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Genelec announces 8351B and 8361A coaxial monitors and W371A Adaptive Woofer System
Old 16th September 2019
  #91
Gear Nut
 

Ikka,

A few more questions on the W371 please:

(1)
Does Genelec have placement guidelines? Specifically, can it be placed a distance away from the walls? Like in the middle of the room?

(2)
Can it be placed alongside the monitor? Mine are truss mounted, 80cm off the ground, which doesn’t leave clearance for the W371. I could place the bass tower in parallel though.

(3)
Is it possible to assign a W371 to the L/R monitors of a multi-channel setup with the GLM taking their existence into account?

(4)
Is there a mode which obviates the need for 73x0 sub all together?

(If you already answered any of the above in this thread, just skip it. I'm going to read it from the top)
Old 16th September 2019
  #92
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoveringBit View Post
(If you already answered any of the above in this thread, just skip it. I'm going to read it from the top)
I replied to you here: Genelec announces 8351B and 8361A coaxial monitors and W371A Adaptive Woofer System
Old 16th September 2019
  #93
Quote:
Hi Ilkka,

I'm currently seeking advice regarding my setup. As of now, I'm running a pair of Genelec 8340A monitors with a single 7360A sub.

I like low end for my synthesizers and tracking, and occasionally like the low-end bump for fun. I generally mix a little bit of everything.

My room is approximately 20 ft by 15 ft and I occasionally like having high SPL. My current 8340A + 7360A sub allows for this.

I was curious as to what you'd pick in my scenario?
  1. Keep my 7360A sub and upgrade to the 8341A monitors?
  2. Sell it all and go for a pair of 8351B monitors? Would I miss the low end in this scenario?

Thanks in advance for your opinion! I'm interested in hearing your recommendation versus my PMs exchanged with Jantex.

-Phil
Old 16th September 2019
  #94
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palaver View Post
Hi Ilkka,

I'm currently seeking advice regarding my setup. As of now, I'm running a pair of Genelec 8340A monitors with a single 7360A sub.

I like low end for my synthesizers and tracking, and occasionally like the low-end bump for fun. I generally mix a little bit of everything.

My room is approximately 20 ft by 15 ft and I occasionally like having high SPL. My current 8340A + 7360A sub allows for this.

I was curious as to what you'd pick in my scenario?
  1. Keep my 7360A sub and upgrade to the 8341A monitors?
  2. Sell it all and go for a pair of 8351B monitors? Would I miss the low end in this scenario?

Thanks in advance for your opinion! I'm interested in hearing your recommendation versus my PMs exchanged with Jantex.

-Phil
Phil,

I'm sure Ikka can offer his well argued respond, but if I'm allowed:

There're two camps out there, with diametrically oppose opinion as to which is superior: two bigger mains alone or step-down mains + a sub.

I auditioned both and I would't give up on a sub. Yes, the 8351b has more of everything compared to the 8341, but since you're a used to working with a sub, you'd sorely miss it if was gone. The 8341 is a fantastic monitor, and if you don't need the additional SPL or the wider directivity (i.e., you don't sit far from the mains), then it's an excellent choice.

In truth, all four family members are at the top of their game (yes, I'm speculation on the new members of course -- indulge me). If you mate each with a sub, so the LF is not a factor, then the only considerations are the SPL you require and how far you sit from the mains.

Peace.
Old 16th September 2019
  #95
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoveringBit View Post
Phil,

I'm sure Ikka can offer his well argued respond, but if I'm allowed:

There're two camps out there, with diametrically oppose opinion as to which is superior: two bigger mains alone or step-down mains + a sub.

I auditioned both and I would't give up on a sub. Yes, the 8351b has more of everything compared to the 8341, but since you're a used to working with a sub, you'd sorely miss it if was gone. The 8341 is a fantastic monitor, and if you don't need the additional SPL or the wider directivity (i.e., you don't sit far from the mains), then it's an excellent choice.

In truth, all four family members are at the top of their game (yes, I'm speculation on the new members of course -- indulge me). If you mate each with a sub, so the LF is not a factor, then the only considerations are the SPL you require and how far you sit from the mains.

Peace.
Thanks for the awesome reply.

Truth be told, I'm leaning towards keeping the 7360A sub and upgrading to the 8341A monitors.

I don't make a profit with music, so I have to watch my dollars carefully!

Lastly, I'm actually quite happy with the 8340A monitors. I feel like these are severely underrated due to the 'Ones.' But you know.., talking like that is blasphemy on GearSlutz. How dare I be happy with what I have?

