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Genelec announces 8351B and 8361A coaxial monitors and W371A Adaptive Woofer System
Old 27th January 2020
  #211
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avgatzeblouz View Post
So I had the chance to test the 8351B for over a week, and I'm thrilled. I had let Genelec down 15-20 years ago, when the classig Genelec speaker in studios was the 1032, and I tyhought it was more enhancing than revealing. Those new speakers are crazy good. So little disortion, so crazy detail. A little cold sounding. But my mixes get out of here more controlled, and faster.
For those interested, I ran a series of measurements this morning, to compare GLM and Sonarworks. My room is half-treated, I need some more bass traps and some diffusers, but it is not ugly as it is now. So you can look at the graphs with the speakers by themselves, with GLM, with SW, and with both !

Cheers !
Thanks for sharing this! When you say "cold", I assume it's because you made the FR flat/neutral, but you could give it a mid-range bump to be less cold?
Old 28th January 2020
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aliko View Post
Thanks for sharing this! When you say "cold", I assume it's because you made the FR flat/neutral, but you could give it a mid-range bump to be less cold?
GLM has a sound character profile where you can change the overall EQ of the speakers post room correction (ie taper highs, lows, or custom). so yes, you can warm up the speakers.
Old 28th January 2020
  #213
Gear Head
 

Coldness

What you are hearing is the effect of the speaker enclosure material - aluminum. All speakers made of aluminum have this characteristic, which is a lack of the typical micro-vibration patterns in materials such as MDF or other wooden materials.

If you were to build a violin made of aluminum it would sound totally different than a wooden one. You can tweak all day with EQ but this base characteristic will always remain.

Speakers have totally different design goals then violins. Both can be seen as intruments but speakers are mostly engineered in a way that the enclosure should have the least impact on the sound possible and the drivers can work with the least amount of interference - so without resonance. That is why - also from my experience - speakers with an aluminum enclosure sound more pure, less colored (typical wood characterstics) and more precise. For ears that are acostumed to typical coloration patterns, this appears as if something is missing and creates the subjective impression of coldness.

If an aluminum enclosure is not sufficiently damped with bitumen (glued to the enclosure walls from the inside,) it can emit a type of "ringing" coloration which is part of the overall sound you'll be hearing. This can add to the impression of coldness/piercing character and I would say this was more present in older Genelec models (the first aluminum 2-way models). I cannot judge how the new Genelec One speakers are damped internally because I have never seen the inside but some whool would definitely not be enough.

All in all Aluminum has enormous benefits over many other materials if damped sufficiently andcorrectly, such as stiffness, larger internal volume in relation to overall speaker size (thinner walls), lack of colorations, relatively little weight and immense possibilities of shaping the enclosure (cast aluminum).
Old 29th January 2020
  #214
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Avgatzeblouz's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by etchcube View Post
What you are hearing is the effect of the speaker enclosure material - aluminum. All speakers made of aluminum have this characteristic, which is a lack of the typical micro-vibration patterns in materials such as MDF or other wooden materials.

If you were to build a violin made of aluminum it would sound totally different than a wooden one. You can tweak all day with EQ but this base characteristic will always remain.

Speakers have totally different design goals then violins. Both can be seen as intruments but speakers are mostly engineered in a way that the enclosure should have the least impact on the sound possible and the drivers can work with the least amount of interference - so without resonance. That is why - also from my experience - speakers with an aluminum enclosure sound more pure, less colored (typical wood characterstics) and more precise. For ears that are acostumed to typical coloration patterns, this appears as if something is missing and creates the subjective impression of coldness.

If an aluminum enclosure is not sufficiently damped with bitumen (glued to the enclosure walls from the inside,) it can emit a type of "ringing" coloration which is part of the overall sound you'll be hearing. This can add to the impression of coldness/piercing character and I would say this was more present in older Genelec models (the first aluminum 2-way models). I cannot judge how the new Genelec One speakers are damped internally because I have never seen the inside but some whool would definitely not be enough.

