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AI MASTER - Fully Automatic Mastering Plugin
Old 11th September 2020
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Rotem View Post
Sorry RJHollins, I understood from your previous posts that you don't really care for this plugin and have little use for it.
Didn't want to trouble you any further.
hmm ... not intended to give that impression.

I had hope to relay the idea that having the plugin provide details of the processing would make this an invaluable tool [even an assistant] to anyone even considering.

Also, having the ability to select, customize the final process would also be useful.

To be honest, I welcome the technology. I began Audio Engineering some 40 years ago .... Tracking, Mixing, even Producing. Over the past years I've transitioned to Mastering.

Personally, I don't feel threatened by the technology .... I welcome it.

I'm not here to critique or bash your AI.Master plugin. In fact, I would support and purchase your plugin IF it presented resultant details.

A 2nd feature to allow User customization would maybe be useful to others. Though that may be nice, I would not bypass the sonic tools that I have ... down to my Dithering.

Maybe my suggestions are things you've already planned. Maybe not ... or not the time to disclose. I welcome a PM if non-disclosure is of concern.

I'd be there to support.

Thank-you for your consideration and your Work.

RJHollins [Up All Nite Studio]
Old 11th September 2020
  #182
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Guy Rotem's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
hmm ... not intended to give that impression.

I had hope to relay the idea that having the plugin provide details of the processing would make this an invaluable tool [even an assistant] to anyone even considering.

Also, having the ability to select, customize the final process would also be useful.

To be honest, I welcome the technology. I began Audio Engineering some 40 years ago .... Tracking, Mixing, even Producing. Over the past years I've transitioned to Mastering.

Personally, I don't feel threatened by the technology .... I welcome it.

I'm not here to critique or bash your AI.Master plugin. In fact, I would support and purchase your plugin IF it presented resultant details.

A 2nd feature to allow User customization would maybe be useful to others. Though that may be nice, I would not bypass the sonic tools that I have ... down to my Dithering.

Maybe my suggestions are things you've already planned. Maybe not ... or not the time to disclose. I welcome a PM if non-disclosure is of concern.

I'd be there to support.

Thank-you for your consideration and your Work.

RJHollins [Up All Nite Studio]
Thank you for clarifying and apologies if I misunderstood you.
I welcome all feedback, be it critique, suggestions or feature requests.

I do understand your reservations about AI MASTER in its current form regarding its "unwillingness" to disclose any of its inner workings.

Ironically, this concept of minimal user interaction is very much a conscious design element and part of the premise of AI MASTER as a quick and (possibly unprecedentedly) accessible way for musicians and producers to master their music.

The processor you are describing is likely aimed at a different audience.
It would certainly be an interesting processor, and one that I may indeed strive to develop at some stage, but is unlikely to become a replacement for AI MASTER.

Thanks again for your feedback and support!
Old 11th September 2020
  #183
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razorboy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Rotem View Post
There was a young lady from Exeter
And all the young men threw their sex at her.
Just to be rude
She lay in the nude
While her parrot, a pervert, took pecks at her.

Peter Sellers as Guy Grand, The Magic Christian
Old 11th September 2020
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Rotem View Post
Ironically, this concept of minimal user interaction is very much a conscious design element and part of the premise of AI MASTER as a quick and (possibly unprecedentedly) accessible way for musicians and producers to master their music.
AI STEM Master up next then (I hope!)?

The 'closed circuit' nature of AI Master does have the benefit of not being influenced by the user, which makes it a fairly reliable 'second opinion'. But does that also means that it can't 'learn'?

The learning part could be the ability to feed it the reference tracks one is using during mixing. To at least provide guidance, IMO.
Old 11th September 2020
  #185
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Guy Rotem's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JfromRVA View Post
AI STEM Master up next then (I hope!)?

The 'closed circuit' nature of AI Master does have the benefit of not being influenced by the user, which makes it a fairly reliable 'second opinion'. But does that also means that it can't 'learn'?

The learning part could be the ability to feed it the reference tracks one is using during mixing. To at least provide guidance, IMO.
This is correct, the learning process has been a part of the development and is "baked into" AI MASTER.

There is currently no way for the user to "teach" AI MASTER as this is an extremely involved and highly technical process.
Perhaps in a future update this will become an option if I'm able to streamline this process and make it more straight forward.

AI MASTER's decisions are however based on a vast knowledge base that encompasses many different genres and eras.

