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ShinyBox Ribbon Mics
Old 1st January 2006
  #61
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AdamJay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARude
...and then there's the Motown bass drum micing trick. Anyone else know it?
are you referring to making a sort of "tent" between the front of the bass drum and the microphone... about 3 feet away, with the resonator head removed?
i've heard variations of this too, adding a 2nd mic in there, or even micing from the beat er side simultaneously.
Old 3rd January 2006
  #62
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ARude's Avatar
 

Motown Ribbon mk Bass Drum app.

Though I’ve posted this on another thread here is a quick summation:

The Motown guys would use a RCA 44BX, inside the bass drum, with the resonator head removed, on the beater. HOWEVER, they turned the null to the beater to avoid damaging the ribbon. The resulting sound is all shell, the signature heart beat early Motown sound. They did this ‘cause they were chronically short of mics and had to be creative. I learned this trick from Kenny Sands but I think the Ed Wolfram thought it up. Ed also used an Altec 15” speaker for a Bass Drum mic on the first Stevie Wonder album with a 600 ohm to 8 ohm line transformer used backwards to interface it to the console. Brilliant!.
Old 4th January 2006
  #63
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AdamJay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARude
Though I’ve posted this on another thread here is a quick summation:

The Motown guys would use a RCA 44BX, inside the bass drum, with the resonator head removed, on the beater. HOWEVER, they turned the null to the beater to avoid damaging the ribbon. The resulting sound is all shell, the signature heart beat early Motown sound. They did this ‘cause they were chronically short of mics and had to be creative. I learned this trick from Kenny Sands but I think the Ed Wolfram thought it up. Ed also used an Altec 15” speaker for a Bass Drum mic on the first Stevie Wonder album with a 600 ohm to 8 ohm line transformer used backwards to interface it to the console. Brilliant!.
i wonder if these ribbons, with a 165dB SPL, could take on more of the beater than the RCA 44BX. It would be interesting to get a little more tuned sound.
does anyone know the SPL of the 44BX?

and on that, my matched pair of ShinyBox 23C's shipped today
Old 7th January 2006
  #64
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fum,
are the transformers used on the 23C the "CMO-RCA44" ?

looks like you just sold out of 23C's, glad i got mine in time.
They'll be here monday it looks like, and i'll be posting a full review in due time.
Old 9th January 2006
  #65
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Jimbo's Avatar
Anybody used either the 23 or 46 on fiddle, mando or banjo?

My slut finger is starting to twitch

- Jim
Old 9th January 2006
  #66
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ShinyBox's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamJay
fum,
are the transformers used on the 23C the "CMO-RCA44" ?

looks like you just sold out of 23C's, glad i got mine in time.
They'll be here monday it looks like, and i'll be posting a full review in due time.
Nope, those sounded too much like the stock transformer to me.

Got another order in with Cinemag, will be a few days, at which point they'll be back in stock.

Regards

ju
Old 9th January 2006
  #67
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AdamJay's Avatar
 

recieved my matched pair of 23C's this morning.

general physical first impressions - pleasantly surprised.
the hard case is a bonus and the included 10ft. mic cable was a nice surprise.
the protective bag is very well padded, and if all i had to protect the mic was this bag i would not complain.

the logo appears to be etched in, i thought it was just transfered but i'm learning that i should not have sold ShinyBox short. The overall look of these is much less Nady/T.Bone than i anticipated. The XLR jack doesnt get in the way while rotating the stand mount and it makes for very simple placement.

my vocalist was visually impressed as well. and he is a Neumann *****.
i can already see him borrowing one of my 23C's for his location. good thing i got 2.

sonic first impressions (23C)...
i've only tried this on a hip hop vocalist and myself doing voice overs.
i'm pleased with the overall tone, once given a good bit of clean gain. placement was crucial though. with the vocalist i found that a 30 degree off axis rotation really smoothed out the lows but kept him "up front", but he does have an extremely deep and bassy voice.

i'll post more when i've tried these on more sources, but as it is now i'm quite happy with this $265 mic. if i had spent twice that for one i would still be happy with the value.

great work Fum.
can't wait for the pre!
Old 13th January 2006
  #68
bgc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo
Anybody used either the 23 or 46 on fiddle, mando or banjo?

