Apple releases Logic Pro X 10.5 - Page 8 - Gearslutz
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Apple releases Logic Pro X 10.5
Old 17th May 2020
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miscend View Post
Are there Logic 10.5 reviews already? This thing's only been out a few days. Most Youtube stuff is just previews, showing the new features, rather than a comprehensive review of the software.

They're not that many publications that do long form written reviews these days. Most of the ones you see on blogs, are too short and read like quotes taken from press materials.
MusicTech has one 10/10
Old 17th May 2020
  #212
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinga View Post
If you load Sampler plugin on the Q Sampler track (basically replacing it)The sample ports over to Sampler. Very nice.
What??? Really? This is amazing thank you. A couple times, i've been working and wishing that I had some more modulation options in Q-Sampler... This solves that.
Old 17th May 2020
  #213
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nott's Avatar
 

Automation Bug 10.5.0 (and older versions)

To all Logic users here!


How can you deal with the automation bug?!?
Are only a few users using the automation function here?

I think, right now the automation is not working.
So, I‘m really curious about your workarounds.

And yes, Logic is cheap, Logic is unbeatable for this price and Apple did a great job.
But on the other hand it is a joke that every automation is not accurate (also for the Logic internal plugins).

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Unfortunately not, see my previous posts and my signature.

Something to add to your video and for the overall majority is the fact that automation is not only shifted (aka not compensated) for the pure ms of the plug-in but twice(!) the time of it.

For those (more music-oriented) who do not yet understand the extent of the technical matter. At 120 BPM a single instance of Logic's own Linear EQ shifts your automation (e.g. of Kontakt, Omnisphere, Alchemy or even the new Samplers) a whole 16th note.
Old 17th May 2020
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nott View Post
To all Logic users here!


How can you deal with the automation bug?!?
Are only a few users using the automation function here?

I think, right now the automation is not working.
So, I‘m really curious about your workarounds.

And yes, Logic is cheap, Logic is unbeatable for this price and Apple did a great job.
But on the other hand it is a joke that every automation is not accurate (also for the Logic internal plugins).
It's strange because I have been using Logic to mix and master for years (with tons of automation), and this is the first I have heard of it.

So I'm not really doing anything. Am running some tests tho, to see how big of an issue it is on my projects.
Old 17th May 2020
  #215
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tedannemann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by motomotomoto View Post
It's strange because I have been using Logic to mix and master for years (with tons of automation), and this is the first I have heard of it.

So I'm not really doing anything. Am running some tests tho, to see how big of an issue it is on my projects.
Then you either used mostly plug-ins with low (not noticeable) latency, compensated (subconsciously) the automation by ear or you are (sorry to say) just insensible for timing with regard to sound changes (no offense to anybody).
Old 17th May 2020
  #216
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Doc No's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Then you either used mostly plug-ins with low (not noticeable) latency, compensated (subconsciously) the automation by ear or you are (sorry to say) just insensible for timing with regard to sound changes (no offense to anybody).
Or he is just insensible for bull**** with regard to sound changes (no offense to you)
Old 17th May 2020
  #217
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tedannemann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc No View Post
Or he is just insensible for bull**** with regard to sound changes (no offense to you)
Do I get it right that you mean I'm bull****ting when I say that Logic does not fully compensate automation and side-chain signals for latency which self-explanatory results in audible changes?
Old 17th May 2020
  #218
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tedannemann's Avatar
 

Sorry to bring this up again. But for those who don't hear it, this visual demonstration is hopefully an "ear opener". Hint: it sounds like what it looks like.



Test for yourself: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1flf...QRQJ7X1tg/view
Old 17th May 2020
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Sorry to bring this up again. But for those who don't hear it, this visual demonstration is hopefully an "ear opener". Hint: it sounds like what it looks like.
Slightly unrelated, but the first comment on your video seems extremely suspicious.

I do not know if this is true or not, but I have seen other videos that are warning people not to click on it, and to not interact with it at all.

It is claimed that it's some kind of bot or spammer. Those "wanna be friends" comments from that same username are popping up everywhere. Some have even claimed that it hacks their account. I do not know for sure for what the real deal is, but I'm just passing that along.
Old 17th May 2020
  #220
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tedannemann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX-80 View Post
Slightly unrelated, but the first comment on your video seems extremely suspicious.

I do not know if this is true or not, but I have seen other videos that are warning people not to click on it, and to not interact with it at all.