All in all Aluminum has enormous benefits over many other materials if damped sufficiently andcorrectly, such as stiffness, larger internal volume in relation to overall speaker size (thinner walls), lack of colorations, relatively little weight and immense possibilities of shaping the enclosure (cast aluminum).
Makes lots of sense, thanks for that !
Old 30th January 2020
  #215
Gear Nut
 

Ordered my first ever Genelecs today. Upgrading from Event Opals, my 8351B’s should arrive in Australia end of Feb.
Old 30th January 2020
  #216
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Hi everyone,
Long time reader, first time poster.
I’ve been using Genelecs purely for home DJing and listening for over 20 years.
I started off with a pair of 1029a monitors, added the sub a year later and that did me for 18 years of trouble free listening.
In 2018 I upgraded to the 8351a monitors which were mind blowing. Then I added the 7370 sub which took things to another level. I have honestly never heard anything remotely close as good as this set up.

I was claiming to everyone at this point that this was the system for me for the next 20 years but now having seen the 8361a and salivated over combining them with the W371a woofers... I’m planning to upgrade.

I do have a couple of questions though... the 7370 sub is placed against a common wall (we live in a semi detached house) we share with our neighbour. He’s expressed to me he hears too much bass coming through the wall on occasions when I’m prone to turning the system up. Would I be right in thinking with the W371a installed I could direct the bass frequencies away from the common shared wall, even if the w371a were positions close to it but facing away?

And just lastly, what material are the W371a made from?

Cheers,

Adam
Old 1st February 2020
  #217
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bondi5000 View Post
I do have a couple of questions though... the 7370 sub is placed against a common wall (we live in a semi detached house) we share with our neighbour. He’s expressed to me he hears too much bass coming through the wall on occasions when I’m prone to turning the system up. Would I be right in thinking with the W371a installed I could direct the bass frequencies away from the common shared wall, even if the w371a were positions close to it but facing away?
Directivity will help to focus the energy towards the front of the cabinet / the listener but the cruel reality is that low frequencies have such long wavelength that they will eventually find their way to your neighbour as well. Only effective solutions are to turn down the volume or acoustically and mechanically isolate those two spaces from each other. That requires some heavy construction and needs professional planning and execution.

Quote:
And just lastly, what material are the W371a made from?
Cabinet is made out of MDF (medium-density fibreboard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium-density_fibreboard). Panel thicknesses are substantial and there is a lot of bracing inside to make it even more solid. The full product weighs 69 kg / 152 lbs. Two persons are required to lift or move the product.

Last edited by Ilkka; 1st February 2020 at 04:27 PM..
Old 11th February 2020
  #218
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Genelec 8351B Latency Question

I was wondering if someone could chime in about the latency induced by DSP for the 8351B.

I read somewhere that the 8351a induced an average of about 5ms ( which is quite remarkable, if true).

I'm still waiting for these to be available here in Germany.
Old 12th February 2020
  #219
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Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhang View Post
I was wondering if someone could chime in about the latency induced by DSP for the 8351B.

I read somewhere that the 8351a induced an average of about 5ms ( which is quite remarkable, if true).

I'm still waiting for these to be available here in Germany.
8351A has about 5..6 ms thru-put latency, and 8351B has about 3..4 ms thru-put latency, depending on the used input (analogue or AES/EBU) and the sampling frequency.

This is a very short time. 1 meter or 3 feet distance equals to 3 ms delay.

For the sake of comparison, a delay of tens of ms is very typical for the currently available monitors on the market.

8351B has been in production for many months already. You need to contact the dealer to place your order.

Last edited by Ilkka; 12th February 2020 at 07:16 PM..
Old 12th February 2020
  #220
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Bhang's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka View Post
8351B has about 3..4 ms thru-put latency
That is quite amazing. 3.4 ms is nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka View Post
8351B has been in production for many months already. You need to contact the dealer to place your order.
I just booked an appointment at a listening room. I can't wait to check them out.

Thanks for the information.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #221
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Bhang's Avatar
 

I just went to the Genelec showroom here in Berlin and tested out the whole range of The Ones!
I'm speechless!
These are astounding monitors and the 8351b stole the show. I even preferred them to the 61's. They are just a touch more natural sounding and crisper in the highs. The Gen. Tech told me this was mostly due to the fact that the low end extension on the 61's reaches so low and with such little effort that the tonal balance shifts slightly giving the illusion that the top is a little less articulate. These two monitors have the exact same mids and highs so this makes sense.

