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Old 13th September 2019
  #1171
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Was this akin to white noise? If so, the VA might be adding dither.
It’s a great idea, and a perfect explanation based on the information I wrote. I even had to focus to remember what I did. I have no excuse for the following link except for being too sleepy to do anything meaningful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf5Ye1826ZM

It seems strange. I wrote a detailed description of what I did. Reaper adds dither only on File/Render, and you can turn it on and off. When you render or freeze a track, it should not. I think it’s crazy what you see on the video.

(Yes, I repeated the test and recorded it today. Soon, it will be 4K. At the moment it’s 1080p only on YouTube.)
Old 13th September 2019
  #1172
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mage View Post
It’s a great idea, and a perfect explanation based on the information I wrote. I even had to focus to remember what I did. I have no excuse for the following link except for being too sleepy to do anything meaningful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf5Ye1826ZM

It seems strange. I wrote a detailed description of what I did. Reaper adds dither only on File/Render, and you can turn it on and off. When you render or freeze a track, it should not. I think it’s crazy what you see on the video.

(Yes, I repeated the test and recorded it today. Soon, it will be 4K. At the moment it’s 1080p only on YouTube.)
I didn't watch the whole video but Kick 2 can act a bit strangely in my experience. At least that is what I found in Cubase. So I bounce it ASAP and then work with the bounced audio. Reaper might also be acting a bit strangely but I'd look at what Kick 2 is doing first. (If you can be bothered that is. ).

Alistair
Old 13th September 2019
  #1173
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
I didn't watch the whole video but Kick 2 can act a bit strangely in my experience. At least that is what I found in Cubase. So I bounce it ASAP and then work with the bounced audio. Reaper might also be acting a bit strangely but I'd look at what Kick 2 is doing first. (If you can be bothered that is. ).

Alistair
I rendered the Kick before I did anything else. I did the test using a loop of a single beat as an audio file.

In general, you are right. When I tested the timing of DAWs and plugins, Kick 2 was one of the least reliable instrument. It didn’t matter in this test. I could have recorded the meow of a cat and use it. I just didn’t have cat food at home to lure one to the microphone.

I doubt you could explain what happened after you watched it. And don’t take the above as criticism.
Old 15th September 2019
  #1174
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by screentan View Post
Me too but by the time I got VSM 3 it was so tiny on my screen I've barely used it due to that fact. HG2 is ok thankfully.

Just picked up PEX500 for $4 with my monthly $25 voucher. Felt like the old days again.
Just picked up bx_console SSL 4000 E for $24.99.

E-Mailed offer of $49.99 for this weekend only deal and applied my personal montly voucher of $25 to this as well.

Will these deals keep on coming but via E-Mails to previous customers or people subscribed to their mailing list?
Old 15th September 2019
  #1175
Lives for gear
 
Sleazy_Rider's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune45 View Post
Just picked up bx_console SSL 4000 E for $24.99.

E-Mailed offer of $49.99 for this weekend only deal and applied my personal montly voucher of $25 to this as well.

Will these deals keep on coming but via E-Mails to previous customers or people subscribed to their mailing list?
Only PA knows
Old 15th September 2019
  #1176
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mage View Post
I rendered the Kick before I did anything else. I did the test using a loop of a single beat as an audio file.
Ah gotcha. Like I said, I didn't watch the whole (or much of) the video.

Quote:
I doubt you could explain what happened after you watched it. And don’t take the above as criticism.
I started watching it again. No offence but it is too long, completely unclear and contains potential errors.

If you really want to demonstrate something with a video you need to work out a script before hand so you know exactly what you are going to do and show it clearly and quickly. You have to place yourself in the viewer's mind and figure out which information is relevant and which is not.

You have to cut it down to the pure essentials with an explanation of each step... So prepare everything before hand, remove all unnecessary bits (Like the Kick 2 bit that is completely irrelevant), just start with the sample and cut out ALL unnecessary steps (like don't save every 2 seconds. Don't save at all actually as it adds nothing to the demonstration! I really mean cut out everything that doesn't add to the clarity of the video).

