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Soundelux E47C
Old 8th September 2005 | Show parent
  #31
Gear Addict
 
rlnyc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Lunde
Hmmm, seems like folks are having a bad day here.
Brad
i am not having a bad day. you are.

one of your people (todd p) has made a really stupid comment and you are backing him up.

i doubt david bock wants to refer to his new microphone as "much better" than one of his earlier mics. kind of makes him out to be an clueless idiot.

i have great respect for david and his line and i own several of his microphones and i would likely buy more of the soundelux mics, but not if his representation keeps talking that bee-bo talk.

and you are shooting yourself in the foot if you continue to slag those of us who notice a really stupid just off the boat sales pitch from your employee and call him on it. are you really gonna continue to tell us that we are the ones who are having a bad day?

if it is a great mic just say so. NOTHING is ever going to improve on the design of the neumann u47 which all of these mics are based on. so if david has found a way to get closer, or has found a way to please those who have asked for a darker mic and if presenting it as a cartioid only allows the introduction of some elements that makes you jump for joy then just say that. but for christ's sake, you better leave off the "much better" language, or you are going to end up with a soundelux marketing which sounds like just another wanna-be in the endless "i got a better copy of an existing mic" lottery.

i can't imagine that david bock would be happy with todd's sales pitch, or with your endorsment of it. it might be better for you to back off and practice some diplomacy.

best regards,
rlnyc
Old 8th September 2005 | Show parent
  #32
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlnyc
i am not having a bad day. you are.

one of your people (todd p) has made a really stupid comment and you are backing him up.

i doubt david bock wants to refer to his new microphone as "much better" than one of his earlier mics. kind of makes him out to be an clueless idiot.

i have great respect for david and his line and i own several of his microphones and i would likely buy more of the soundelux mics, but not if his representation keeps talking that bee-bo talk.

and you are shooting yourself in the foot if you continue to slag those of us who notice a really stupid just off the boat sales pitch from your employee and call him on it. are you really gonna continue to tell us that we are the ones who are having a bad day?

if it is a great mic just say so. NOTHING is ever going to improve on the design of the neumann u47 which all of these mics are based on. so if david has found a way to get closer, or has found a way to please those who have asked for a darker mic and if presenting it as a cartioid only allows the introduction of some elements that makes you jump for joy then just say that. but for christ's sake, you better leave off the "much better" language, or you are going to end up with a soundelux marketing which sounds like just another wanna-be in the endless "i got a better copy of an existing mic" lottery.

i can't imagine that david bock would be happy with todd's sales pitch, or with your endorsment of it. it might be better for you to back off and practice some diplomacy.

best regards,
rlnyc
Well put. U47s had changes in parts during its run and that has also added to differences in sound. That being said, Brad makes some great mics.
Old 8th September 2005 | Show parent
  #33
member no 666
 
Fletcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art
Hi Brad, are there any dealers who currently have stock of the E47? How are they going to sell them when there is a cheaper mic from the same company which is "much better"? Just Curious.
It wouldn't be the first time old Brad has thrown the dealer network under the bus... especially when it comes to Soundelux.

We have "vintage" E-47's if anybody wants to add one before they all disappear...
Old 8th September 2005 | Show parent
  #34
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlnyc
i am not having a bad day. you are.

<SNIP>
best regards,
rlnyc
rlnyc: You know what, I WAS having a bad day. Sorry to offend. Didn't mean to call you out or just defend poeple blindly but all Todd said was it was much better. Didn't think that a single "much" word could upset. We'll refrain from saying that in future. Thanks for the heads up.

David has told us this new mic is closer to the cardioid 47 target since he didn't have to worry about other patterns. That's the word from the man himself and sorry if I "packaged it" wrong.

Brad
Old 8th September 2005 | Show parent
  #35
Gear Addict
 
rlnyc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Lunde
rlnyc: You know what, I WAS having a bad day. Sorry to offend. Didn't think that a single "much" word could upset. We'll refrain from saying that in future. Thanks for the heads up.

David has told us this new mic is closer to the cardioid 47 target since he didn't have to worry about other patterns. That's the word from the man himself and sorry if I "packaged it" wrong.