The ATC 20 A SL MKII + Sub has a huge job in trying to convince me not to get the Gennies!.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #222
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Bhang's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
I also have two subs (7360) with 8351As. They make the most transparent and reliable monitoring I have ever experienced (I also have D&Ds). GLM helps you integrate subs like nothing else. You stop thinking about speakers + subs, but you get one cohesive system where subs are part of the reproduction picture and you don't hear them separated. I suppose there is no better free standing system at the market than Genelec The Ones + their subs...
Thank you Jantex for your very articulate experience with the Genelec "ONES". I just listened to the 8351b and so far nothing comes anywhere close to these at this price point. My question for you is whether or not you decided to keep your 8351a + dual Subs or did you take the plunge on the new updates? I saw a pair of 8351a's with dual 7360 subs on Funky Junk and immediately thought they might be yours. If you are selling the A's for the B's can you tell me your opinions of the new updated version?

In 2 weeks I will have a pair to test out in my studio! I can't wait!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #223
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Jantex's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhang View Post
Thank you Jantex for your very articulate experience with the Genelec "ONES". I just listened to the 8351b and so far nothing comes anywhere close to these at this price point. My question for you is whether or not you decided to keep your 8351a + dual Subs or did you take the plunge on the new updates? I saw a pair of 8351a's with dual 7360 subs on Funky Junk and immediately thought they might be yours. If you are selling the A's for the B's can you tell me your opinions of the new updated version?

In 2 weeks I will have a pair to test out in my studio! I can't wait!
Hi Bhang, you are correct, I updated 8351As for the Bs and the improvement is much more significant that I expected it to be. They are the best monitoring solution I have ever heard, used or had. And that includes ATC SCM20ASL + 1/12sub, SCM25A, Amphions, D&D 8Cs...and worked on basically every monitor speaker there is. I never thought I would say for any speaker that is perfect to me, but 8351B + pair of 7360 really are. I am now also waiting to get 8361 for another room and I expect them to be spectacular as well.

No, that is not my pair on Funky Junk. I only sold 8351As but kept the subs. I am also planning to audition 8351+ W371, but expect it to be an expensive outcome

I have written detailed review in this thread few pages back. There is really nothing to add, to be honest. If you had a chance to hear them in a proper environment, then I am 100% positive you will share your feelings with me.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #224
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Bhang's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
Hi Bhang, you are correct, I updated 8351As for the Bs and the improvement is much more significant that I expected it to be. They are the best monitoring solution I have ever heard, used or had. And that includes ATC SCM20ASL + 1/12sub, SCM25A, Amphions, D&D 8Cs...and worked on basically every monitor speaker there is. I never thought I would say for any speaker that is perfect to me, but 8351B + pair of 7360 really are. I am now also waiting to get 8361 for another room and I expect them to be spectacular as well...
I have written detailed review in this thread few pages back. There is really nothing to add, to be honest. If you had a chance to hear them in a proper environment, then I am 100% positive you will share your feelings with me.
Thanks Jantex!
I have read every post on every thread at Gearslutz involving the 8351b. Your posts are what made me curious enough to test these out to begin with.
So ... THANK YOU for that!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #225
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Jantex's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhang View Post
Thanks Jantex!
I have read every post on every thread at Gearslutz involving the 8351b. Your posts are what made me curious enough to test these out to begin with.
So ... THANK YOU for that!
After I wrote you my reply, I just seen your earlier post, that you have just heard them in Berlin. Now I suppose you can really understand what I am saying. Yes, they are unbelievable and ATC SCM20A with sub will not be able to compete at all. I can say from my own experience with them. Genelec project more depth, sharper and more accurate stereo imaging and sound so detailed and neutral at the same time. Totally effortless. And low end needs to be heard to be believed
Old 4 weeks ago
  #226
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ARIEL's Avatar
Wow, at a 150 lbs for the sub, just trying fathom the shipping and delivery of two of those subs, then trying set them up. Considering there are no bars to grab a hold of them.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #227
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
They are the best monitoring solution I have ever heard, used or had. And that includes ATC SCM20ASL + 1/12sub, SCM25A, Amphions, D&D 8Cs...and worked on basically every monitor speaker there is. I never thought I would say for any speaker that is perfect to me, but 8351B + pair of 7360 really are. I am now also waiting to get 8361 for another room and I expect them to be spectacular as well.