Also there are steps that are unclear for someone (like me) that doesn't use Reaper. At some point you select stuff and then the waveform size changes even though we don't see you do anything (maybe a key command but that is of course useless in a demo video as we can't see what you are doing). You have to assume people don't know Reaper and don't know what you are doing.

And there are steps that clearly should not be happening like changing a clip from 32 to 64 bit float, you should have the whole of Reaper set to 64 bit float before hand to avoid the need for these kind of steps. Such steps introduce the potential for (operator) errors. Etc.

Alistair
Old 15th September 2019
  #1177
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Ah gotcha. Like I said, I didn't watch the whole (or much of) the video.



I started watching it again. No offence but it is too long, completely unclear and contains potential errors.

If you really want to demonstrate something with a video you need to work out a script before hand so you know exactly what you are going to do and show it clearly and quickly. You have to place yourself in the viewer's mind and figure out which information is relevant and which is not.

You have to cut it down to the pure essentials with an explanation of each step... So prepare everything before hand, remove all unnecessary bits (Like the Kick 2 bit that is completely irrelevant), just start with the sample and cut out ALL unnecessary steps (like don't save every 2 seconds. Don't save at all actually as it adds nothing to the demonstration! I really mean cut out everything that doesn't add to the clarity of the video).

Also there are steps that are unclear for someone (like me) that doesn't use Reaper. At some point you select stuff and then the waveform size changes even though we don't see you do anything (maybe a key command but that is of course useless in a demo video as we can't see what you are doing). You have to assume people don't know Reaper and don't know what you are doing.

And there are steps that clearly should not be happening like changing a clip from 32 to 64 bit float, you should have the whole of Reaper set to 64 bit float before hand to avoid the need for these kind of steps. Such steps introduce the potential for (operator) errors. Etc.

Alistair
There was maybe 30 seconds unneeded. I was sleepy enough to find it funny when I could not type in the gain.

The rest of it was needed since I know the usual reactions. If I don’t render the audio there, then "it was because the wav file was special/corrupted". If I cut the video, then it must be what I did in the cut out scene.

That’s why I didn’t cut it. You still told me, there could be potential errors. That’s true. There could be potential errors anywhere at any time in the Universe. At least, at some point of view. In another aspect, it’s perfect and it has always been.

But if there were errors, where were they?

I understand that you don’t use Reaper. That’s why I wrote all the information you mentioned you were missing into the description of the video, in advance.

I get if you don’t have 10-20 minutes to watch it. Most of the time, I am busy like hell too. But it the end, it makes the discussions on the forums pointless. Almost everyone has their opinion, only a few people try to demonstrate anything, and even fewer will look into the demonstrations.

Update: since you put effort into trying to watch it again, I will show my respect with a summary here:

1. There are at least three places for sample rate and bit depth in Reaper. (Most DAWs have at least two of these but many of them let you change only one). There is one for your audio device. There is one for the recorded/rendered/bounced audio. And there is the internal mixing. You can change these settings by one as you wish. The internal mixing is default 64 bit float. Changing the recording format does not change the internal mixing format.

2. I normalized the wav when the peaks changed. Every time. I did nothing else to it.

3. It was null testing audio files that went through the gain plugins. I changed the recording bit depth. One of them made a noise. I am not even sure it was because of the bit depth. But KS Gain didn’t produce that noise.
Old 15th September 2019
  #1178
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mage View Post
There was maybe 30 seconds unneeded. I was sleepy enough to find it funny when I could not type in the gain.

The rest of it was needed since I know the usual reactions. If I don’t render the audio there, then "it was because the wav file was special/corrupted". If I cut the video, then it must be what I did in the cut out scene.

That’s why I didn’t cut it. You still told me, there could be potential errors. That’s true. There could be potential errors anywhere at any time in the Universe. At least, at some point of view. In another aspect, it’s perfect and it has always been.

But if there were errors, where were they?

I understand that you don’t use Reaper. That’s why I wrote all the information you mentioned you were missing into the description of the video, in advance.

I get if you don’t have 10-20 minutes to watch it. Most of the time, I am busy like hell too. But it the end, it makes the discussions on the forums pointless. Almost everyone has their opinion, only a few people try to demonstrate anything, and even fewer will look into the demonstrations.