Regarding a "stem version", this also something I'm looking into.
Old 11th September 2020
  #186
Gear Maniac
 

How about classical music? Or Jazz? Could I use AI Master there as well?
Old 11th September 2020
  #187
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Guy Rotem's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RFrommann View Post
How about classical music? Or Jazz? Could I use AI Master there as well?
AI MASTER is happy to master Jazz.

Regarding classical music, I did get an interesting mail from a user who was happy with AI MASTER's result on his piece for a string quartet, but in all honesty, this would probably not be my first choice.
Old 12th September 2020
  #188
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I tested on a Jazz track .... as well as a Classical Piano/Violin performance.

Critique: The 'stereo-izing' is too much ... as it is for many of the test I've done.

Take a fine Mastered commercial track [ex: Sting - Seven Days].

Stereo-izing should be a user option [IMO] or at least a level/amount control.
Old 12th September 2020
  #189
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Guy Rotem's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJHollins View Post
I tested on a Jazz track .... as well as a Classical Piano/Violin performance.

Critique: The 'stereo-izing' is too much ... as it is for many of the test I've done.

Take a fine Mastered commercial track [ex: Sting - Seven Days].

Stereo-izing should be a user option [IMO] or at least a level/amount control.
Thanks RJHollins, added this to my list of feature requests.
Old 12th September 2020
  #190
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gyraf's Avatar
 

These days, every time I hear "AI" and real information is hidden, I strongly suspect a mechanical turk.

Perhaps it's just me being grumpy. I had an intern two years ago who was writing his doctorate in CS on the topic of AI in sound, he wasn't optimistic at all..

/Jakob E.
Old 12th September 2020
  #191
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Durk Diggler's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gyraf View Post
Perhaps it's just me being grumpy. I had an intern two years ago who was writing his doctorate in CS on the topic of AI in sound, he wasn't optimistic at all..
I wonder what his opinion is about Gullfoss, the golden waterfall of AI audio.
Old 12th September 2020
  #192
I like what the AI ****head does. Purchased. What I miss it seems it always master at -10 LUFS what about -12?
Old 12th September 2020
  #193
Gear Head
 

I would definitely be interested if I'd show what processing is being applied, at the very least the EQ curve.

This can help to improve the mix, before mastering again.
Old 12th September 2020
  #194
I think this a Paul Frindle Dynamic Spectrum thing. Sounds similar.
Old 12th September 2020
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Webhamster View Post
I would definitely be interested if I'd show what processing is being applied, at the very least the EQ curve.

This can help to improve the mix, before mastering again.
Try running AI Master then use an EQ match to show the difference between the before and after. That will give you a ballpark curve given that not all the changes being made to the spectrum are eq alone, but compression, limiting, etc.
Old 12th September 2020
  #196
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orange's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gyraf View Post
These days, every time I hear "AI" and real information is hidden, I strongly suspect a mechanical turk.
I tend to agree but maybe it doesn't matter ? If they used AI/Machine Learning/Astrology/Voodoo or just old fashioned maths, the bottom line is does it make it sound better - or rather do my ears like what it does ?

And even though, in the short term, AI for audio isn't quite there yet, it certainly will be, probably sooner rather than later (just my opinion obvs)
Old 12th September 2020
  #197
Jtt
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How does this compare to a service like Landr?
Old 14th September 2020
  #198
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When the 'difference' EQ match looks something like this you can fairly confident that the Robot agrees with your mix and it is ready to be mastered. Typical post mastering curve.
Attached Thumbnails
AI MASTER - Fully Automatic Mastering Plugin-when-robot-agrees.png  
Old 14th September 2020
  #199
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robert82's Avatar
I don't particularly love the limiting/compression. Maybe it was the track I was feeding it, but it seemed a bit heavy handed. There was some subtle EQing going on, and some nice spatial separation, but I think I would prefer to handle those things with Ozone.

Dittos to those who have suggested the ability to tweak modules: EQ, compression, limiting, imaging. Not to mess with the AI, but just to maybe add a dry/wet mix for each of the subsections.
Old 14th September 2020
  #200
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Because curiosity always gets the best of me here are 3 eq difference curve graphs using the same track thru AI Master, LANDR, and ARIA.
Attached Thumbnails
AI MASTER - Fully Automatic Mastering Plugin-ai-master-eq-difference-curve.png   AI MASTER - Fully Automatic Mastering Plugin-landr-eq-difference-curve.png   AI MASTER - Fully Automatic Mastering Plugin-aria-eq-difference-curve.png  
Old 14th September 2020
  #201
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gyraf's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by orange View Post
I tend to agree but maybe it doesn't matter ? If they used AI/Machine Learning/Astrology/Voodoo or just old fashioned maths, the bottom line is does it make it sound better - or rather do my ears like what it does ?