My current first-world problem is my fixation on coaxial monitors.

Kind regards,

Phil
Old 16th September 2019
  #96
I asked this in another thread, but then realized this question may be better answered here:

Sorry if this has been asked, but what is the advantage of the 8361A WITH the 371 versus the 8351B with the 371? Seems like there isn't any other than possibly slightly higher SPL, which in my case, would not benefit me at all since the 8351B with the 371 would far exceed what I would need.
Old 17th September 2019
  #97
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aural Endeavors View Post
I asked this in another thread, but then realized this question may be better answered here:

Sorry if this has been asked, but what is the advantage of the 8361A WITH the 371 versus the 8351B with the 371? Seems like there isn't any other than possibly slightly higher SPL, which in my case, would not benefit me at all since the 8351B with the 371 would far exceed what I would need.
The advantage of the 8361/371 over 8351/371 is primarily in its ability to serve as a midfielder.

The 51/71 is the ultimate nearfield in the Genelec product line. If that combo differs in sound from the 61/71 in distances up to 2m, it’d probably be too difficult to detect and not necessarily for the better (check out their respective charts and discover the 51 has more favorable measures).

However, if you need to place the monitors 3 to 4 meters away, then the 61/71 is your tool of choice. The high SPL and wider directivity ensure focused delivery, which the 51/71 will struggle with.

In a midfield role, the 61/71 is quite a breakthrough. Up to recently, flush-mounting was the foremost method to achieve the best SQ with midfielders. But flush-mounting is costly, complicated and anchors the monitors pretty much for good. The 61/71 does away with all that. Structural changes aren’t necessary and placement can be easily experimented with and altered on the fly. In my opinion, the 61/71 has just sent the 1237/8 to an early grave. The 1234 and 1236 are still holding strong, being farfielders, but a 8371/381 may do them in one day.

Peace.
Old 17th September 2019
  #98
GCL
Lives for gear
 

Maybe this was missed, but I just order a pair of the 8341 anniversary edition speakers. Am I good for a few years before the 8341B version comes out?
Old 17th September 2019
  #99
Here for the gear
 

Would you guys recomend using this system as a hifi system? Just saw a film by Genelec where one of the designers talked about how you could use the DSP to EQ them for enjoyment purpousrs rather than pure analytical work.

I will never have my sound system in a accousticly treated room so having a system with an automatic DSP and a lot of eq posibilities sounds smart. I currently own a pair of G4s btw
Old 17th September 2019
  #100
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palaver View Post
Hi Ilkka,

I'm currently seeking advice regarding my setup. As of now, I'm running a pair of Genelec 8340A monitors with a single 7360A sub.

I like low end for my synthesizers and tracking, and occasionally like the low-end bump for fun. I generally mix a little bit of everything.

My room is approximately 20 ft by 15 ft and I occasionally like having high SPL. My current 8340A + 7360A sub allows for this.

I was curious as to what you'd pick in my scenario?
  1. Keep my 7360A sub and upgrade to the 8341A monitors?
  2. Sell it all and go for a pair of 8351B monitors? Would I miss the low end in this scenario?

Thanks in advance for your opinion! I'm interested in hearing your recommendation versus my PMs exchanged with Jantex.

-Phil
Hi Phil,

Thanks for your question but I find it very difficult to give recommendations or opinions to such questions. It is SO subjective which combination you prefer, also depends on your room acoustics, how well can you position the sub etc. I would not dare to make such large decision before auditioning them both.
Old 17th September 2019
  #101
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GCL View Post
Maybe this was missed, but I just order a pair of the 8341 anniversary edition speakers. Am I good for a few years before the 8341B version comes out?
While I can't give any detailed information about our possible upcoming product releases, I can assure you that 8341A monitors are one of the most recent products we have launched and there is no need to update or change them in any way.
Old 17th September 2019
  #102
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by djdeepkanga View Post
Would you guys recomend using this system as a hifi system? Just saw a film by Genelec where one of the designers talked about how you could use the DSP to EQ them for enjoyment purpousrs rather than pure analytical work.