Brad
brad,

i appreciate it. your original longer post explained alot about how the e47c came into being, some of the facts i already knew.

i heard about a year ago that soundelux was going to re-tool the 47 into a cartioid only format, because it was getting too expensive to maintain the e47 as it was. so one very real reason to remake the mic had to do with costs. at the same time, if the designer can benefit from a chance to improve the mic in the single pattern it is going to offer, and look for a better transformer etc..., then it makes sense to do all that and to describe it as "better suited to male vocals" or "closer to the cartioid 47 target". in fact, terrific. because if soundelux has to adjust the price point down, that usually means that the mic is going to suffer from cheaper parts and tooling. that's how 90% of the manufacturers do it -make a great product and then cheapen it while claiming that it is "new and improved". you know that's how it usually works. and if you use the language that they all use in their campaigns, then...

but if david bock uses that moment to actually improve his product line, it's a testament to his company's integrity and their desire to bring really finely built microphones to the marketplace. if that's the case (and i believe that it is), then anyone representing that effort has to be very careful about how they handle the public relations, to maintain that integrity though and through.

there are tremendous things which can be said about the new mic which are true and honest representations of how and why there have been changes made to the e47 which wouldn't denigrate the version which is being replaced. if there had been a mistake and the e47 was crappy and suddenly it was going to be vastly improved upon then yes, much better would be the way to go. but that's not the case. the e47 is a great mic and should hold it's value or even go up, because of the understanding that costs of manufacture made it too much of a bargain at it's price point.

that way, customers who bought the e47 would understand that they own a quality mic built at the absolutely highest standard possible - so high in fact, that it couldn't be maintained, and at the same time, presenting the new e47c as benefiting from a chance to change some of it's components and develop an improved single pattern 47. everybody wins, and without any hucksterism.

very best regards,
rlnyc
Old 8th September 2005 | Show parent
  #36
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
Interesting thread.

I can understand both sides of the debate, but I think it is all a bit too serious.

I do agree that maybe it is a mistake to say that the new version is "much better", as this implies that there is a problem with the original. Perhaps it would have been better to say that some adjustments were made based on user feedback.

But those owning the original, did you like it before this thread came up? Does it sound any different because of this discussion? You liked it or you didn't, that shouldn't change.

Every microphone has it's own unique qualities, I'm sure the original will be better suited sometimes than the "new" version.

On a side note, I did own the U99 for a little while, a very fine microphone, but a bit too bright for my taste. Maybe a similar situation with the E47 that was "adjusted"?
Old 8th September 2005 | Show parent
  #37
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
I do agree that maybe it is a mistake to say that the new version is "much better", as this implies that there is a problem with the original. Perhaps it would have been better to say that some adjustments were made based on user feedback.
I thought it was cleared up when Brad said in his first post "perhaps to be exactly correct, 'better suited to male vocals in cardioid'"...

-Duardo
Old 8th September 2005 | Show parent
  #38
Gear Addict
 
rlnyc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great

I can understand both sides of the debate, but I think it is all a bit too serious.

i agree i am too serious, and am ready to let it go. enough has been said. i feel protective of soundelux. i own several of their mics and consider them one of the best mic manufacturers. i think it would be really sad if they suffered from marketing gaffs, and i am sure there are other ways to say what they want to say. but for me, i'm movin on. i love my e47. my enjoyment and almost daily use of that mic is not threatened by anything that has been said.

regards,
rlnyc
Old 8th September 2005 | Show parent
  #39
Lives for gear
 
Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

I'm kinda astounded by the degree of emotion invested in this thread. This was not a major crisis. War, famine, plagues (hurricanes): these things are crises. A new cardioid microphone is just... well... not.

- c
Old 9th September 2005 | Show parent
  #40
Gear Addict
 

i will so not be suprised when 15 yrs down the line the soundelux e47 original will be a highly sought after variable pattern variation of the u47!!!!
Old 9th September 2005 | Show parent
  #41
Lives for gear
 
zarembo's Avatar
 

Soundelux fever, catch it!

I'm enjoying this thread IMMENSe47LY.

floods and hurricanes and stolen elections cut each of us to the core, but

it sure is FUN to see some of the slutz get all worked up over tube mics.

It cracks me up too because we tried the e47 with all the others in the Soundelux
line and passed on it. (maybe I should get two of Fletcher's before they're all snatched up)

Thanks so much to everyone for sharing their knowledge, opinions, critical insights,
and emotions with all things audio gear and related.

