thumbsup LOL

Jules, it´s great you´re investing time & money in educating SAE graduates at your place and if I would give someone a "high moral music industry award", you were the one to be nominated...seriously...but I just don´t want an assistant...I don´t want to become lazy and prefer my personal privacy in the intimate process of composing, tracking & mixing..

Julian Standen - what you have given to young pro audio interested people with your gearslutz forum is hundredfold more precious than Misner´s cash cow institute and it´s FOR FREE . Has to be said over and over again - we all are very thankfull for what you created over the years thumbsup thumbsup thumbsup


I personally think, the 7 k Euro I spent 10 years ago at the SAE college were an insane waste of money and I learnt more during the 2 months as a coffee cook/toilet cleaner (there it is again...) in a real big local studio.

All that theory and practical exercises have NOTHING to do with REAL LIFE music production...to me it is a high tech soap opera for rich kids (like I have been one).
Getting wet without jumping into the water...


Of course you do...cause they bring some basic knowledge, which is a better starting point for you...Vacancies...does that mean, they´re getting paid ?
Don´t think so.

I´m curious : do your assistants get a paid job when they´ve "graduated" at the library ?

I mean - it´s great to be a hobby engineer...but what do those people do for a living after they became 30 ? (**** - now I´m sounding like my own father...)

I know I stated TM as a money maker but the SAE people I know definitly NOT make false promises. When I entered the course years ago I asked about job perspectives and they were quite clear and honest about that.
If you put in work and study and you're a dedicated student yourself you can definitly learn the basics of audio-engineering at an SAE-college, some of the students just don't
commit theirselves in the way they should, that's a fact.
I learned a lot out there and I have been making my money audio-engineering in three different proffesional studio's since.

Still: TM is in it for the money and he's an audio engineer with a complete lack of taste and creativity.

Cheers, Julian

I certianly wouldn't say they are praying on naive youths false dreams. I dont actually study at SAE but where i do, and the places that i have spent sometime in like SAE definately don't sugar coat the current career prospects within the industry.

SAE is the McDonalds of audio education.
Can you say "Would you like fries with that?"

Hey Shaman

I know you learned your stuff at SAE and having had a look at your studio you've obviously learned well unless you suddenly claim that you where BORN with this knowledge. Everyone makes their own soup and swimms in it!

Right. The SAE soup is a very expensive soup, which looks very tasty before you try it, has a strange taste while you eat it and won´t feed most of its eaters.

"So give a man a fish and he´ll eat for a day...teach him how to fish and he´ll eat forever..." may have been their original philosophy...

But if there are only 1000 fishes and 1.000.000 fishermen not even this will help and he´ll stay hungry

There´s a nice, long forgotten virtue in our and other business areas.
It´s called RESPONSIBILITY FOR OTHERS instead of selling coloured singing birds to the blind, deaf & naive ones.

Believe it or not: Knowing what I know today mostly came from internships in other studios (for free - except paid with ehm toilet cleaning and listening whole days to wannabe producer´s life wisdom...), listening to engineer friends (for free), forums like this (for free) and trying days & nights by myself (for free too). heh

What I learnt at SAE mainly was to talk about engineering like I would have been born as Bruce Swedien

The fact that I don´t have to live from what I earn with my studio makes it redundant to me personally if I spent 7 k for NOTHING at SAE 10 years ago.

It´s NOT redundant for those who have to work hard for their course money / borrow it from their not rich parents / take a credit from a bank in the hope to get a job one day & pay the money back.
And those get A BIG WARNING SIGN !! from me. tutt

I have lost track of all the assistants I helped train as an in-house engineer (6 years) and as a freelancer...

In the 6 years I have been open for business I have had 2 assistants that I took on full time. The first is a working freelancer charging between $20 & $40 per hour for engineering or PT operating skills. He frequently works back at The Library, either hired by me, requested by clients or brings in his own work(4 days next week) & My current in-house guys has been with me for 3 years now and has a single at nuber 23 in the UK singles charts this week just passed!!! (The Departure) which he engineered AND produced here at The Library.