I will never have my sound system in a accousticly treated room so having a system with an automatic DSP and a lot of eq posibilities sounds smart. I currently own a pair of G4s btw
Most definitely! There are lots of The Ones monitors used for Hi-Fi already, also the other SAM range monitors from the small 8320A to the larger 8350A etc. I know even users with our larger three-ways such as 1238A used for Hi-Fi listening only. GLM/AutoCal gives you a lot of flexibility when it comes to EQ'ing the frequency response flatter as well as tuning it bit towards enjoyment purposes.
Old 17th September 2019
  #103
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka View Post
Most definitely! There are lots of The Ones monitors used for Hi-Fi already, also the other SAM range monitors from the small 8320A to the larger 8350A etc. I know even users with our larger three-ways such as 1238A used for Hi-Fi listening only. GLM/AutoCal gives you a lot of flexibility when it comes to EQ'ing the frequency response flatter as well as tuning it bit towards enjoyment purposes.
Agree.

The literal meaning of hifi and neutrality is basically the same. So anyone chasing hifi is chasing neutrality, and vice versa.

Sadly, the word «hifi» has been twisted to mean something else, like «high-end» etc. which has no other practical definition than «expensive».
Old 17th September 2019
  #104
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by svarthvitt View Post
Agree.

The literal meaning of hifi and neutrality is basically the same. So anyone chasing hifi is chasing neutrality, and vice versa.

Sadly, the word «hifi» has been twisted to mean something else, like «high-end» etc. which has no other practical definition than «expensive».
HiFi comes from the words "high fidelity" so I think it is just fine to use Genelec monitors for such purpose.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fidelity
Old 17th September 2019
  #105
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoveringBit View Post
The advantage of the 8361/371 over 8351/371 is primarily in its ability to serve as a midfielder.

The 51/71 is the ultimate nearfield in the Genelec product line. If that combo differs in sound from the 61/71 in distances up to 2m, it’d probably be too difficult to detect and not necessarily for the better (check out their respective charts and discover the 51 has more favorable measures).

However, if you need to place the monitors 3 to 4 meters away, then the 61/71 is your tool of choice. The high SPL and wider directivity ensure focused delivery, which the 51/71 will struggle with.

In a midfield role, the 61/71 is quite a breakthrough. Up to recently, flush-mounting was the foremost method to achieve the best SQ with midfielders. But flush-mounting is costly, complicated and anchors the monitors pretty much for good. The 61/71 does away with all that. Structural changes aren’t necessary and placement can be easily experimented with and altered on the fly. In my opinion, the 61/71 has just sent the 1237/8 to an early grave. The 1234 and 1236 are still holding strong, being farfielders, but a 8371/381 may do them in one day.

Peace.
Great detailed reply. Thanks!
Old 17th September 2019
  #106
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Old 17th September 2019
  #107
Lives for gear
 

Old 17th September 2019
  #108
Here for the gear
The 8351B's look really nice. A few questions if anyone can help:

(1) Would I be able to pair a non-Genelec sub with these speakers and still use GLM correction? I have an Adam Sub10 Mk2 (which seems like the appropriate SPL for the 8351's) but wondering if this could be integrated properly with room correction.

(2) I have a fairly small studio space with moderate treatment, and am currently running a pair of Adam S2V's, which seem to fit the space fine. I just find the S2V's to be a bit fatiguing / cold sounding. I'm considering either the 8351's or the 8341's. Would it be problematic to run with the 8351's in a smaller space? I sit within 2-3 feet of the monitors.

Many thanks.
Old 18th September 2019
  #109
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dewaldian View Post
The 8351B's look really nice. A few questions if anyone can help:

(1) Would I be able to pair a non-Genelec sub with these speakers and still use GLM correction? I have an Adam Sub10 Mk2 (which seems like the appropriate SPL for the 8351's) but wondering if this could be integrated properly with room correction.

(2) I have a fairly small studio space with moderate treatment, and am currently running a pair of Adam S2V's, which seem to fit the space fine. I just find the S2V's to be a bit fatiguing / cold sounding. I'm considering either the 8351's or the 8341's. Would it be problematic to run with the 8351's in a smaller space? I sit within 2-3 feet of the monitors.

Many thanks.
I'll only touch on (2)

The minimum listening distance of both the 8341 & 8351b is 0.4m (1.3'), You should be fine on that front.

I site 4.5' away from the 8341 and don't find the slightest reason to upscale. I can assure you that in max SPL you'll lose your hearing for good. For me, since I have a sub, the whole LF issue is moot. The wider sound dispersion of the 8351b plays a small role is such short distance.

