The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Genelec announces 8351B and 8361A coaxial monitors and W371A Adaptive Woofer System
Old 10th September 2019
  #61
Gear Head
 

Hi Ikka

So based on the informations on the S360, there's no way to figure out
the maximum short term SPL that the monitor can produce under 100 Hz ?

Is there a way to calculate it, based on the 100Hz-3kHz figure ?

Thank you
Old 10th September 2019
  #62
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzy Pidjay View Post
Hi Ikka

So based on the informations on the S360, there's no way to figure out
the maximum short term SPL that the monitor can produce under 100 Hz ?

Is there a way to calculate it, based on the 100Hz-3kHz figure ?

Thank you
That is correct, <100 Hz maximum SPL data is not available and it is not possible to calculate it from the available data. It is very much dependent on the specific design, woofer excursion capability, Helmholtz tuning, reflex port, amplifier power, enclosure volume etc. Also, the actual achievable maximum SPL at the low frequencies is greatly affected by the room and its gain / room modes.
Old 10th September 2019
  #63
Gear Head
 

Thank you very much
Old 10th September 2019
  #64
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

If you missed the Facebook livestream from the launch event, here is the recording of it for your viewing pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7sJ...ature=youtu.be
Old 10th September 2019
  #65
Here for the gear
 

Ilkka, thanks for your answers!

How different would you say 8351A vs 8351B are in music reproduction outside of the SPL and room correction aspects? Could you tell a difference between them in a double blind test? What specific aspects of performance are improved over 8351A through new mid-range driver, larger tweeter etc.? Also curious why you went from 3/4" to 1" tweeter on the 8351B

Thanks!
Old 10th September 2019
  #66
Lives for gear
@ Ilkka ,

in some use cases, W371 may lift the monitor too high, so tilting is needed.

Is there a maximum tilt, X°, recommended for the monitor atop W371, see picture below?

(Please have in mind that 8341, 8351 and 8361 can be placed atop either vertically or horizontally, so indicate if horizontal/vertical mode influences maximum tilt).

Will you provide any mounting products - apart from the usual Isopods - or suggestions on how to tilt the monitor atop W371?


Old 10th September 2019
  #67
Lives for gear
 

Has anyone bothered to do the math before asking questions about height?
The top of the W371 is 1108 mm. With any standard seating (task chair) height/tilt for the top speaker is not going to be an issue.

For the 8361, acoustic center vertically would be 1404.5 mm, horizontally would be 1286.5 mm (which is near perfect)
For the 8351, acoustic center vertically would be 1334.5 mm, horizontally would be 1247 mm
(I'd really question the judgement of anyone buying a pair of W371 at 15.200 euros to use with 8331)

(perfect being the range of 1200 mm to 1350 mm with 1280 mm best)

As the Ones are coaxial speakers, orientation isn't going to matter much and directivity is cone-like. Meaning there's a pretty large area both vertically and horizontally (no matter the speaker orientation) of flexibility on height.


Now if you are sitting on a couch... well...
Old 10th September 2019
  #68
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
Has anyone bothered to do the math before asking questions about height?
The top of the W371 is 1108 mm. With any standard seating (task chair) height/tilt for the top speaker is not going to be an issue.

For the 8361, acoustic center vertically would be 1404.5 mm, horizontally would be 1286.5 mm (which is near perfect)
For the 8351, acoustic center vertically would be 1334.5 mm, horizontally would be 1247 mm
(I'd really question the judgement of anyone buying a pair of W371 at 15.200 euros to use with 8331)

(perfect being the range of 1200 mm to 1350 mm with 1280 mm best)

As the Ones are coaxial speakers, orientation isn't going to matter much and directivity is cone-like. Meaning there's a pretty large area both vertically and horizontally (no matter the speaker orientation) of flexibility on height.


Now if you are sitting on a couch... well...
Math is not my problem.

Below is another example, a Focal, of stacked speaker drivers with tilting options for optimising summation of drivers.

The rubber isopods are convenient for tilting. The wooden s360 isopod not so convenient.

Old 11th September 2019
  #69
Lives for gear
 

Good thing these aren't the Focals and are coaxial speakers.
A 2-way like the S360 (which is not meant to be a nearfield placed speaker), would not need a tilt either. Speaker dispersion at distance is pretty easy to see why.