Oh, and thank you for letting me lurk around the edges and add my .2
Old 9th September 2005 | Show parent
  #42
Lives for gear
 
Mind-Over-Midi's Avatar
 

Maybe this should be in another thread, I'm not sure, but how does the new E251c: http://news.harmony-central.com/Newp/2005/E251C.html figure into this? Does it replace the ELUX 251, or is it an addition to the 251 suite? What about the E 250 is it staying or going?

Thanks,

Bill.
Old 9th September 2005 | Show parent
  #43
Gear Maniac
 

Just to clear up some of the facts without sales weasling:
1) The E47C is an evolution. No, we didn't cut costs on things that matter like components, transformers, capsules, & psu's. Mostly an internal metalwork change. Still all USA metalwork so it costs more than imported would. I'm not comfortable enough to put cheap components in an expensive product.
2) Obviously E47's aren't bad, if they were we wouldn't have sold so many. But the nature of manufacturing is somewhat fluid, so it had to evolve. Hell, Neumann used two distinct types of capsules, two distinct xfmrs, and two distinct tubes and still just called it a U47 over the product life!
3) The E251C does not replace the ELUX 251, it's just the cardioid only version of it. Same Capsule, same Tube, same psu, very slightly different xfmr but still an expensive four section large core job, still not cheap. Different body, you save $$$ if you don't need patterns or extreemeee resolution from 30-10Hz.
Thanks for all your support, with it we have grown and made better and better products. Really.
Sincerely,
David Bock
Soundelux Microphones
Hollywood, CA
Old 10th September 2005 | Show parent
  #44
Lives for gear
 
Mind-Over-Midi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbock
Just to clear up some of the facts without sales weasling:
1) The E47C is an evolution. No, we didn't cut costs on things that matter like components, transformers, capsules, & psu's. Mostly an internal metalwork change. Still all USA metalwork so it costs more than imported would. I'm not comfortable enough to put cheap components in an expensive product.
2) Obviously E47's aren't bad, if they were we wouldn't have sold so many. But the nature of manufacturing is somewhat fluid, so it had to evolve. Hell, Neumann used two distinct types of capsules, two distinct xfmrs, and two distinct tubes and still just called it a U47 over the product life!
3) The E251C does not replace the ELUX 251, it's just the cardioid only version of it. Same Capsule, same Tube, same psu, very slightly different xfmr but still an expensive four section large core job, still not cheap. Different body, you save $$$ if you don't need patterns or extreemeee resolution from 30-10Hz.
Thanks for all your support, with it we have grown and made better and better products. Really.
Sincerely,
David Bock
Soundelux Microphones
Hollywood, CA

Thanks for taking the time to clarify, but what about the e250? How does that mic fit into all of this?

Bill.
Old 10th September 2005 | Show parent
  #45
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbock
Just to clear up some of the facts without sales weasling:

< snipped >


Sincerely,
David Bock
Soundelux Microphones
Hollywood, CA

Thanks for the update David. If you ever need someone to try one of your new mics out fer ya, I'm here! heh
Old 10th September 2005 | Show parent
  #46
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbock
......
And what about the Telefunken EF814k tube? There is no sucha thing huh......
Old 10th September 2005 | Show parent
  #47
Gear Maniac
 

e250

Unfortunately the e250 will be discontinued.
DB
Old 11th September 2005 | Show parent
  #48
Gear Addict
 
Zarathustra's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbock
Unfortunately the e250 will be discontinued.
DB
When will Brad Lunde be discontinued? Couldn't happen too soon.

Z
Old 11th September 2005 | Show parent
  #49
Gear Addict
 

whats so wrong with Brad?
Old 12th September 2005 | Show parent
  #50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarathustra
When will Brad Lunde be discontinued? Couldn't happen too soon.

Z
Yeah what is wrong with Brad? Always seems like a straight shooter to me?

Anyway so David or Brad can you give us any details why the e250 is getting bumped?

I was just (and I mean like today or tomorrow) going to pick one up.

Was it not selling or is it getting harder to manufacture? Will their be any discounted prices? If I get one will I be able to get it serviced down the road? Will the price of the e250 be around the price of the e251 and what exactly is the difference between them (sorry if you covered that earlier in this thread, I will go back and look now).

Thanks guys.....
Old 12th September 2005 | Show parent
  #51
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by not_so_new
<SNIP>
Anyway so David or Brad can you give us any details why the e250 is getting bumped?

I was just (and I mean like today or tomorrow) going to pick one up.