Update: since you put effort into trying to watch it again, I will show my respect with a summary here:

1. There are at least three places for sample rate and bit depth in Reaper. (Most DAWs have at least two of these but many of them let you change only one). There is one for your audio device. There is one for the recorded/rendered/bounced audio. And there is the internal mixing. You can change these settings by one as you wish. The internal mixing is default 64 bit float. Changing the recording format does not change the internal mixing format.

2. I normalized the wav when the peaks changed. Every time. I did nothing else to it.

3. It was null testing audio files that went through the gain plugins. I changed the recording bit depth. One of them made a noise. I am not even sure it was because of the bit depth. But KS Gain didn’t produce that noise.
First, don't get me wrong. I applaud you making the effort to explain and demonstrate your point! It just wasn't clear for me as I don't use Reaper so I can't follow all the steps you made.

For instance, at some point I see you clicking on a window (Project Settings) changing the render bit depth from 32 float to 64 float, after you already rendered/normalised one of the clips. At least that is what it looks like. To me that means you have the render bit depth set to 32 float rather than 64 float originally. Is that correct? If that is the case, that to me is a point were an error could occur. Or at least the wrong conclusion might be drawn.

Btw, the sound at 7:15 and 8:28 sounds like quantisation distortion, not dither.

Alistair
Old 15th September 2019
  #1179
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
First, don't get me wrong. I applaud you making the effort to explain and demonstrate your point! It just wasn't clear for me as I don't use Reaper so I can't follow all the steps you made.

For instance, at some point I see you clicking on a window (Project Settings) changing the render bit depth from 32 float to 64 float, after you already rendered/normalised one of the clips. At least that is what it looks like. To me that means you have the render bit depth set to 32 float rather than 64 float originally. Is that correct? If that is the case, that to me is a point were an error could occur. Or at least the wrong conclusion might be drawn.

Btw, the sound at 7:15 and 8:28 sounds like quantisation distortion, not dither.

Alistair
(If I wanted to make a proper video, I would have spent five days on it. You know, I’ve spent about a year on my first track, and it’s not yet finished).

I would give at least 80% chance that you use Cubase. I think so because it’s the only DAW I’ve ever tried that could not do on the fly sample rate conversion. When I saw it the first time, I thought it was 1st of April or something. I guess think bit-depth conversion is easier because even Cubase must do it all the time. Many DAWs use 64-bit float for mixing. It means, as soon as you record the audio in anything else than 64-bit float, they will convert it both on recording and on playback. When you add files, they also do it on the fly. (Please don’t tell me Cubase can’t do that one either. I’m too scared to try it).

If I add a 24-bit FLAC file to the project and render it in 32-bit, and then 64-bit, all of them will null each other.

Since the mixing happens in 64-bit every time, the audio must pass the VA in 64-bit float too, and when Reaper saves it, it can’t be corrupted because it would do the same when I used the Gain plugin.

The only explanation I could come up with was that the issue had nothing to do with the fact I switched from 32-bit to 64-bit. It was because the VA plugin, in general, was much less accurate than the KS Gain plugin. I could test it but let the mystery remain for a while.

Likely, you meant the same with the quantization distortion.

The video purpose was to demonstrate a single thing. "Don’t believe anything you are told until you confirmed it."

I would say, in 90% of the cases, it’s not true. Okay. It’s more likely 95%.

In my experience, the bugs "you could never notice while listening" add up over time, or come out in a worse form, and it’s better to avoid them as much as you can.

I had a MIDI piano roll that changed the sound of the ~30 seconds bounce if you cut off or skipped the first 1/16th note. I could not reproduce it with another MIDI file even after matching the note lengths in maximum zoom om my monitor. It took me half a year to figure out what happened. And that wasn’t a test but the main lead of the track.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1180
Thank you, God, to put wisdom into my head, and making me find an agreement with PA.

That’s why I can have LION.

