with an insecure singer. They read that F#@%ing Sweetwater catalog cover to cover.
Tell them you have a collector's item now.
Brad
Old 7th September 2005 | Show parent
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Lunde
Tell them you have a collector's item now.
Brad
Thanks Braaad..... Want to buy an Atari 2600?
Old 8th September 2005 | Show parent
  #28
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well i don't want a darker, warmer version of the e47

so it looks like i'm in luck
especially if the prices drop on the non-c e47's

so i can pick up a few more
Old 8th September 2005 | Show parent
  #29
Art
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Hi Brad, are there any dealers who currently have stock of the E47? How are they going to sell them when there is a cheaper mic from the same company which is "much better"? Just Curious. Brad, your explanation seems logical enough, but the "much better" thing still is not all that clear to me. Not a big deal, don't own any of the Sndlx mics. Oh, how did you save money in making this mic compared to the E47?

Art
Old 8th September 2005 | Show parent
  #30
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i don't understand how you can call a mic much better
sounds more like a u47 okay...much better?

i happen to like the high end of the e47, the thickness of the mids...

suits me perfectly
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