Was it not selling or is it getting harder to manufacture? Will their be any discounted prices? If I get one will I be able to get it serviced down the road? Will the price of the e250 be around the price of the e251 and what exactly is the difference between them (sorry if you covered that earlier in this thread, I will go back and look now).

Thanks guys.....
David's vision for E250 was a male rock vocal mic. We've received great comments on it. Terrific reviews in Tape Op and EQ on the E250. Great mid tone and sounds terrific in a mix.

David has recently figured out how to get the E250 mic closer to a cardioid ELUX251. He's also figured out how to shoehorn in a "light/dark" switch, to give users more flexibility to sound like an ELUX251 (light) or a E250 (dark). Price is intended to be around US$3250, up from 3K for E250. Body will be the same as E250.

Will E250's get cheaper? I would not think so. They are 3K and we are back ordered on them as it is. These like all Soundelux mics are built by hand so there wll be no "close out" or anything like that. They are in production until the E251C is ready.

Late fall/Winter delivery?? Still waiting for information.


All Soundelux mics are servicable, past and present. I don't think you have any worries about this.

Brad
Old 13th September 2005 | Show parent
  #52
Gear Addict
 

yeah guys everyone who has an e47 needs to stop freaking out
if you like the mic, you like the mic
so some of the guys think the e47c sounds better, but they said it's a whole nother color...
some people like u67's some people like u47s

i hear fletcher usually praising the e49 over the e47, does that mean the people who bought an e47 from him should be pissed? NO they liked the e47 and they might like the e49 too

they're different mics, anyone in my opinion who has an e47 got a great deal

and someones opinion can't take that away from you

don't be so rough on these guys in the industry
Old 13th September 2005 | Show parent
  #53
Rep
Lives for gear
 
Rep's Avatar
Thats right, the e47 is great....
that said ,I thought the E49 was a lot bigger and better then all the other
ones 47/ 251 that I did a shoutout with ,
and keept the 49
Old 17th September 2005 | Show parent
  #54
Gear Maniac
 
DaveH's Avatar
Cautious hope:

I will receive one of the “new” E47C’s next week.
Timing was a few weeks off. I’ve heard the E47, but not the E47C.
(Didn’t realize there was a switch between models going on.)

What has me concerned is the “E47” price “it was getting too expensive to maintain the e47 as it was.”

So I would rather be in the position of having one of the multi pattern E47’s
rather then the “price reduced” /”function reduced” E47C’s.

I am hopeful that I will “love” what I hear. And really hope that
this was a “real” improvement and not just a way to keep cost down.

Yikes, the cost!

DaveH
Old 17th September 2005 | Show parent
  #55
Gear Addict
 
rlnyc's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveH
I will receive one of the “new” E47C’s next week.
Timing was a few weeks off. I’ve heard the E47, but not the E47C.
(Didn’t realize there was a switch between models going on.)

What has me concerned is the “E47” price “it was getting too expensive to maintain the e47 as it was.”

So I would rather be in the position of having one of the multi pattern E47’s
rather then the “price reduced” /”function reduced” E47C’s.

I am hopeful that I will “love” what I hear. And really hope that
this was a “real” improvement and not just a way to keep cost down.

Yikes, the cost!

DaveH
i am the poster who wrote the sentence which you quote and personally i have no fear that the new cartioid mic will be reduced quality. in fact, i think it is likely that it will be dynamite.

i have nothing to do with soundelux except for the fact that i own some of their microphones and have demoed some others. in fact, i am one of those who have an e47 and who have never used it in anything but cartioid. i tried opening it up once to change the pattern but backed out. it requires going into the guts of the mic and i just lost nerve.

the thing that got me was that i believe soundelux is a great microphone manufacturer and i didn't think they needed to resort to the kind of "bigger better all new improved supersize" language that other manufacturers use when they downgrade (or retool) their manufacturing process. i feel that an honest representation of the reasons for a change would serve the company better in the long run in reputation, and i said so. but i believe them if they say they took the opportunity to improve the mic. in fact, i would jump at the chance to try one of these new mics if i didn't already own the perfect mic for my voice. (the e47).

but i am expecting the new mic to be of the same high quality as their other offerings, and i hope to hear good things after you get yours and run it through some paces.

good luck,
rlnyc
Old 17th September 2005 | Show parent
  #56
Lives for gear
 

I find that cardiod-only mics have limited value for me. Having multiple patterns opens the mic up to many more possibilities and uses. I love that the soundelux mics can change patterns variably and without switching noise. With straight up vocals you can dial in the amount of proximity effect with the pattern select knob, something that you'll lose with a cardiod only mic.