It is claimed that it's some kind of bot or spammer. Those "wanna be friends" comments from that same username is popping up everywhere. Some have even claimed that it hacks their account. I do not know for sure for what the real deal is, but I'm just passing that along.
Thanks, I will sort that out.
Old 17th May 2020
  #221
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Jpga's Avatar
 

Can we pre listening to loops in logic now as in Ableton?
Old 17th May 2020
  #222
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Macaroni's Avatar
 

I have not had any automation issues in Logic either - not for years. It works flawlessly and I use lots of automation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nott View Post
To all Logic users here!


How can you deal with the automation bug?!?
Are only a few users using the automation function here?

I think, right now the automation is not working.
So, I‘m really curious about your workarounds.

And yes, Logic is cheap, Logic is unbeatable for this price and Apple did a great job.
But on the other hand it is a joke that every automation is not accurate (also for the Logic internal plugins).
Old 17th May 2020
  #223
Gear Maniac
 
tedannemann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpga View Post
Can we pre listening to loops in logic now as in Ableton?
Yes, that was already possible before 10.5. However, it runs more quickly now when previewing without playing the project. Unfortunately as soon as the project is playing, previewing still is pretty sluggish compared to other DAWs.
Old 17th May 2020
  #224
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tedannemann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macaroni View Post
I have not had any automation issues in Logic either - not for years. It works flawlessly and I use lots of automation.
Unfortunately it doesn't work flawless, as soon as latency on Audio Tracks and Software Instrument Tracks in involved.
Old 17th May 2020
  #225
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Unfortunately it doesn't work flawless, as soon as latency on Audio Tracks and Software Instrument Tracks in involved.
Don't have this problem either... but then again I'm not bogging my tracks down with tons of plugins and I rarely use VIs.
Old 17th May 2020
  #226
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tedannemann's Avatar
 

Here is an audible demonstration of the problems occur when working with automation and latency generating plug-ins. In this example one additional plug-in with latency (Adaptive Limiter) destroys the Gain automation.

The aim was to automate the word "two". In this simple demonstration just the gain knob of the Gain plug-in (as substitute for any other plug-in automation).

The word "two" should be automated (muted) no matter what happens on the track - as it's the case in Cubase, Live, Bitwig, Studio One or Pro Tools (just to make it clear that this has been the standard for years now).

However, this gain automation curve could be anything, an instrument like Kontakt or Omnisphere, an effect, de-esser, eq, a swell, fade-in/out of any parameter, a reverb automation, you name it.

To emphasize, it doesn't matter if it's a hard or soft automation. The points, it's all about the points, they are at the mercy of the missing latency compensation and shift (won't get compensated) depending on what happens plug-in-wise on the track.

Wait till you hear what happens to the automation as soon as the limiter (substitute for any other latency generating plug-in) gets involved:



Do you use plug-ins as from iZotope, Acustica Audio, Universal Audio, or especially plug-ins like Soothe, DynOne, Virtual Tape Machine, Gullfoss for example or any other heavy latency introducing plug-ins?

If you stack such plug-ins on top of each other, any automation on these audio and instrument tracks will be out of order audibly and you will have to change the latency for each (latency) plug-in change you do "by ear" - such as slapping additional plug-ins on the track at a later stage, software updates of the plug-in itself (e.g. oversampling functions), different modes/presets of the plug-ins (high/low latency modes), deactivating a plug-in later on, exchanging for another one and so on).

Therefore one should not trivialize the missing compensation for automation (as well as side chain signals) but seriously request it from Apple. This is a serious flaw.

Sorry again and thanks for understanding.
Old 17th May 2020
  #227
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Unfortunately it doesn't work flawless, as soon as latency on Audio Tracks and Software Instrument Tracks in involved.
As can be seen here, a rhytmic filter cut off automation on the instrument becomes off when the track has a high latency plugin. In this case Ozone.
Filter opens up and closes later than where the automation is, thus disrupting the rhythm.
Second track is a bounce of the first instrument track with the waveform showing the problem.
Attached Thumbnails
Apple releases Logic Pro X 10.5-screen-20shot-202020-05-13-20at-2016.47.27.jpg  

Last edited by ozinga; 17th May 2020 at 11:38 PM.. Reason: Spelling
Old 18th May 2020
  #228
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ozinga View Post
As can be seen here, a rhytmic filter cut off automation on the instrument becomes off when the track has a high latency plugin. In this case Ozone.
Filter opens up and closes later than where the automation is, thus disrupting the rhythm.
Second track is a bounce of the first instrument track with the waveform showing the problem.
Yes unfortunately this is true, as well as tedannemann's posts above. I have done my own tests in the past.