My slut finger is starting to twitch

- Jim

Jim,

I had a great time with a couple of Shiny Box 46Ls today. I've been doing a record out in Seattle for a scottish fiddler and we've had trouble getting the right sound. This record runs from almost classical piano trios to heavy reels with banjo, bass, and drums. Our problems were not caused by budget. We're working in a fine studio with a beautiful U47, 2 67s, a Heyne-Mod 87, RCA 44 and 77, C24, 421s, 84s, etc. Nothing was quite open enough on top. We got the pair (hand delivered) and it was an instant hit. I've used Coles 4038s, beyer 160s, and Sakified 260DXs and have usually found that there's a honkiness that doesn't quite work for fiddle. I'm not sure if it's the more open grill but these don't suffer the same problem. If you're looking for the more colored sound that one would get from an RCA 44 you might do better with the 23C.

I've got some samples of the 46L next to an RCA 44 and the U47. All three mikes were put through neve 1066s. We ended up using a quasi-binaural pair of 46Ls for the bulk of the sound at about 5 ft with the 47 closer and in cardiod to make the sound more immediate on the aggresive numbers.

I'll try to post some samples when the dust clears. We're going to finish up tomorrow. I'll be leaving town immediately after with my new pair of 46Ls! I recommend them highly and want to thank john for bringing two of his kick ass mikes to the studio.


Eric
---------------------------------------
www.ericmerrill.com
Old 14th January 2006
  #69
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I have a pair of 121's and a pair of stock 46's. I work with some pretty picky guitars players, and when I put them side by side and let them choose, it has been the 46's most every time. Great on room mics, too. I may do the Cinemag update on a 23 that I also own, and if it's great, do the 46's too. Jon has been great to work with...
Old 14th January 2006
  #70
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BradM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by slantbar
I have a pair of 121's and a pair of stock 46's. I work with some pretty picky guitars players, and when I put them side by side and let them choose, it has been the 46's most every time. Great on room mics, too. I may do the Cinemag update on a 23 that I also own, and if it's great, do the 46's too. Jon has been great to work with...
I kind of found the same thing, especially for distored electric guitar. I personally like the 46 a little better since it doesn't need as much EQ to sound "right" to me. However on clean guitar I still pick the R121.

Drum room--yes!

Brad
Old 14th January 2006
  #71
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

So what about SPL's and ribbon stretching?

Remember that the whole hoopla over the R121 when it came out was its ability to take high SPL's w/o stretching the ribbon over time (like the Coles).

Will people be replacing Shiny Box ribbons (or the whole mic) after a few high SPL sessions?



Fleaman
Old 14th January 2006
  #72
Gear Addict
 

I got my stock 46 a few days ago.
Removed the mesh bag away.

First impressions are that it's a natural, warm-sounding mic.
However I noticed it needed up to 13db of EQ gain at around 12Khz to sound "right" on vocals. That is a LOT. I think the high-end is really rolled off on this.
The cool thing is, once you do that, it sounds a bit like a condenser but with zero sibilance whatsoever.
Anyone have any suggestions regarding adding more high-end naturally?
I was thinking about attempting to remove the metalic plate with holes which is bolted over top of the ribbon.
Old 14th January 2006
  #73
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgc
Jim,

I had a great time with a couple of Shiny Box 46Ls today. I've been doing a record out in Seattle for a scottish fiddler and we've had trouble getting the right sound.

I've got some samples of the 46L next to an RCA 44 and the U47. All three mikes were put through neve 1066s. We ended up using a quasi-binaural pair of 46Ls for the bulk of the sound at about 5 ft with the 47 closer and in cardiod to make the sound more immediate on the aggresive numbers.

I'll try to post some samples when the dust clears.
Eric
---------------------------------------
www.ericmerrill.com

Would love to hear the samples and hear how these sound on fiddle - I may have to get 'em
Dave
Old 14th January 2006
  #74
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thermos's Avatar
Dasbin,

have you tried turning the mic around and using the back? Just put the mic pre out of phase. That brings a whole hell of a lot of highs out.
I think the non stock transformers are brighter. I have the lundahl and its high response is pretty great. I have to add just a little bit of highs to get it right.
Old 15th January 2006
  #75
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasbin
I got my stock 46 a few days ago.
Removed the mesh bag away.