Wow!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1181
Gear Guru
I must spread a little PIA love here. With the sales was able to fatten up on the Townhouse, HG2, BAX and add them to the Vertigos that I use all the time. Well designed classy products with great sounds and useful presets. I bemoan the insane sales apparent demise as I'd fatten up more on Acme and Iron if able. As it stands I have so many EQs, comps and saturators, it'll take insane sales to make me buy something that at this point is overkill for my needs!...(Handing in my Slut status).....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1182
Lives for gear
 
Sleazy_Rider's Avatar
 

Few sales lately and I can get Lion for 24 bucks...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1183
Lives for gear
 
screentan's Avatar
 

Didn't think there would be so many great voucher deals this month. Alas spent my voucher in the first few days before all these deals started dropping. Feels like the good old days again.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #1184
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by screentan View Post
Didn't think there would be so many great voucher deals this month. Alas spent my voucher in the first few days before all these deals started dropping. Feels like the good old days again.
Yeah, same here, next month gonna keep the voucher in the hope of a really good plugin being offered on sale before I use it.
Black Friday sales should be interesting as well now hopefully.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1185
Lives for gear
 
PettyCash's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune45 View Post
Yeah, same here, next month gonna keep the voucher in the hope of a really good plugin being offered on sale before I use it.
Black Friday sales should be interesting as well now hopefully.
The PA poker game is back on!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1186
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1187
Lives for gear
 
Monkey Man's Avatar
 

Wuddun, mate.

I love me some Psy Trance.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1188
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mage View Post
And here is my first track ever.

Enjoy!

https://soundcloud.com/stareintolight/know-everything
Good stuff. Keep going
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1189
Gear Guru
 
Jeezo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mage View Post
And here is my first track ever.

Enjoy!

https://soundcloud.com/stareintolight/know-everything
I hear to much PA .... lol

Great , you look peacefull on the pic or maybe trying to stay calm with PA support lol ...

The title is great also lol ...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1190
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mage View Post
And here is my first track ever.

Enjoy!

https://soundcloud.com/stareintolight/know-everything
absolute crap
but maybe when you make another 100 crappy tracks like this and realize what kind of **** it is and change the approach to creativity, then maybe something interesting will start
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
I hear to much PA .... lol

Great , you look peacefull on the pic or maybe trying to stay calm with PA support lol ...
That was the funniest line I’ve read for a long time.

This week, a miracle happened, and I had some progress even with Softube’s support. I don’t know. Maybe the Climate Crisis changes the people for the better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post

The title is great also lol ...
Thanks. Have you seen The Expanse? Best series ever. The voice samples are from it.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1192
Quote:
Originally Posted by killme View Post
absolute crap
but maybe when you make another 100 crappy tracks like this and realize what kind of **** it is and change the approach to creativity, then maybe something interesting will start
Don’t be that self-critical. There is always hope.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1193
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by killme View Post
absolute crap
but maybe when you make another 100 crappy tracks like this and realize what kind of **** it is and change the approach to creativity, then maybe something interesting will start
Harsh.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1194
Gear Addict
 
BadYodeler's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mage View Post
And here is my first track ever.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1195
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune45 View Post
Harsh.
Unfortunately, my mix is hash too. I know.

I could not afford more time on it as it didn’t get better. My favorite mix was v39 (version 39). The one I published is v102. There were 250GB of stems (frozen-unfrozen tracks, mostly).

Now I should spend a few weeks only on learning how to EQ. Except for one or two surgical fixes HP filters, there is no EQ in the mix. (As usual, the more I tried, the worse it became.)

I mean, I know that the frequencies should not collide. Usually, it killed the sound when I tried to remove some bands.

Also, the mix got brighter and brighter over time. It’s freaking bright now. I put a bx_refinement on the master and Weiss instances on a few buses to help it. Also, I removed a 10.5kHz noise with Neutron 3 EQ in dynamic mode. That’s it.

Ozone made it even brighter and harsher. In the end, it’s Waves Abbey Road TG on the master, bx_refinement, and Weiss in limiter-only mode.

Seriously, I think it sounded the best before I started mixing it. I didn’t think EQ-ing will be so difficult.

Part of the truth is that I removed Console 1 from about 50 tracks because of a VST3-Reaper-Softube plugins bug. But I could have used a dozen of other EQs.