In my opinion and experience, the 8341 is idle up to 5'. For anything further, the 8351b is your weapon of choice. 7' and over calls for the 8361 to be on duty.
Old 18th September 2019
  #110
Here for the gear
 

When looking at an ambisonic installation of ~24 speakers plus 3-6 subs that could be used in rooms up to 100 people, how would the S360 compare with the 8351B (with say multiple 7360a’s)? I am having a tough time comparing spl vs coaxial design vs long throw vs wide sweet spot... especially for ambisonic playback. Thoughts Ilkka?
Old 18th September 2019
  #111
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dewaldian View Post
The 8351B's look really nice. A few questions if anyone can help:

(1) Would I be able to pair a non-Genelec sub with these speakers and still use GLM correction? I have an Adam Sub10 Mk2 (which seems like the appropriate SPL for the 8351's) but wondering if this could be integrated properly with room correction.
GLM/AutoCal works only with Genelec SAM series monitors and subwoofers. It does not work with any other type or brand. Integrating a non-Genelec subwoofer can be done via manual set up, but most probably the end result will be much worse than with Genelec SAM series subwoofer.
Old 18th September 2019
  #112
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by yvesklein66 View Post
When looking at an ambisonic installation of ~24 speakers plus 3-6 subs that could be used in rooms up to 100 people, how would the S360 compare with the 8351B (with say multiple 7360a’s)? I am having a tough time comparing spl vs coaxial design vs long throw vs wide sweet spot... especially for ambisonic playback. Thoughts Ilkka?
Hi,

Do you have more detailed information about the room? Any drawings available?

In general, coaxial designs shine in installations where listeners are not sitting directly on-axis to the monitors due to coaxial design having very similar and controlled dispersion at all listening angles. It would be my recommendation for such installation. Even the smaller 8341A would probably work really well if you have subwoofers to help with the LF.
Old 18th September 2019
  #113
Here for the gear
 

Thanks for the advice Ilkka. No drawings as of yet... long-term the installation would likely be inside a dedicated room the size of a small movie theatre, but until I get a lease on a space I will likely have the ambisonics rig set-up into different temporary spaces. My thinking was to ensure the speakers could handle the largest size room and thus I would be fine with smaller room sizes.

Given the high cost of 24 speakers + 6 subs, I was comparing the S360 or 8351a with the 8340a's since I'll have dual subs per 8-channel array (w/ 9301a's for each 8-channels) and the cost of that route is so much less. But, the coaxial 8341a's + 7360a's sound like a really great option...
Old 19th September 2019
  #114
Here for the gear
 

Ilkka- did the stand's and accessories for the Ones series get revamped as well? I ask because while the Genelec/K&M 26785 stand is still listed, the 8000-438 horizontal mounting plate is listed as discontinued (and the accessory guide is dated to March 2018 so assume just outdated). Are the stands and mounting plates getting updated?

https://www.genelec.com/sites/defaul...-bbage045g.pdf

thanks!
Old 19th September 2019
  #115
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by yvesklein66 View Post
Ilkka- did the stand's and accessories for the Ones series get revamped as well? I ask because while the Genelec/K&M 26785 stand is still listed, the 8000-438 horizontal mounting plate is listed as discontinued (and the accessory guide is dated to March 2018 so assume just outdated). Are the stands and mounting plates getting updated?

https://www.genelec.com/sites/defaul...-bbage045g.pdf

thanks!
That is still the most up to date accessories catalogue. Both 8000-400 and 8000-438 are being sold. There are no changes or updates.
Old 19th September 2019
  #116
Here for the gear
 

Ilkka,

It's been mentioned here in the thread a couple of times that if your listening distance is over 7 feet / 2 meters you should go for 8361 rather than 8351. I've got my 8351A at 3-4 meters listening distance right now, I've ordered a 7380A sub and planning to swap 8351As for a B version. But the above made me question - is there anything that really makes 8361 more suitable for a 3-4m listening distance than 8351 (apart from SPL headroom of course)? I mean, they both have identical mid/high drivers, both have 150W+150W amp section and seem to have similar directivity characteristics. I'd think it makes them pretty much indistinguishable when working together with a sub.

Is there anything I'm missing that makes 8351B + 7380 inferior to 8361 + 7380 at 3-4 m distance? Thanks!
Old 19th September 2019
  #117
Lives for gear
 

I assume it is entirely a question of how loud you need them to go. If you don't need to listen super loud I can not at all imagine needing the 8361.
Old 19th September 2019
  #118
Old 20th September 2019
  #119
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by anagorny View Post
Ilkka,

It's been mentioned here in the thread a couple of times that if your listening distance is over 7 feet / 2 meters you should go for 8361 rather than 8351. I've got my 8351A at 3-4 meters listening distance right now, I've ordered a 7380A sub and planning to swap 8351As for a B version. But the above made me question - is there anything that really makes 8361 more suitable for a 3-4m listening distance than 8351 (apart from SPL headroom of course)? I mean, they both have identical mid/high drivers, both have 150W+150W amp section and seem to have similar directivity characteristics. I'd think it makes them pretty much indistinguishable when working together with a sub.