And even though, in the short term, AI for audio isn't quite there yet, it certainly will be, probably sooner rather than later (just my opinion obvs)
.."mechanical turk", as in selling cheap unskilled (human) labour under a hi-tech-speech cover that blurs the edges of what you can rightly expect..

My guess is that you'd never accept "mastering" like this from a nondescript third-world person?

/Jakob E.
Old 14th September 2020
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JfromRVA View Post
Because curiosity always gets the best of me here are 3 eq difference curve graphs using the same track thru AI Master, LANDR, and ARIA.
Thanks for doing that.
Old 14th September 2020
  #203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune45 View Post
Thanks for doing that.
Have to admit AI Master helped get me in the ballpark and saved me a lot of back and forth with ARIA. Once AI Master 'agreed' with my mix, Aria won this battle round with advanced settings at -1Lo, +1Hi, -2 Volume, and came back at a transient punching, speaker bumping 8Lufs without sounding crushed or hyped.

I understand the developer does not want to give the user advanced settings with AI Master. But I would have passed on Aria's product was it not for the advanced options. A little goes a long way as I think Aria gives the user a range of -2Lo +2Hi max (which at the mastering stage you need to find the 'sweet spot'!)
Attached Thumbnails
AI MASTER - Fully Automatic Mastering Plugin-aria-advanced-1lo-1hi-2db-8lufs-winner.png  
Old 14th September 2020
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JfromRVA View Post
Have to admit AI Master helped get me in the ballpark and saved me a lot of back and forth with ARIA. Once AI Master 'agreed' with my mix, Aria won this battle round with advanced settings at -1Lo, +1Hi, -2 Volume, and came back at a transient punching, speaker bumping 8Lufs without sounding crushed or hyped.

I understand the developer does not want to give the user advanced settings with AI Master. But I would have passed on Aria's product was it not for the advanced options. A little goes a long way as I think Aria gives the user a range of -2Lo +2Hi max (which at the mastering stage you need to find the 'sweet spot'!)
I actually think you might like Steinberg's Wavelab. I think I am going to get a copy as it's half price for another week or so and it's meant to be great for mastering.
Old 14th September 2020
  #205
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orange's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by gyraf View Post
My guess is that you'd never accept "mastering" like this from a nondescript third-world person?

/Jakob E.
I don't know ? If I thought it sounded good I take it whoever/whatever mixed or mastered it...what I'm saying is that the ends justify the means. Mechanical turk, unnamed low waged labour or Pro....

Let's not be luddites we've all seen how technology has improved audio, and that's been the case ...FOREVER - since humans made drums or flutes or pianos or 24 tape or GSSL compressors. Long may it continue.

This particular software isn't for me but I applaud somebody giving it a try.
Old 15th September 2020
  #206
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert82 View Post
I don't particularly love the limiting/compression. Maybe it was the track I was feeding it, but it seemed a bit heavy handed. There was some subtle EQing going on, and some nice spatial separation, but I think I would prefer to handle those things with Ozone.

Dittos to those who have suggested the ability to tweak modules: EQ, compression, limiting, imaging. Not to mess with the AI, but just to maybe add a dry/wet mix for each of the subsections.
I agree that the compression can be too much sometimes. I tried AI master on a track I just finished mixing and while overall I felt it did a really good job, it really butchered a couple of the transitions in the song. AI master’s compression settings destroyed the impact those transitions were meant to have, and I don’t know what to do differently to make those transitions retain their punch after AI master is done with the song.
Old 15th September 2020
  #207
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Guy Rotem's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexmaw View Post
I agree that the compression can be too much sometimes. I tried AI master on a track I just finished mixing and while overall I felt it did a really good job, it really butchered a couple of the transitions in the song. AI master’s compression settings destroyed the impact those transitions were meant to have, and I don’t know what to do differently to make those transitions retain their punch after AI master is done with the song.
If you're happy with AI MASTER's spectral and stereo adjustments, but disagree with its treatment of dynamics, you can lower the level of your mix after the analysis stage.
You can do this in real time until you're happy with the dynamics.

Recipe:

Analyse your mix at -6dB peak -> Switch to 'MASTER' -> Gradually reduce the level of the signal coming into AI MASTER

Hope that helps.
Old 15th September 2020
  #208
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Loopy C's Avatar
 

My 2 cents...