Music might be one of the most time-consuming hobbies ever.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1196
Gear Guru
 
Jeezo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by killme View Post
absolute crap
but maybe when you make another 100 crappy tracks like this and realize what kind of **** it is and change the approach to creativity, then maybe something interesting will start
How can you be so ... to think that you can legitimly label a track in the most absolute way like this .... this clearly shows that you still didn t understood our art yet ...sorry for be like this , but i can t say differently ...

This isnt at all my style of music but

Error of harmony ? Nope
Vulgarous error of balance ? nope
Structure is not perfect but you have intro , a drop (witch i really like by the way and worth the congrats alone)
The track is rich in sonirity ... still arragemenetvand structure can be better

Listening in ipad and still coherent ...

Dude for a first track , it s a period ...

What have to be worked can be worked , i don t see something crazy to correct ...
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1197
Gear Guru
 
Jeezo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mage View Post
Unfortunately, my mix is hash too. I know.

I could not afford more time on it as it didn’t get better. My favorite mix was v39 (version 39). The one I published is v102. There were 250GB of stems (frozen-unfrozen tracks, mostly).

Now I should spend a few weeks only on learning how to EQ. Except for one or two surgical fixes HP filters, there is no EQ in the mix. (As usual, the more I tried, the worse it became.)

I mean, I know that the frequencies should not collide. Usually, it killed the sound when I tried to remove some bands.

Also, the mix got brighter and brighter over time. It’s freaking bright now. I put a bx_refinement on the master and Weiss instances on a few buses to help it. Also, I removed a 10.5kHz noise with Neutron 3 EQ in dynamic mode. That’s it.

Ozone made it even brighter and harsher. In the end, it’s Waves Abbey Road TG on the master, bx_refinement, and Weiss in limiter-only mode.

Seriously, I think it sounded the best before I started mixing it. I didn’t think EQ-ing will be so difficult.




Part of the truth is that I removed Console 1 from about 50 tracks because of a VST3-Reaper-Softube plugins bug. But I could have used a dozen of other EQs.

Music might be one of the most time-consuming hobbies ever.
Mage don t spend you time on plugin , first focus on production ... the best the production is , the shorter and easier the road to a mixed track is ... put your loney on tools that gonna inspire you and helps you be creativ ...study you fav tracks structure and arrangement ... don t think technical , think what you want to transmit as emotion and then you willl learn to translate this into techniacl decisions

I want a track with a lot of movement and stressing : automation , agressive eqs , highs , transients , structural exitation ect

I want a track smooth and lovely : balance , controlled dynamic , few movement , soft transient , not to bright ect

If you know what i mean with those exemples ... and if ya need help or advise , hit us around here alot of great people here !!
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1198
Gear Guru
My advice is to not try to mess with the sound too much. Add something take something away. Concentrate on vocals but sometimes less is more.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1199
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
Mage don t spend you time on plugin , first focus on production ... the best the production is , the shorter and easier the road to a mixed track is ... put your loney on tools that gonna inspire you and helps you be creativ ...study you fav tracks structure and arrangement ... don t think technical , think what you want to transmit as emotion and then you willl learn to translate this into techniacl decisions

I want a track with a lot of movement and stressing : automation , agressive eqs , highs , transients , structural exitation ect

I want a track smooth and lovely : balance , controlled dynamic , few movement , soft transient , not to bright ect

If you know what i mean with those exemples ... and if ya need help or advise , hit us around here alot of great people here !!
This advice is golden. Keep at it and don't be deterred. Music is like learning to talk (express yourself). You always know and feel what you want to say then comes the learning to say it part so others can hear.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #1200
Gear Guru
 
Jeezo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ardis View Post
My advice is to not try to mess with the sound too much. Add something take something away. Concentrate on vocals but sometimes less is more.
Ardis is right ... a lot of "so called "porducer stacks sound to try to "sound big" while it's the opposite .... you create emotion with few ...because th emore you stack the more you'lll have to handle ...like i say to my students , always ask yourself :

1) if this instruments is needed , ?

2) If this note is needed ans serve the tracks

Both cases if yes , what is their role ? when you answer this question then you know how to help this instruments part to achieve it !!
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