Is there anything I'm missing that makes 8351B + 7380 inferior to 8361 + 7380 at 3-4 m distance? Thanks!
Hi,

As written before, I am not going to tell anyone which model he/she should buy - it is far too subjective and involves quite many variables. Even though 8351B and 8361A share the same coaxial driver, they are still otherwise two completely different loudspeakers and anyone should not think they sound identical even though you would combine them with one of our 7300 series subwoofer or the new W371 adaptive woofer system.

Having just spent a few hours listening to all of these combinations (I was at 3.5 meter distance), I can assure you they do not sound the same. For example, the 8361A has some clear benefits in the bass dynamics and headroom even when combined with the W371 crossed at 150 Hz, not to mention when using a lower crossover. Remember that the crossover between woofers and the mid is 320 Hz so having a subwoofer crossed at say 85 Hz leaves plenty of bandwidth for the woofers to play. And when comparing the woofer sections between the 8351B and 8361A, the latter wins by a clear margin. You don't need to be playing close to max SPL to notice this, better dynamic capability and lower distortion is realised much earlier. When playing them full range, the 8361A sounds much bigger and the bass headroom (up to 320 Hz) and extension are much better compared to 8351B event though the "raw" numbers might fool one to think they are more similar.

Go and have a demo is my best advice to all of you thinking about getting either one of them.
Old 20th September 2019
  #120
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka View Post
Hi,

As written before, I am not going to tell anyone which model he/she should buy - it is far too subjective and involves quite many variables. Even though 8351B and 8361A share the same coaxial driver, they are still otherwise two completely different loudspeakers and anyone should not think they sound identical even though you would combine them with one of our 7300 series subwoofer or the new W371 adaptive woofer system.

Having just spent a few hours listening to all of these combinations (I was at 3.5 meter distance), I can assure you they do not sound the same. For example, the 8361A has some clear benefits in the bass dynamics and headroom even when combined with the W371 crossed at 150 Hz, not to mention when using a lower crossover. Remember that the crossover between woofers and the mid is 320 Hz so having a subwoofer crossed at say 85 Hz leaves plenty of bandwidth for the woofers to play. And when comparing the woofer sections between the 8351B and 8361A, the latter wins by a clear margin. You don't need to be playing close to max SPL to notice this, better dynamic capability and lower distortion is realised much earlier. When playing them full range, the 8361A sounds much bigger and the bass headroom (up to 320 Hz) and extension are much better compared to 8351B event though the "raw" numbers might fool one to think they are more similar.

Go and have a demo is my best advice to all of you thinking about getting either one of them.
Awesome «review». Much appreciated. And it makes so much sense. Because it raises the question of size as a factor in speakers. My understanding is that size is the most obvious, yet overlooked factor. Just look at all the new tiny speakers promoted by fast moving salesmen, small speakers hyped up to play like a big speaker. That illusion may work up to a point, until your more trained ear, after some «slow listening» takes that illusion apart.

Let me offer a philosophical reason (rant, really ) why modern Western man thinks small can play like big. Believing the world is linear - which is the pervasive idea of modernity - fools you into thinking (normal) numbers on the spec sheet tell it all. However, the world may be better described logarithmically or otherwise where linearity becomes irrelevant. Just one example: 4 out of 10 octaves are under 300 Hertz. Does this mean about 40 percent of the sound of loudspeakers can be attributed to «bass»? The bass is obviously more important than 300/20.000 = 1.5%.

Then comes the size of the waveguide too...

If you don’t have the space, you cannot - of course - utilise big speakers. And if you sit close, small can play loud and convincing (headphones are a good example of «close»). If you have the space, I have yet to meet a convincing argument that size is irrelevant.

It is in this respect I think the W371 makes sense as a tool for ultimate sound seekers. Lower frequencies are no longer a neglected area as it was in the 1980s, where low distortion woofers etc were hard to come by. And Zwicker’s 24 Frequenzgruppen of the ISO standards of 1961 - which assumed linearity in lower frequencies - are no longer a guide for outstanding reproduction of sounds
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