Apple has known about this issue since I believe 10.2 (?) and it has not been fixed. It must be something very deep under the hood. These new features look wonderful. Unfortunately personally I'm tired of working around this issue and was really hoping this next update would solve it. Thus, I have been researching cubase extensively these past few weeks.
Old 18th May 2020
  #229
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Jpga's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Yes, that was already possible before 10.5. However, it runs more quickly now when previewing without playing the project. Unfortunately as soon as the project is playing, previewing still is pretty sluggish compared to other DAWs.
Thank you.
All the best,,
Old 18th May 2020
  #230
Gear Head
 
Nokturnal's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Here is an audible demonstration of the problems occur when working with automation and latency generating plug-ins. In this example one additional plug-in with latency (Adaptive Limiter) destroys the Gain automation.

The aim was to automate the word "two". In this simple demonstration just the gain knob of the Gain plug-in (as substitute for any other plug-in automation).

The word "two" should be automated (muted) no matter what happens on the track - as it's the case in Cubase, Live, Bitwig, Studio One or Pro Tools (just to make it clear that this has been the standard for years now).

However, this gain automation curve could be anything, an instrument like Kontakt or Omnisphere, an effect, de-esser, eq, a swell, fade-in/out of any parameter, a reverb automation, you name it.

To emphasize, it doesn't matter if it's a hard or soft automation. The points, it's all about the points, they are at the mercy of the missing latency compensation and shift (won't get compensated) depending on what happens plug-in-wise on the track.

Wait till you hear what happens to the automation as soon as the limiter (substitute for any other latency generating plug-in) gets involved:



Do you use plug-ins as from iZotope, Acustica Audio, Universal Audio, or especially plug-ins like Soothe, DynOne, Virtual Tape Machine, Gullfoss for example or any other heavy latency introducing plug-ins?

If you stack such plug-ins on top of each other, any automation on these audio and instrument tracks will be out of order audibly and you will have to change the latency for each (latency) plug-in change you do "by ear" - such as slapping additional plug-ins on the track at a later stage, software updates of the plug-in itself (e.g. oversampling functions), different modes/presets of the plug-ins (high/low latency modes), deactivating a plug-in later on, exchanging for another one and so on).

Therefore one should not trivialize the missing compensation for automation (as well as side chain signals) but seriously request it from Apple. This is a serious flaw.

Sorry again and thanks for understanding.
I was able to recreate the problem here on Logic X 10.5 and Mojave.

When I turned OFF the “Sample accurate automation” in the Preferences > Audio > General, the issue went away.
Old 18th May 2020
  #231
Gear Maniac
 
tedannemann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokturnal View Post
I was able to recreate the problem here on Logic X 10.5 and Mojave.

When I turned OFF the “Sample accurate automation” in the Preferences > Audio > General, the issue went away.
Yes, which doesn‘t make sense as automation for plug-ins in Logic never was sample accurate anyway.

The best and default setting ”volume, pan, sends, plug-ins” compensates automation on summing stacks / aux buses (workaround a) but not on single tracks. If you set it to ”volume, pan, sends” automation will be off then on summing stacks / aux buses including the master but not on single tracks (workaround b).

So you have to choose between the lesser evil.
Either way, it‘s just not right including the incorrect compensation for side chain signals it gets ugly fast in average sized projects containing all type of tracks, automation and side chaining.
Old 18th May 2020
  #232
Gear Head
 
Nokturnal's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Yes, which doesn‘t make sense as automation for plug-ins in Logic never was sample accurate anyway.

The best and default setting ”volume, pan, sends, plug-ins” compensates automation on summing stacks / aux buses (workaround a) but not on single tracks. If you set it to ”volume, pan, sends” automation will be off then on summing stacks / aux buses including the master but not on single tracks (workaround b).

So you have to choose between the lesser evil.
Either way, it‘s just not right including the incorrect compensation for side chain signals it gets ugly fast in average sized projects containing all type of tracks, automation and side chaining.
I just submitted a bug report.

I encourage everyone to do their own test and submit bug reports so we can get a properly working plugin automation in Logic.
Old 18th May 2020
  #233
Gear Maniac
 
tedannemann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokturnal View Post
I just submitted a bug report.