*User defined 'Analysis Period' - The first thing that caught my attention is that AI Master will listen to ALL of your track. Most (all?) of the other similar mastering/eq 'learn' periods barely listen to a couple of bars (depending on BPM, even less :(). So I appreciate that it is taking into account some sort of average of overall track (at least 'in theory' is my assumption??). Just makes me feel more confident, and alleviates me from having to prioritize one small section of the music over all others. I know that is fine with most pop music where you have a 'chorus' (or whatever) as the high point in the overall arc of density/dynamics/'excitement', etc...but for more non-linear, experimental music...that kind of narrative assumption doesn't really match the reality, at least not for my needs. So this this sets AI Master apart I believe in this respect.

*Price Point - Under a $100 is a great price for a tool such as this. That is low enough that you don't have to justify it working for everything, but rather gives you an attractive option to upgrading a mix to a more 'finished' sound under various circumstances where this is useful ;-)

In the age of 'Shelter-In-Place' mixing, these two points alone stood out to me as justifying a purchase and adding to the kit

The recipe from Exonic concerning raising/lowering levels into 'AI Master' AFTER analysis is noted/appreciated. I myself, have been using files prepared using TC 'LC2n' at 'Default' (-24 LKFS) with good results thus far ;-)

As a side note, once again Blue Cat Audio's 'Patchwork' saved the day....as it is allowing me to use 'AI Master' in Logic 9 (on OSX 10.9.5) so as to provide me with the 'offline' method of analysis even though AI Master itself does NOT show up in Logic 9 (which didn't surprise me given the now VERY 'legacy' age of Logic v9 lol).

Last edited by Loopy C; 15th September 2020 at 05:00 PM..
Old 17th September 2020
  #209
Gear Head
 
Guy Rotem's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loopy C View Post
My 2 cents...

*User defined 'Analysis Period' - The first thing that caught my attention is that AI Master will listen to ALL of your track. Most (all?) of the other similar mastering/eq 'learn' periods barely listen to a couple of bars (depending on BPM, even less :(). So I appreciate that it is taking into account some sort of average of overall track (at least 'in theory' is my assumption??). Just makes me feel more confident, and alleviates me from having to prioritize one small section of the music over all others. I know that is fine with most pop music where you have a 'chorus' (or whatever) as the high point in the overall arc of density/dynamics/'excitement', etc...but for more non-linear, experimental music...that kind of narrative assumption doesn't really match the reality, at least not for my needs. So this this sets AI Master apart I believe in this respect.

*Price Point - Under a $100 is a great price for a tool such as this. That is low enough that you don't have to justify it working for everything, but rather gives you an attractive option to upgrading a mix to a more 'finished' sound under various circumstances where this is useful ;-)

In the age of 'Shelter-In-Place' mixing, these two points alone stood out to me as justifying a purchase and adding to the kit

The recipe from Exonic concerning raising/lowering levels into 'AI Master' AFTER analysis is noted/appreciated. I myself, have been using files prepared using TC 'LC2n' at 'Default' (-24 LKFS) with good results thus far ;-)

As a side note, once again Blue Cat Audio's 'Patchwork' saved the day....as it is allowing me to use 'AI Master' in Logic 9 (on OSX 10.9.5) so as to provide me with the 'offline' method of analysis even though AI Master itself does NOT show up in Logic 9 (which didn't surprise me given the now VERY 'legacy' age of Logic v9 lol).
Thanks Loopy C, both for the review and for the legacy workaround!
Old 19th September 2020
  #210
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dirtROBOT's Avatar
I gave it a run through on a techno mix in progress and tbh it's pretty darn good.

It's surprisingly loud, and definitely added clarity where I didn't even think clarity would lend an improvement. It doesn't have that 'spectral magic' sound as far as I can tell.

I think this is a really good tool for:
a) Demos
b) Second pair of ears (as others mentioned) - I would DEFINITELY bounce my mix through this to have a reference before sending it to another mixer/master engineer.
c) Pooosssibly release quality processing - not going to stick my neck out on this one though.

It's certainly an improvement over Hornet Master Tool (sorry hornet, I still love your stuff!) yeah I'm impressed, I think it's a buy for me!

Actually if I had one request is to remove limiting (as mentioned above), and also maybe a way to prevent M/S processing, I do my M/S work per channel usually (or drum bus) and I don't want it messed with. One thing I appreciate about Hornet Master Tool is you can set it to soften the EQ'ing which I think would be interesting for AI Master as well.

Last edited by dirtROBOT; 19th September 2020 at 06:04 PM..
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