First impressions are that it's a natural, warm-sounding mic.
However I noticed it needed up to 13db of EQ gain at around 12Khz to sound "right" on vocals. That is a LOT. I think the high-end is really rolled off on this.
The cool thing is, once you do that, it sounds a bit like a condenser but with zero sibilance whatsoever.
Anyone have any suggestions regarding adding more high-end naturally?
I was thinking about attempting to remove the metalic plate with holes which is bolted over top of the ribbon.
Is this in comparison to another Ribbon mic you have on hand...or in comparing to another condenser mic?

Because if you are comparing to a condenser, then what you experienced above is not at all unusual for a Ribbon mic.

But yeah, like thermos said, try the back.



Fleaman
Old 15th January 2006
  #76
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleaman
Is this in comparison to another Ribbon mic you have on hand...or in comparing to another condenser mic?
Not comparing to any other particular mics. Just what it takes to make a vocal sound realistic and like they are there singing in front of you, rather than behind a heavy curtain somewhere, which is what it sounds like now.
Many condensers do happen to achieve this sound without EQ, yes.
And many dynamics only take a bit of EQ to achieve the right level of high-end.

I understand that ribbons are "supposed" to be darker but I don't understand how this at all a useful characteristic unless you specifically want something to sound like it is muffled.

I will try the back side, thanks for the tip guys.
Old 15th January 2006
  #77
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Fleaman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasbin
...The cool thing is, once you do that, it sounds a bit like a condenser but with zero sibilance whatsoever.
Useful characteristic?



Fleaman
Old 19th January 2006
  #78
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jerkrecords's Avatar
 

A few shots and vids of our 23L in action here:
http://www.theorb.org/worship/songs/cd.html
sorry, no audio clips yet. Will post later.

-pete
Old 23rd January 2006
  #79
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Jimbo's Avatar
Eric,

Thanks for the information. thumbsup I ordered a 46....I'm going to add the Lundahl myself.

I checked-out your website. Your music is right up my alley....I'm a folkie/bluegrasser myself. Try to get to the Philadelphia area if you can sometime. I'd like to see you perform.

- Jim
Old 24th January 2006
  #80
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man i would still love to hear some clips of the 46 on a electric guitar. preferably high gain where a 121 is supposed to be warm and "buttery". I'm thinking a 46L would do great for that...right guys using it on guitar? or a 23L?
Old 27th January 2006
  #81
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ShinyBox's Avatar
 

Hey,


so the holiday rush dun ran me out of "C" models, I'd gotten a bunch of messages asking when I'd have them in, so thought I'd follow up that they are available again.

And yes, I'm working on some new sound clips, as personally, they were done in no time and kind of leave some things to be desired


regards

ju
Old 27th January 2006
  #82
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AdamJay's Avatar
 

i'll be using a pair of 23C's through a Phoenix DRS-2 on a live recording job next month. (mic'ing a Rhodes 88, with original fender cabs, stereo tremolo)

will post mp3's when the time comes!
Old 27th January 2006
  #83
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GP_Hawk's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamJay
i'll be using a pair of 23C's through a Phoenix DRS-2 on a live recording job next month. (mic'ing a Rhodes 88, with original fender cabs, stereo tremolo)

will post mp3's when the time comes!
Can't you just print to vinyl this one time...I'll place my order
Old 9th February 2006
  #84
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timmcallister's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dasbin
I understand that ribbons are "supposed" to be darker but I don't understand how this at all a useful characteristic unless you specifically want something to sound like it is muffled.
One mans muffled is another mans smooth and creamy

I, for one, have grown tired of the hyped top end of the current crop of chinese mics and really like ribbons. I got a coles 4038 last year, and chose it over and AEA and Royer, cause the coles has a creamier top end (muffled????)