I wish that David and Brad would continue the e47 (non c) even if it means that they would have to bump up the price. I'm really glad that I got the muti-pattern mic while it was available.

Hey rlny, I moded my e47 to multipattern. It wasn't difficult at all and I'd be happy to help you with it.
Old 19th September 2005 | Show parent
  #57
Gear Maniac
 
DaveH's Avatar
Smile Good news, for me anyway.

As mentioned I am get an e47c in next couple of days.
When if fact I had ordered an E47. (Didn't know about impending change.)

Just got off phone with dealer and they are sending me an E47 to do a side
by side test with the e47c. (I get to send back the one I don’t want.)

I hope there is a clear winner. What scares me is that if there is a big enough
difference I might want both? (No, I can’t!)
Old 20th September 2005 | Show parent
  #58
Here for the gear
 
Les Issmore's Avatar
 

I have to agree with Jan about cardioid only mics being of little value. Once I oet past the beginnings of microphone use I found myself working in omni and figure 8 more than cardioid.

Is it just me, or does Soundelux change their models more often than their underwear?
Old 20th September 2005 | Show parent
  #59
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Issmore
I have to agree with Jan about cardioid only mics being of little value. Once I oet past the beginnings of microphone use I found myself working in omni and figure 8 more than cardioid.

<SNIP>
Les:
This is a great thing that you explore the other patterns. I wish more people did! The subtle and not so subtle tonal differences in pattern changes are a less used "feature" today than they used to be when the engineers had far fewer mics to work with. BUT I disagree that "cardioid only" mics are of little value. They are extremely important to vocal duties on a large percentage of records, a large percentage of famous recordings we all think of as benchmarks used a 47 in fixed cardioid. Frank Sinatra is a good off the cuff example.

99% of tube U47's out there, past and present, are set internally to fixed cardioid; this is how they were and are used day in day out. That famous sound of the tube 47 is because "fixed" cardioid in this case means the rear capsule is turned off and there is tremendous proximity effect as a result; that's how you get that larger than life low end and a HUGE vocal sound.

Since we're involved in almost every E47 sale and the place all the Soundelux dealers call for info, I can tell you the reality is we've only had a very small number of requests (under 10) to have Soundelux set up a E47 for variable from the factory. I've heard from dealers about maybe another 10 that were switched in the field to variable from cardioid mode. [The switch is inside the mic]. Maybe I'm wrong on the number, but I'm not that far wrong. Variable E47's were a very unusual sale for Soundelux.

I don't think people buy/rent/want 47's for variable duties, they want them for male (and some female) "fixed cardioid" vocal duties. Not that E47's don't work well in variable, they do, but there's plenty of other mics that do THAT. Soundelux makes an array of variable tube mics: ELUX251's (switchable), E49's variable, U99's variable. These cover a wide range of variable applications. But only the E47 in fixed cardioid sounds the way it does on vocals.

The original E47 design had elements in it to make it excellent in fixed cardioid AND variable that drove the price up. Production/metal/parts cost increases have been a nightmare in late 2004/2005. Raising the price on an E47 to the stratosphere to cover an application very few use-when we are commited to keep prices down-seemed like a bad idea. Do we really have that idea wrong? It seems like our customers want to save money on mics-not spend more. The "fixed cardioid" tube 47 is a very important microphone to music and recording, that was and is our main target. It is our job to try and figure out how to preserve this performance/advantage/value for future Soundelux customers; its also our charge to improve on it whenever possible. This is what led us to the E47C.

The E47C is shipping now and the E47's from the factory are gone. Those that own E47's now have a unique item that will only increase in value. It would cost over 5500 retail to continue with the E47 as it was. The E47C at 4250 MSRP seems exactly the right thing to do. David Bock is pretty sure you will really like the E47C. I'm proud of him for pulling it out and keeping "that sound" and the price together. In early 2005 it looked pretty bleak, like a MAJOR price increase was inevitable!

Brad
Old 24th September 2005 | Show parent
  #60
Gear Nut
 
Jeroleen's Avatar
 

Hey now I own a real "vintage" mic. In fact, I am the original owner of a vintage mic that is no longer manufactured.
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