Congrats to your assistants´success Jules. thumbsup

But contrary to the SAE you only charged your assistants in "toilet cleaning-/ coffee making/ getting cigarettes - pound sterling" not in money, Jules did you ? heh
Still a more fair exchange rate for most kids than spending 7k, which they don´t have in fact

I think your assistants mainly became what they are now by learning under your tutorial wings not by what they learned in theory at SAE


....it´s a sad joke, while I´m writing this and checking my e-mail another munich SAE graduate asks for an assistant job...here comes the flood...

No pun intended of course...

Shaman,

everyone is entitled to an opinion, so here are my 5 cents:

I took the SAE course in the 90's too, and back then they charged about 4,5k and not 7k. Can't say I liked everything, there were good and crappy students, others wanted to be spoonfed. Most graduates actually made their way into the business, and that's what matters. Me and others are making a decent living now. Bottom line, If SAE didn't deliver they wouldn't be where they are.

Some questions you might want to ask yourself:

Does the accusation to cash in on dreams not apply to the whole entertainment industry, and that includes your studio?

Why do some people in the industry believe they have the exclusive right to be in there? And what entitles them to judge on what should exist and what shouldn't?

Could it simply be that they are fishing in the wrong pond? The business is bigger than ever before - just not like it used to be.

Shouldn't one be glad about people with enough cash and testosteron to step in to maintain value and quality, let their names be Peter Gabriel, Tom Misner or Dieter Maier? If their sole aim was profit or luxury, they'd buy more real estate or mega yachts instead. I certainly prefer things being run by some passionists rather than some anonimous investment funds.

Success!

Well I studied at the SAE in the mid eighties when there was only 4-5 schools and we were never told there would be a job for us. In fact we were told that only a few of us would ever make it and that if we applied ourselves and worked hard we would leave with an understanding of the basics that would mean at least if we got a job as an intern/assistant we would know what the hell everyone was talking about.

I remember absolutely no sugar coating, in fact it was the opposite.

I too am an ex SAE student.

I agree w/ Julian and Brenton.
We weren't told there would be a great job for us in some big studio for all of us.
Nope they were quite frank indeed, only few would be so fortunate.

The bad rep SAE has w/ some people has more to do with the naive arrogance of some of their grads than it has to do w/ the quality of the course.
Sure, the SAE programme can be improved, sure it's a lot of money.
And SURELY, it doesn't offer everything you need to know. Does any course?

Look at the SAE diploma as a drivers license.

You learn how to operate a vehicle, get through traffic.
Then when you get your license, you start learning how to be a good driver.

You learn how to operate a studio, get through sessions.
Then when you have your diploma, you start learning how to be a good engineer.

Fresh SAE grads applying at a major studio are usually just as silly as people who just got their license applying at a formula1 team .
Do you blame the driving school for that too ? ? ?
And can you really blame the grads for trying ? ? ?

In all fairness, I learned a lot at SAE, but I was one of a few who really pushed hard.
Of course there are rich kids who slacked their way through.
This happens in any industry though and they usually don't get far.
Still blaming their educators for that ?

Personal tastes aside, I hope SAE-NEVE will yield some coolness.
I like the direction NEVE is going w/ their encore plus automation.

sounded like music to my ears.

[/2¢]

I'm glad they didn't buy Digidesign then! heh

Very good analogy and you could repalce SAE with any "recording school" and the analogy would still work.

SAE?! and NEVE?!

Well, I lived in the the same street as the SAE in Brussels for 2 years (Gachard), and believe me, I still wonder what the hell it is they are learning there. Talked a bit with some students when passing by, met some during gigs or just by coincidence, and their knowledge seems really minimalist. "Yeah, we learn about compression and limiting and how to use this and that". Sure. Great. You do that.

I also get those 21 years old ex-SAE-students applications 4-5 times a year, asking me if there is an assistant place, or if I want to hire them for the summer...
(Not that they can't read, but I work in Studio Design, kinda like an architect. S/E in studios few times a year, but that's it.)