Hey, are you in Vancouver WA or BC? I'm in Vancouver WA.

its all good!
Old 9th February 2006
  #85
Gear Addict
 

It's not a case of hype vs. no-hype, it's that the ribbon is just so incredibly rolled-off with respect to a flat response in the highs that it no longer sounds realistic and present - it sounds like the vocalist's head is behind the wall in front of you rather than between the speakers in front of you like he ought to be.

I'm in Vanoucver BC, BTW.

The back of the mic is definitely better, but even then and with a good EQ boost in the highs I prefer one of several condenser on almost everything so far.
To its credit, the mic is incredibly inexpensive and in many cases on some sources it ALMOST holds its own against my whole line-up of condensers... but I have yet to find a case where it actually outdoes any of them in terms of getting any kind of sound that I would want to present on a record.
I can see it being useful in certain "problem" situations, like an over-bright guitar amp or sibilant singer, but only because its roll-off works around the problem - I would rather just fix the problem at the source (find a different cabinet, teach the singer proper technique or use the pencil trick) than have a mic that arbitrarily rolls off all the highs and lose all the goodness that's up there in the process.

I'm not dissing the mic at all. I'm sure plenty of people here will love it. I just don't find it to be pleasing to listen to versus other options on any source so far.

I should note that my studio is heavily treated so the high-end in here actually sounds good and is something you want to keep around.
Old 9th February 2006
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fum
so the holiday rush dun ran me out of "C" models, I'd gotten a bunch of messages asking when I'd have them in, so thought I'd follow up that they are available again.

ju
You guys are just up the road from me, maybe i should just call, but for the good of the board :-) I'll ask online.

From your site you state:

Cinemag
Cinemag output transformer installed in the 46 model, the frequency response of the microphone evens out, (emphasis added) while extending the hi and low frequency response.

Lundahl
the overall frequency response of the 46L is extended(even more so than the 46C),


Clarification on "evens out". I am very familiar with common ribbon freq charts, I assume this statement means some peaks/valleys are smoothed out a bit ? It also sounds like the Cinemag and even more the Lundahl extend the frequency range.

I ordered several ribbon mics from mecenary a while ago. I found (as an example) the AES84 had an extended freq response compared to the coles 4038. The AES just reached higher and lower than the coles. however the coles had a more aggresive or meatier mid and low end (even though the AES seemed to extend deeper). I FELL IN LOVE with the sound of the coles immediately. I loved how it sounded HUGE and its smooth roll off of the top end left me thrilled.

In the end, I found the AES sounded too "Hi Fi", and i think much of that was the high end frequency extension. When your descriptions state the transformers "extend" the response, it makes me scratch my head and ask if thats what i want. Make any sense?


I need two more ribbons for an upcoming session and two coles will set me back $2500. For that price I can get myself two of your mics and a pearlman.

Hmmmmmm...........


maybe i'll call you tomorrow
Old 9th February 2006
  #87
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i'm still waiting to see more reviews of these though i really want a 46 Lundall model i think for guitars and drums....
Old 10th February 2006
  #88
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I talked to Jon at shinybox today. he seems like a great guy and gave me a lot of time on the phone.

We talked through the two models and what the different transformers do to the sound, so what the heck, I'll roll the dice and see what happens.

long live ribbons...
Old 10th February 2006
  #89
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Dasbin,
i've found the best way to assist in taming the darkness in certain mics is simply matching it with a good preamp.

Of course you have the stock 46, and the other Transformer options assist this evening out of the frequency response (i prefer the Cinemags personally), you've perhaps purchased the darkest of the ShinyBox microphones.

But i use my matched pair of 23C's through a Phoenix DRS-2 and i get exactly the sound i expect. Pronounced, round, brought to the front, and i don't have to do much EQing to anything tracked with the 23C's through the Phoenix.
I don't like the 23C's through my GT Brick, or the 610 in my UA 6176, or my very transparent ATI 8mx2.
But through the DRS-2, its got the Momma Bear thing going on, not too warm, not too cold.... "juuuussst right"

If i were using the 46, for a preamp i'd probably go with a Pacifica or even the OSA MP1-L3 preamp, which coincidentally uses a Lundahl transformer.
Old 13th March 2006
  #90
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ShinyBox's Avatar
 

L versions are now in stock again ( for now =) )

Thanks!

Regards

ju
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