And tilt downward is a bad idea anyway acoustically.

There's a better chance speakers may need to be elevated depending on size.
Genelec did their homework on the size of the W. Their largest (freestanding) and smallest will work just fine with it.
Old 11th September 2019
  #70
Lives for gear
 
ARIEL's Avatar
Looks amazing ! what will the prices be in canada or the USA?
Old 11th September 2019
  #71
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by svarthvitt View Post
@ Ilkka ,

in some use cases, W371 may lift the monitor too high, so tilting is needed.

Is there a maximum tilt, X°, recommended for the monitor atop W371, see picture below?
The Iso-Pod allows about 10-12° forward tilt. That would be a good starting point. S360 is of course another case where tilting requires some extra efforts.
Old 11th September 2019
  #72
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by anagorny View Post
Ilkka, thanks for your answers!

How different would you say 8351A vs 8351B are in music reproduction outside of the SPL and room correction aspects? Could you tell a difference between them in a double blind test? What specific aspects of performance are improved over 8351A through new mid-range driver, larger tweeter etc.? Also curious why you went from 3/4" to 1" tweeter on the 8351B

Thanks!
"How different", as a subjective difference, is always very difficult for an engineer to reply. Numbers are much easier in that sense. But yes, I am confident I could pick them out in a double blind test, difference especially in the LF output is so huge it won't go unnoticed.

The coaxial driver has been totally redesigned. There is no single shared part with the original 1st generation coax, originally introduced in 8260A model back in 2009. The 2nd generation coax was introduced in 2017 in 8331A and 8341A monitors, and now we have the 3rd generation which shares some design principles but not actual parts with the 31/41 coax.

Here is a short list of changes between the 1st and 3rd generation coax drivers.
  • neodymium magnet vs. ferrite which reduces the mass of the driver
  • 1 inch tweeter vs. 3/4" which leads to higher SPL capability but also larger bandwidth (up to 43 kHz)
  • larger voice coil to provide more power handling as well as help to drive the cone from an optimum position
  • lower woofer to mid crossover (470 Hz to 320 Hz)
  • higher mid to tweeter crossover (2600 Hz to 2800 Hz)
  • better overall performance, lower distortion
  • better manufacturability and tighter tolerances
Old 11th September 2019
  #73
Lives for gear
@ Ilkka ,

the 8361 and S360 have equal stated SPL capacity of 118 dB. The detailed manual of 8361 is not yet published. So I wondered if I should interpret the stated SPL of 118 dB for each model as an indication that they are equal in terms of headroom. Or does the S360 have another «gear» which is not readily readable from a few specifications?

One more question: When adding W371 to the equation, what happens in a system consisting of say 8361 and W371? The new 8361 woofer works up to 320 Hz, right? That’s exactly the area where W371 works. So will the 8361 woofer work full range while at the same time having support from W371? Or is the 8361 woofer being cut off somewhere in the 30-320 Hz band when performing in tandem with W371?
Old 11th September 2019
  #74
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by svarthvitt View Post
@ Ilkka ,

the 8361 and S360 have equal stated SPL capacity of 118 dB. The detailed manual of 8361 is not yet published. So I wondered if I should interpret the stated SPL of 118 dB for each model as an indication that they are equal in terms of headroom. Or does the S360 have another «gear» which is not readily readable from a few specifications?
The short-term maximum SPL value is specified as an average value from 100 Hz to 3000 Hz. From a pure mathematical point of view they are very similar, but of course there are some differences when zooming in. When looking at the max SPL data more closely, we can see that the 8361A is little bit stronger at LF due to larger enclosure, more radiating driver area and more amplifier power. On the other hand the S360 is a little bit stronger in mid and treble areas due to higher acoustic sensitivity of the system. In real life use they both are very high-SPL monitors.