)
Better than the Kii 3 as well? I have both the Kiis and the 8351B and must say both have unique strengths. Compared to the Kiis the Gens have little low entension (without sub). Kiis sound dryer but more natural. Gens have better imaging and sound cooler.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etchcube View Post
Better than the Kii 3 as well? I have both the Kiis and the 8351B and must say both have unique strengths. Compared to the Kiis the Gens have little low entension (without sub). Kiis sound dryer but more natural. Gens have better imaging and sound cooler.
Yes, in my opinion yes. They coupled with subs still cost less, extend lower, are much more SPL capable, with more authority and much less distortion and can effectively be placed better to measure far better. Without the subs, Kiis definitely extend lower and can help with cardioid radiation in lesser rooms, but we actually found Genelecs to sound more natural and more relaxed. Regarding the imaging there was no comparison, Genelecs image better and have better midrange definition. Kiis are superb all in one system, but considering you can build a super performing Genelec system for less with better performance, I consider them slightly too expensive for what they offer.

Mind you, with two subs I can play 30Hz at 107dB SPL at 1m, which is superb dynamic range for the price. Try to achieve this with Kiis and you will notice they will bottom out at around 90Hz. This brings a significant difference in the cleanliness of the low end reproduction in Genelecs favour.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #229
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
Yes, in my opinion yes. They coupled with subs still cost less, extend lower, are much more SPL capable, with more authority and much less distortion and can effectively be placed better to measure far better. Without the subs, Kiis definitely extend lower and can help with cardioid radiation in lesser rooms, but we actually found Genelecs to sound more natural and more relaxed. Regarding the imaging there was no comparison, Genelecs image better and have better midrange definition. Kiis are superb all in one system, but considering you can build a super performing Genelec system for less with better performance, I consider them slightly too expensive for what they offer.

Mind you, with two subs I can play 30Hz at 107dB SPL at 1m, which is superb dynamic range for the price. Try to achieve this with Kiis and you will notice they will bottom out at around 90Hz. This brings a significant difference in the cleanliness of the low end reproduction in Genelecs favour.
Interesting. I have never heard the Gens with subs. Have you ever heard the Kiis with BXT. How would the two systems fare against each other? Kii with BXT vs Gens with subs. The new gen bass towers are out of the question. Simply too ugly regardless of how they sound...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etchcube View Post
Interesting. I have never heard the Gens with subs. Have you ever heard the Kiis with BXT. How would the two systems fare against each other? Kii with BXT vs Gens with subs. The new gen bass towers are out of the question. Simply too ugly regardless of how they sound...
I haven’t hear them paired with BXT, but of course this is expected to drastically change the situation. But this again is much more expensive solution than W-371, which again are better performers. So performance per EUR is not Kiis strong point, but they are still great performers nevertheless.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #231
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
I haven’t hear them paired with BXT, but of course this is expected to drastically change the situation. But this again is much more expensive solution than W-371, which again are better performers. So performance per EUR is not Kiis strong point, but they are still great performers nevertheless.
A set of BXT is cheaper than a set of W-371.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etchcube View Post
A set of BXT is cheaper than a set of W-371.
https://www.wifimedia.eu/en/kii-audi...540&quantity=1
30,000 euro

The European list prices are: 8351B - 3450€ and W371 - 7600€.
Per monitor of course. Even if it excl vat, it's less.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etchcube View Post
A set of BXT is cheaper than a set of W-371.
8351B + W371 is significantly less expensive option than Kii + BXT but again more powerfull. But I haven’t heard any of these full systems yet in person, so here I am only speculating by looking at the specs.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #234
Here for the gear
 

For multi-channel home theater:
If I wanted to use 8351B for 5.1 surround duty with a home theater pre/pro, I assume all the multi-channel analog outputs including subwoofer would be plugged directly into a sub like the 7360, and from there connect to 3x8351B (L/C/R) + 2x8331A (surrounds) + additional subwoofers?
Would the GLM still be used for room correction or should I defer to Dirac if the pre/pro has it, or both?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #235
Quote:
Originally Posted by etchcube View Post
If you were to build a violin made of aluminum it would sound totally different than a wooden one. You can tweak all day with EQ but this base characteristic will always remain.