I encourage everyone to do their own test and submit bug reports so we can get a properly working plugin automation in Logic.
Thanks! As the buffer clear out of automation on summing stacks/aux buses seems to be fixed and bounce in place for summing stacks/aux buses is working as supposed now in 10.5 - they could be also some changes in regard to the behavior of the compensation of automation, side chain signals and host synced plug-ins vs settings (single track vs bus). Maybe the simple "lesser evil" workarounds mentioned above also work differently now (unfortunately I couldn't test every constellation of it yet with 10.5). However, the fact that it doesn't work as supposed with default settings and messes things up depending on your project and the plug-ins used is still advocating reporting this issue to Apple.
Old 18th May 2020
  #234
Love to try this but it requires an upgrade to Catalina. The last time I upgraded I lost two software instruments from Finale that I occasionally use and the situation requires a paid upgrade to recover them, so i found another solution. There have been some squeals of anguish from people who have upgraded to Catalina. Normally I would get in and decide for myself but with my recent experience I'm listening to my own advice which is 'never upgrade any Apple software until you absolutely have to'.
Old 18th May 2020
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KJandKT View Post
As I use both a lot I would say...not too much except price. Logic is $200 once and done basically, Pro Tools is $200 a year...

I love Logic Pro X for the creative/songwriting tools - for $200 a no-brainer (for me) to have in the studio to write and then mix in Pro Tools. You can honestly mix and create fine in either though.

If you don't mind spending $200 a year and really like the Pro Tools workflow for mixing (which I love as well)...then I personally wouldn't switch.

Have a blessed day!
Thank you for the answer... Kind regards.
Old 18th May 2020
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Morton View Post
Love to try this but it requires an upgrade to Catalina. The last time I upgraded I lost two software instruments from Finale that I occasionally use and the situation requires a paid upgrade to recover them, so i found another solution. There have been some squeals of anguish from people who have upgraded to Catalina. Normally I would get in and decide for myself but with my recent experience I'm listening to my own advice which is 'never upgrade any Apple software until you absolutely have to'.
I've been hesitant to upgrade to Catalina also, but luckily, Catalina is not required for Logic 10.5

You need a minimum of 10.14.6, which is Mojave.
Old 18th May 2020
  #237
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nott's Avatar
 

Broken Automation

Thanks @ tedannemann !

Yes - I tried it by my own.
Nothing changed. The automation is still broken and the used automation-lanes are not in sync.
That is really annoying.

In the meanwhile I got a contact to the audio department of Apple.
I will write them a mail.
But as you mentioned before: this bug seems to be deep under the hood...

Anyway: BIG THANKS TO ALL OF YOU WHO WILL REPORT THIS

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Thanks! As the buffer clear out of automation on summing stacks/aux buses seems to be fixed and bounce in place for summing stacks/aux buses is working as supposed now in 10.5 - they could be also some changes in regard to the behavior of the compensation of automation, side chain signals and host synced plug-ins vs settings (single track vs bus). Maybe the simple "lesser evil" workarounds mentioned above also work differently now (unfortunately I couldn't test every constellation of it yet with 10.5). However, the fact that it doesn't work as supposed with default settings and messes things up depending on your project and the plug-ins used is still advocating reporting this issue to Apple.
Old 18th May 2020
  #238
TZk
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macaroni View Post
I have not had any automation issues in Logic either - not for years. It works flawlessly and I use lots of automation.
Once you reach a certain delay amount it goes wrong.
Old 18th May 2020
  #239
Gear Nut
 
Chipirones's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Morton View Post
Love to try this but it requires an upgrade to Catalina.
Nope, it requires 10.14.6(last mojave version)
Old 18th May 2020
  #240
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solidstate's Avatar
 

Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedannemann View Post
Thanks! As the buffer clear out of automation on summing stacks/aux buses seems to be fixed and bounce in place for summing stacks/aux buses is working as supposed now in 10.5 - they could be also some changes in regard to the behavior of the compensation of automation, side chain signals and host synced plug-ins vs settings (single track vs bus). Maybe the simple "lesser evil" workarounds mentioned above also work differently now (unfortunately I couldn't test every constellation of it yet with 10.5). However, the fact that it doesn't work as supposed with default settings and messes things up depending on your project and the plug-ins used is still advocating reporting this issue to Apple.
Mmmm... I’ve been using logic from the Emagic days and never had any issue with automation before. I work almost exclusively with Komplete Kontrol and Maschine, with plenty of NKS plug ins (including ozone limiter) as well as UAD. I can assure you that the automation work just as expected. Just to be sure.. Is your Mac up to snuff?
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