Quote:
One more question: When adding W371 to the equation, what happens in a system consisting of say 8361 and W371? The new 8361 woofer works up to 320 Hz, right? That’s exactly the area where W371 works. So will the 8361 woofer work full range while at the same time having support from W371? Or is the 8361 woofer being cut off somewhere in the 30-320 Hz band when performing in tandem with W371?
When using any monitor with the W371, a high pass filter will be set to a specific frequency, depending on the selected operating mode and the acoustical parameters of the room. In other words, the woofer bandwidth of the monitor will be restricted like with a traditional subwoofer, but possibly at a much higher frequency. There won't be any overlapping of the bands between the W371 and the monitor.
Old 11th September 2019
  #75
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka View Post
The short-term maximum SPL value is specified as an average value from 100 Hz to 3000 Hz. From a pure mathematical point of view they are very similar, but of course there are some differences when zooming in. When looking at the max SPL data more closely, we can see that the 8361A is little bit stronger at LF due to larger enclosure, more radiating driver area and more amplifier power. On the other hand the S360 is a little bit stronger in mid and treble areas due to higher acoustic sensitivity of the system. In real life use they both are very high-SPL monitors.


When using any monitor with the W371, a high pass filter will be set to a specific frequency, depending on the selected operating mode and the acoustical parameters of the room. In other words, the woofer bandwidth of the monitor will be restricted like with a traditional subwoofer, but possibly at a much higher frequency. There won't be any overlapping of the bands between the W371 and the monitor.
Hmmh...your answer provides food for thought

My (5) questions in bold font

In a system comprising W371 and 8341/8351/8361, it seems like W371 will take over the entire woofer operation of the combined system. (1) Does this mean the woofers of 8341/51/61 will stay idle when those monitors run in tandem with W371?

The 8341 has a smaller treble and mid driver than 8351 and 8361; 8351 and 8361 share the same treble and mid driver. (2) If the woofer of 8351 and 8361 stay idle in a W371+8351/61 system, there is no reason to choose 8361 from an SPL point of view, is there?

The waveguides of 8351 and 8361 are different in the sense that the 8361 box is bigger. (3) The (very difficult...) question is in what ways makes the size of the box a difference when 8351or 8361 are combined with W371?

The 8341 is simply a smaller monitor than 8351 and 8361 as it has smaller treble and mid drivers, so choosing this monitor in a W371 system seems to be a not so good match in terms of output capacity?

In other words: (4) Doesn't the 8351b seem to be the most intelligent choice if one were to use one of The Ones in a W371 system? It seems like the bigger waveguide of the 8361 is the biggest unknown in this equation that could alter this conclusion?

Then comes the more classical S360 which has two drivers only. Here, the 10 inch woofer goes up to 1400 Hz. So this driver will undoubtedly be running in every use case when combined with W371. Which means W371+S360 is a full 3-way with a bit higher SPL capacity than a W371+8351/61 based system. (5) Did I reason somewhat correctly?
Old 11th September 2019
  #76
Lives for gear
 
JSt0rm's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by svarthvitt View Post
Hmmh...your answer provides food for thought

My (5) questions in bold font

In a system comprising W371 and 8341/8351/8361, it seems like W371 will take over the entire woofer operation of the combined system. (1) Does this mean the woofers of 8341/51/61 will stay idle when those monitors run in tandem with W371?

The 8341 has a smaller treble and mid driver than 8351 and 8361; 8351 and 8361 share the same treble and mid driver. (2) If the woofer of 8351 and 8361 stay idle in a W371+8351/61 system, there is no reason to choose 8361 from an SPL point of view, is there?

The waveguides of 8351 and 8361 are different in the sense that the 8361 box is bigger. (3) The (very difficult...) question is in what ways makes the size of the box a difference when 8351or 8361 are combined with W371?

The 8341 is simply a smaller monitor than 8351 and 8361 as it has smaller treble and mid drivers, so choosing this monitor in a W371 system seems to be a not so good match in terms of output capacity?

In other words: (4) Doesn't the 8351b seem to be the most intelligent choice if one were to use one of The Ones in a W371 system? It seems like the bigger waveguide of the 8361 is the biggest unknown in this equation that could alter this conclusion?

Then comes the more classical S360 which has two drivers only. Here, the 10 inch woofer goes up to 1400 Hz. So this driver will undoubtedly be running in every use case when combined with W371. Which means W371+S360 is a full 3-way with a bit higher SPL capacity than a W371+8351/61 based system. (5) Did I reason somewhat correctly?
nothing is idle. The woofers in the ones will do the work above the cut off frequency.
Old 11th September 2019
  #77
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
nothing is idle. The woofers in the ones will do the work above the cut off frequency.
W371 operates between 23 and 500 Hz. The woofer of 8351 and 8361 at about 40 to 320 Hz. If the W371 operates across 23 to 320 Hz, what is there for the woofers of 8351 and 8361 to do?
Old 11th September 2019
  #78
Lives for gear
 