Speakers have totally different design goals then violins.

phenomenal !

Old 1 week ago
  #236
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Bhang's Avatar
 

Tide keeps pulling my way

I not only got to test the 8351B's in Genelec's wonderful listening room but they gave me a loaner pair for a week and even helped me rearrange my room to test out different locations.

Thank You Genelec !!! Not only are they the only company with a dedicated showroom here in Berlin but they also gave me a pair to test. This was not an option for the Focal Trio11Be or ATC SCM 20 A SL + Sub.

I did, however, get to test both the Focals & ATC's at a local retailer.

They both sounded wonderful but there were things I started to notice as I listened more closely that stayed consistent between mixes.

( The room was not treated but also not terrible ... lower levels help minimize but not eliminate some issues.)

The ATC's have that wonderful mid-range but for me the highs were too soft for my taste. Hats and electronic percussion tended to feel farther back in the mix that I'm used to hearing on other systems. Songs that I knew were borderline too bright sounded perfectly fine.

The Focal's seemed to be the opposite. Buckets of low end and very crisp and tidy highs. The mids, however, felt slightly tucked in to my ears. It could be the room or that these are MASSIVE monitors and therefore were set up as mid-fields with the ATC's as near-fields. Hardly ideal, but that is what I had to work with. Sitting so far back also likely altered the balance as there is so much low end even at low levels it resonates.

After about an hour of listening I went back to my studio and listened to the 8351B's comparing reference tracks.

I don't really care why, but the 8351B's don't sound a little better. They sound a lot better. I have to agree with Jantex that these are the best sounding monitors I have ever heard.

I will ad again, that the Focal & ATC sounded good and in an untreated room that is about all I would expect.

I ordered my 8351B's today and should have them soon. Demo pair go back tomorrow and they will be temporarily missed.
Old 1 week ago
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
8351B + W371 is significantly less expensive option than Kii + BXT but again more powerfull. But I haven’t heard any of these full systems yet in person, so here I am only speculating by looking at the specs.
Curious. Between Dutch & Dutch 8C's & Genelec 8351B's with NO sub, which way would you go?
Old 1 week ago
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aremos View Post
Curious. Between Dutch & Dutch 8C's & Genelec 8351B's with NO sub, which way would you go?
I would choose Genelec 8351Bs. While the low end wouls be better on 8Cs, everything else is significantly better on Genelecs (mids, highs, imaging, depth).
Old 1 week ago
  #239
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka View Post
8351A has about 5..6 ms thru-put latency, and 8351B has about 3..4 ms thru-put latency, depending on the used input (analogue or AES/EBU) and the sampling frequency.

This is a very short time. 1 meter or 3 feet distance equals to 3 ms delay.
I am very interested in the latency as I am considering 8351B/8341a for Piano VST playback. The usage is exactly how Genelec 8331s are used with the Yamaha AvantGrand N1X digital piano in the following pictures taken from http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthrea...ml#Post2888720







Is the latency shorter if AES/EBU is used (vs. analogue)? What are the latency for the two?

If the analogue input is used, is the signal first converted to digital internally and then DSP applied and then converted back to analogue again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka View Post
For the sake of comparison, a delay of tens of ms is very typical for the currently available monitors on the market.
I assume you refer to monitors with DSP in them, right? Without DSP, the monitors (e.g. Genelec 8050b) should have 'near zero' latency, correct?

Thanks,
Osho
Old 1 week ago
  #240
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oshogg View Post
I am very interested in the latency as I am considering 8351B/8341a for Piano VST playback. The usage is exactly how Genelec 8331s are used with the Yamaha AvantGrand N1X digital piano in the following pictures taken from

Is the latency shorter if AES/EBU is used (vs. analogue)? What are the latency for the two?
8331A/8341A/8351B all have same latency.

Analogue input: 3 ms
Digital input 48 kHz: 4 ms
Digital input 96 kHz: 3.5 ms
Digital input 192 kHz: 3 ms

Quote:
If the analogue input is used, is the signal first converted to digital internally and then DSP applied and then converted back to analogue again?
Yes.


Quote:
I assume you refer to monitors with DSP in them, right? Without DSP, the monitors (e.g. Genelec 8050b) should have 'near zero' latency, correct?
Correct.
Topic:
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