Anyway, I interviewed a couple of them at a time, just to see what SAE was up to, and what was the quality of their teaching (in Brussels that is, may vary with location I guess). I talked to the guys, very self sufficients by the way, and guess what, they were lost after 2 minutes. I only asked few tech questions and their points of view on what working in this field implied to them! My questions were of course a bit tricky, but that's a job/stage interview. SAE may have been a good school 10 years ago, but now it's dfegad and a Rip-off. I feel there are lots of daddy's boy there as well. The lazy kind...

I feel sorry for Neve. I have great respect for this brand. I don't like this deal. And I think they don't like it either.

Cheers

perhaps the school fee will include a free AMS BCM10 reissue? heh

thats true. i asked for a job at SAE in berlin. they offered me the half than other education institutes pay. don´t know exactly how much they charge for their education, i only heard it´s quite pricey.

on other hand they can spend the money left over for excellent studio equipment or - thats really spooky - for whole gear manufacturers.

ah... MIT and Berklee are very different places, totally independent. they just happen to be within a mile or two of one another. sounds like you were talking about Berklee and not MIT.

It's hard to make money selling big consoles these days - hence the sale of both SSL and Neve. IMO both have been slow to react to market trends and have got themselved stuffed in the process. I'm sure Tom Misner would have preferred to have bought SSL but got iced in favour of current bidder - a hugely predicatable result was his purchase of Neve. Also predicatable. Within a year Neve and SSL will merge, great news for audiophiles everywhere.

"Those who can't do, teach."

And those that can't teach 'Teach Teachers.'

its an interesting quote that one, can be true, can be bull****...there are some scarily talented people in education for all manner of reasons....


there are some for whom its just all bull**** and bluster.


hmmm...

like audio engineering methinks!

Hi

That might be predictable if Harman International Industries Ltd owned them both but not so predictable as two independent identities.

I don't understand the last bit....

Hopefully they will be strong enough to be a standalone company. The good news? Well, when SSL lauched the 9K, industry opinion opined 'Fantastic - its almost got the Neve 'sound' at last'. For Music suggest the combo of SSL automation and control surface and the Neve sound could be a winner - for the small diehard analogue market. Film - DFC has a lead but SSL has some great features. Post & Broadcast? Forget it. I don't think either companies has the resources to make it on their own.

Hi

I bow to your experience in the matter but raise my eyebrows at the suggestion that the servo driven, capacitor less, SSL 9000 has the Neve sound.

It beggers the question.... which Neve sound?

Geoff
I walk in your shadow. I'm not sure how capacitors - oxygen free cables - all gold connectors et al affect the sound. I'm sure you do. The replication of the Neve 'sound' was a big issue for SSL with the 9K - and I believe they thought they had attained that goal. The main point though, is that there is no longer a viable market in which for two struggling large-scale (both excellent) console manufacturers can make money. Either, one will go or they will merge their talents - which could be good news.

Hi

Well, what I know about SSL could be written on a postage stamp in foot high capital letters but, with this caveat, I would be staggered to hear that SSL held the Neve V series or any other later Neve as their sound icon to head for. In my life, this is the first reference I read/heard of SSL wanting a Neve sound.... let alone obtaining it.

I think the SSL 9000's biggest problem was the number of them sold... you can barely cross the road without bumping into a studio that has one. Where one goes from there is a mute point.

Anyone else with thoughts on the SSL sounds like a Neve paradox?

Hi

Thanks... I thought I was going insane there! Senility is bad enough!

Thanks to these forums that's the first time I've ever seen any mention of a similarity in over 30 years!

OK OK. Neve Sound is great. SSL Automation is great. If you are in a market where your competitor's key advantage is a preferred sound - you seek to emulate or better it. My point is that SSL recognised this and believed that - if they could come up with the 'warmth' (difficult to decribe sound in words) of the Neve with all the already acknowledged automation-benefits of SSL they would have a winner. The 9K is probably the most installed large format console in the world so they were successful in meeting that objective. Next you'll be telling me you can listen to an album and tell what console it was recorded on :-)

Hi

Just out of curiosity, were you privy to the SSL design team's goals? I find it hard to believe that the techniques used in the design of the 9000 were aimed at producing "warmth" rather than "clarity".

Hazel Simpson used to work in the sales department at Neve and then moved over to sales at SSL. I wonder if that had anything to do with the "Neve warmth" spin?