JSt0rm's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by svarthvitt View Post
W371 operates between 23 and 500 Hz. The woofer of 8351 and 8361 at about 40 to 320 Hz. If the W371 operates across 23 to 320 Hz, what is there for the woofers of 8351 and 8361 to do?
he mentioned earlier that it wont go up this high normally.
Old 11th September 2019
  #79
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
he mentioned earlier that it wont go up this high normally.
What @ Ilkka said, was (my underlining):

«Typically we have seen that setting the crossover over 300-350 Hz does not improve the end result. The monitor's coaxial driver i.e. acoustical axis should be pointing to the listeners ears / be at the same level. The front woofer of the W371 will then naturally sit little bit lower.

The front woofer should not be completely blocked by a massive obstacle such as a table, but typically partial shadowing does not yet cause large issues. Of course it also depends on the crossover used. You should think about it as a traditional three-way loudspeaker. Typically you would not want to block its woofer.
»
Source: Genelec 8351 - Anyone else using these?

In other words, the W371 operates at best up to ca. 320 Hz, which is - probably NOT incidentally - where the coaxial mid-treble takes over.

This is why I wonder if W371 makes the woofer of 8351/8361 redundant in many use cases.
Old 11th September 2019
  #80
Lives for gear
 
JSt0rm's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by svarthvitt View Post
What @ Ilkka said, was (my underlining):

«Typically we have seen that setting the crossover over 300-350 Hz does not improve the end result. The monitor's coaxial driver i.e. acoustical axis should be pointing to the listeners ears / be at the same level. The front woofer of the W371 will then naturally sit little bit lower.

The front woofer should not be completely blocked by a massive obstacle such as a table, but typically partial shadowing does not yet cause large issues. Of course it also depends on the crossover used. You should think about it as a traditional three-way loudspeaker. Typically you would not want to block its woofer.
»
Source: Genelec 8351 - Anyone else using these?

In other words, the W371 operates at best up to ca. 320 Hz, which is - probably NOT incidentally - where the coaxial mid-treble takes over.

This is why I wonder if W371 makes the woofer of 8351/8361 redundant in many use cases.
Im sure he will answer but I see the crossover of the 8351a at 470 Hz, 2.6 kHz in the spec sheet. Not sure if the 8351b changed that. Seems unlikely.
Old 11th September 2019
  #81
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
Im sure he will answer but I see the crossover of the 8351a at 470 Hz, 2.6 kHz in the spec sheet. Not sure if the 8351b changed that. Seems unlikely.
Just above (#72) @ Ilkka wrote:

«lower woofer to mid crossover (470 Hz to 320 Hz)»
Source: Genelec announces 8351B and 8361A coaxial monitors and W371A Adaptive Woofer System

(See this one as well: https://community.genelec.com/web/gu...essage_1385861)

I interpreted that as new crossover limits for 8351b and 8361, which are just around the upper best performing limit of W371.

Do you follow my reasoning?

Old 11th September 2019
  #82
Lives for gear
 
JSt0rm's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by svarthvitt View Post
Just above (#72) @ Ilkka wrote:

«lower woofer to mid crossover (470 Hz to 320 Hz)»
Source: Genelec announces 8351B and 8361A coaxial monitors and W371A Adaptive Woofer System

(See this one as well: https://community.genelec.com/web/gu...essage_1385861)

I interpreted that as new crossover limits for 8351b and 8361, which are just around the upper best performing limit of W371.

Do you follow my reasoning?

I think the lower woofer crosses over at 470hz and the mid woofer corsses over at 2.6khz (8351a). I dont think they would create the system to just not utilize parts of the speaker.
Old 12th September 2019
  #83
Here for the gear
 

W371 tailor-makes monitoring to a room in new ways. However, important qualities, such as in-room frequency response or system delay, can always be trimmed further/constrained in GLM. That also goes for the highest allowable crossover frequency between W371 and the Ones.

Point source radiation is most important at mid and high frequency, but for perceptual reasons, I prefer the principle extended down to around 200 Hz; so that has mostly been where I ended with W371, in a variety of rooms. If you have a large SSL in front of the W371s (like at Metropolis), you also wouldn’t go much higher, though the calibration system would recognise this automatically.

Considering the only setup mode available so far (“complementary”), the four woofers per side don’t overlap in frequency. However, regardless of crossovers, woofers in the Ones go deep when you switch between Nearfield (Ones standalone) and Main (Ones+W371) in GLM.
Old 12th September 2019
  #84
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by svarthvitt View Post
Hmmh...your answer provides food for thought

My (5) questions in bold font
Hi,

I think you are being little bit too black and white (pun intended) here. You should not think it as a fixed system. Like Thomas wrote, the system is highly intelligible and adaptable, meaning the crossover can and will be different from operation mode, system and room to another, there is no fixed setting.

Last edited by Ilkka; 12th September 2019 at 09:19 AM..
Old 12th September 2019
  #85
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSt0rm View Post
I think the lower woofer crosses over at 470hz and the mid woofer corsses over at 2.6khz (8351a). I dont think they would create the system to just not utilize parts of the speaker.
Hi,

There is no "lower woofer" or "mid woofer". Both racetrack shaped woofers operate within the same bandwidth which is from LF to 320 Hz in the case of 8351B and 8361A. From there on the mid range cone of the coaxial takes over and operates up to 2800 Hz, where above is the tweeter's turn to produce signal up to 43 kHz.
Old 12th September 2019
  #86
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka View Post
Hi,

I think you are being little bit too black and white (pun intended) here. You should not think it as a fixed system. Like Thomas wrote, the system is highly intelligible and adaptable, meaning the crossover can and will be different from operation mode, system and room to another, there is not fixed setting.
Still looks like 8361 is king, then

This is what happens when you creat novel technology; it sparks stupid questions

Having said that, there’s been very much to learn on these pages. So thanks for being so open on your technology and design choices
Old 12th September 2019
  #87
Lives for gear
 
JSt0rm's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka View Post
Hi,

There is no "lower woofer" or "mid woofer". Both racetrack shaped woofers operate within the same bandwidth which is from LF to 320 Hz in the case of 8351B and 8361A. From there on the mid range cone of the coaxial takes over and operates up to 2800 Hz, where above is the tweeter's turn to produce signal up to 43 kHz.
yeah. I meant the mid range cone. My vocabulary is that of a 4 year old.
Old 14th September 2019
  #88
GCL
Lives for gear
 

I just order a pair of the 8341 anniversary edition speakers. Am I good for a few years before the 8341B version comes out?
Old 14th September 2019
  #89
Lives for gear
 
JSt0rm's Avatar
hey all, Just gonna leave this here. My buddy is a scripting master and we have made this script...




hardware dim and mute plus my sit stand and a future playback room set up.



We had to use x/y coordinates.

to genelec make this easier... most constant buttons should have names. You coded it as a picture with coordinates so thats how we have to get into it.


*gonna crosspost this a little bit
Old 16th September 2019
  #90
Gear Maniac
 
Ilkka's Avatar
 

>>Moved here form another Genelec thread.>>

Quote:
Originally Posted by HoveringBit View Post
Ikka,

A few more questions on the W371 please:

(1)
Does Genelec have placement guidelines? Specifically, can it be placed a distance away from the walls? Like in the middle of the room?
There will be more detailed placement guidelines later on, but in general terms the W371 allows more flexible placement compared to traditional omnidirectional subwoofers. As shown in the marketing materials, it can be placed just behind the meter bridge and have the monitors sitting on top of it, acting as speaker stands. Another option is to place the W371s more like traditional subwoofers, closer to the front wall/corners and have the monitors still in the near field.


Quote:
(2)
Can it be placed alongside the monitor? Mine are truss mounted, 80cm off the ground, which doesn’t leave clearance for the W371. I could place the bass tower in parallel though.
Yes, it can be placed alongside the monitor.


Quote:
(3)
Is it possible to assign a W371 to the L/R monitors of a multi-channel setup with the GLM taking their existence into account?
Yes, this is exactly how it is done. W371 will be 'paired' with a monitor to allow them work together as a system.

Quote:
(4)
Is there a mode which obviates the need for 73x0 sub all together?
It depends what kind of system you have in mind? The W371 has only single channel input/output, it does not have LFE channel support. It is meant for supporting near field monitors typically in stereo systems. It is not like a traditional subwoofer.

Last edited by Ilkka; 16th September 2019 at 10:47 AM..
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump