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Black Rooster Audio releases the VEQ-1P Program EQ Equalizer Plugins
Old 9th May 2018
  #91
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyfingers View Post
Fuzzmeasure.
(Be warned the phase plots do not work correctly for linear phase filters)
Nothing to be warned about here - neither of these plugins use linear phase filters.
UAD is about the only plugin provider which uses this technique and from my analysis I’m not entirely convinced the plots are as wrong as you’re claiming.

I’ve done significant research and analysis on several pultec plugins in the past few years.

To summarise the results from the graphs in my previous post:

1. The Black rooster EQ curve is closer to the hardware than the Waves.
2. The Waves has second and third order harmonics but the Black rooster only has second order (would love them to chime in and comment on this and whether they believe the original hardware only has second order - I have the hardware unit but I can’t remember But I can check later)
3. Both have similar phase responses that are akin to the original hardware.

I can also include plots from the UAD and acustica versions if anyone is interested.
Old 9th May 2018
  #92
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiccup View Post

I can also include plots from the UAD and acustica versions if anyone is interested.
I would definitely like to see that. Thanks for your work!
Old 9th May 2018
  #93
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stinkyfingers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vze26m98 View Post
Interesting. How do you set up the loop to do the measurement? Fuzzmeasure doesn’t directly support plugins, does it? Thanks!
I use soundflower to route fuzzmeasure to reaper and back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiccup View Post
Nothing to be warned about here - neither of these plugins use linear phase filters.
BRA uses a linear phase OS filter.
I’m not saying your plots are incorrect here, just that I have gotten incorrect results before when testing linear phase filters

Last edited by stinkyfingers; 9th May 2018 at 05:24 PM..
Old 9th May 2018
  #94
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bgood's Avatar
So... bottom line me...

I have ozone 8’s, ik multimedia’s, uad (the legacy one), Waves... probably a few more too actually

Does the black rooster version bring something that I don’t have? Let me add that I track through tons of outboard so if the only real benefit is added distortion or harmonics I don’t think that’s a benefit to my particular workflow

I hope so as I like giving them money...
Old 9th May 2018
  #95
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyfingers View Post
I use soundflower to route fuzzmeasure to reaper and back.



BRA uses a linear phase OS filter.
I’m not saying your plots are incorrect here, just that I have gotten incorrect results before when testing linear phase filters

How sure are you that Black Rooster uses linear phase filters?
Old 9th May 2018
  #96
Gear Nut
 

Here is the same analysis with the UAD included (in red).

You can see:
1. The frequency response between the UAD and Black Rooster is close, but the UAD extends to lower frequencies.
2. The 3rd order harmonics on the black rooster are missing, but are there in the Waves and the UAD.
Attached Thumbnails
Black Rooster Audio releases the VEQ-1P Program EQ-pultecwuadfreq.jpg   Black Rooster Audio releases the VEQ-1P Program EQ-pultecwuadharmonics.jpg  
Old 9th May 2018
  #97
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stinkyfingers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiccup View Post
How sure are you that Black Rooster uses linear phase filters?
It says that on their website/description for the plug in.

edit: from the first post of the thread...
AUTO-ADJUSTED OVERSAMPLING FOR MAXIMUM AUDIO TRANSPARENCY
Aliasing artifacts are efficiently attenuated using a low latency linear phase Dolph-Chebyshev poly-phase design.

Last edited by stinkyfingers; 11th May 2018 at 01:36 PM..
Old 9th May 2018
  #98
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djanthonyw's Avatar
 

I never really understood what the big deal was about Pultec EQs, but I do now.

This EQ sounds awesome. Definitely analog-like, as do the other BR offerings. VPRE-73 is my favorite virtual preamp. I really hope an 1176 is around the corner from these guys!
Old 9th May 2018
  #99
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vze26m98's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyfingers View Post
I use soundflower to route fuzzmeasure to reaper and back.
Works a treat, thanks for the tip! Using Loopback which I bought at a time when Soundflower wasn’t being shown much love.
Old 9th May 2018
  #100
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vze26m98's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiccup View Post
The frequency response between the UAD and Black Rooster is close, but the UAD extends to lower frequencies.
The curves of the BRA and the Ignite versions are quite close, and the Waves is similar to PSP’s NobleQ. Made me wonder whether there were differences in Pultec hardware.
Old 9th May 2018
  #101
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dickiefunk's Avatar
I already have the IK Pultec EQP-1A and Ignite Amps PTEq-xand am wondering if the Black Rooster VEQ-1p is worth buying?
Old 9th May 2018
  #102
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The Warmth's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgood View Post
So... bottom line me...

I have ozone 8’s, ik multimedia’s, uad (the legacy one), Waves... probably a few more too actually

Does the black rooster version bring something that I don’t have? Let me add that I track through tons of outboard so if the only real benefit is added distortion or harmonics I don’t think that’s a benefit to my particular workflow

I hope so as I like giving them money...
Its way more open and realaxed in the mids than the Waves. I tried comparing the two and its hard to get the settings the same because they sound quite different. There's more low end in the Rooster one so I boosted less, etc. I thought it was so much better. Stereo imaging seems nicer. Why don't you demo it?
Old 9th May 2018
  #103
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galaydees's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vze26m98 View Post
The curves of the BRA and the Ignite versions are quite close, and the Waves is similar to PSP’s NobleQ. Made me wonder whether there were differences in Pultec hardware.
Exactly
Old 9th May 2018
  #104
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vze26m98's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dickiefunk View Post
I already have the IK Pultec EQP-1A and Ignite Amps PTEq-xand am wondering if the Black Rooster VEQ-1p is worth buying?
In my experience, the Ignite Pultec doesn’t like to be pushed.
Old 9th May 2018
  #105
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Macaroni's Avatar
 

Last night I compared the 'Box tone' (no EQ) of this EQ to the UAD Pultec version and I much preferred the UAD version. It was more open and pleasing. YMMV.
Old 9th May 2018
  #106
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djanthonyw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dickiefunk View Post
I already have the IK Pultec EQP-1A and Ignite Amps PTEq-xand am wondering if the Black Rooster VEQ-1p is worth buying?
I like a lot of the IK stuff, but their Pultec did nothing for me. It was one of their earlier modeled plugins, so that's probably why. I like their later stuff more. As for Ignite Amps, can't say I was impressed with any of their products. Black Rooster is on a completely different level.
Old 9th May 2018
  #107
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macaroni View Post
Last night I compared the 'Box tone' (no EQ) of this EQ to the UAD Pultec version and I much preferred the UAD version. It was more open and pleasing. YMMV.
There's probably 2 reasons for that:

1. The UAD box tone is quite a bit louder, and most people prefer louder things.
2. The black rooster has a roll-off on the bottom end which the hardware and UAD doesn't.

See the attached graph of the 2 boxtones vs the reference signal.
Attached Thumbnails
Black Rooster Audio releases the VEQ-1P Program EQ-boxtonepultecfreq2.jpg  
Old 10th May 2018
  #108
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Oni.'s Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiccup View Post
There's probably 2 reasons for that:

1. The UAD box tone is quite a bit louder, and most people prefer louder things.
2. The black rooster has a roll-off on the bottom end which the hardware and UAD doesn't.

See the attached graph of the 2 boxtones vs the reference signal.
Wow, BRA's "flat" frequency response looks really f'ed up at higher frequencies.
Old 10th May 2018
  #109
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vze26m98's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oni. View Post
Wow, BRA's "flat" frequency response looks really f'ed up at higher frequencies.
Fletcher-Munson
Old 10th May 2018
  #110
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stinkyfingers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oni. View Post
Wow, BRA's "flat" frequency response looks really f'ed up at higher frequencies.
How so ? Looks normal to me...

edit: see pic here > https://i.imgur.com/e1Dhb4d.png

Last edited by stinkyfingers; 10th May 2018 at 09:03 PM..
Old 10th May 2018
  #111
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stinkyfingers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hiccup View Post
2. The 3rd order harmonics on the black rooster are missing, but are there in the Waves and the UAD.
you're not hitting it hard enough...

see pic > https://i.imgur.com/OshhN8U.png

(note: no aliasing)
Old 10th May 2018
  #112
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyfingers View Post
you're not hitting it hard enough...

see pic > https://i.imgur.com/OshhN8U.png

(note: no aliasing)
That isn’t a good way of measuring harmonic content.
You want to see it’s harmonic content under normal levels to see if the analog components have been correctly modelled not when you’re distorting the box.
Old 10th May 2018
  #113
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Lesha's Avatar
Old 11th May 2018
  #114
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stinkyfingers's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyfingers View Post
Fuzzmeasure.
(Be warned the phase plots do not work correctly for linear phase filters)
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiccup View Post
Nothing to be warned about here - neither of these plugins use linear phase filters.
UAD is about the only plugin provider which uses this technique and from my analysis I’m not entirely convinced the plots are as wrong as you’re claiming.
not to get off topic, but see here for an example > https://i.imgur.com/IO5ESFF.png

i routed fuzzmeasure to reaper and back using soundflower.
the phase plot should be a flat line, but it shows a phase shift for this linear phase filter. i would say that is an incorrect phase plot.
i also get the same results when i export fuzzmeasure's sweep file, process it in reaper, and import back into fuzzmeasure.
Old 11th May 2018
  #115
Gear Maniac
 
fuseaudiolabs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyfingers View Post
not to get off topic, but see here for an example > https://i.imgur.com/IO5ESFF.png

i routed fuzzmeasure to reaper and back using soundflower.
the phase plot should be a flat line, but it shows a phase shift for this linear phase filter. i would say that is an incorrect phase plot.
i also get the same results when i export fuzzmeasure's sweep file, process it in reaper, and import back into fuzzmeasure.
Hi stinkyfingers,

Thanks for sharing your measurements.

Linear phase filters exhibit a straight line as their phase response. The slope corresponds to the system's - in this case constant - group delay. A flat line would equal a zero phase filter = no group delay at all.
However, the plot you're watching is in the semi-logarithmic domain so the straight line is transformed into an exponential function with the usual wrap around at +/-180 deg, meaning the plot is correct.

Inspecting the impulse response, you can see that it's symmetric around its peak which is what the linear phase property corresponds to in the time domain (well, for real valued LTI systems to be precise).

Hope this helps.

Best,
Ray
Old 12th May 2018
  #116
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stinkyfingers's Avatar
 

@fuseaudiolabs thanks for the response, I understand what you are saying, but I though that latency compensation made linear phase filters zero phase ?
because w/plots from vst analyzer and plug-in doctor, the phase response for a linear phase filter is a flat line at zero deg.
I don’t know/understand the methods used for analysis/deriving the plots, so it must be a difference there.
I guess I thought the phase plots were incorrect because they were correct
Old 12th May 2018
  #117
Gear Maniac
 
fuseaudiolabs's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyfingers View Post
@fuseaudiolabs thanks for the response, I understand what you are saying, but I though that latency compensation made linear phase filters zero phase ?
because w/plots from vst analyzer and plug-in doctor, the phase response for a linear phase filter is a flat line at zero deg.
I don’t know/understand the methods used for analysis/deriving the plots, so it must be a difference there.
I guess I thought the phase plots were incorrect because they were correct
Hi stinkyfingers,

Latency compensation in REAPER or other DAWs is there to make sure signals from busses with different latencies are summed in phase which works by delaying the signals that have lower latencies. Let me give a simple example: Consider Tracks A, B and C being fed into the master. A has 0 samples latency, B has and insert with 3 samples and C comes with 32 samples. The latency compensation engine will take care of delaying signal A by 32 samples and B by 29 samples so they are all summed in phase.
Anything else would require you to look into the future (which probably works in some cases, e.g. replaying pre-recorded material, but not in real world, causal systems).
I don't know about the implementation details of plugin doctor/plugin analyzer but I assume they compensate for the latency reported by a plugin in their phase plot by means of calculus (subtract a straight line from the phase response or a constant from the group delay plot) for better "readability"?

Best,
Ray
Old 12th May 2018
  #118
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ROCKER STUDIOS's Avatar
I have yet to find a better pultec(plugin) then purple how does this hold up in comparison thanks
Old 12th May 2018
  #119
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Extremely well in my opinion. It's completely source dependent which one I prefer and due to Purple being one of the pre-Ruby aqua plugins, it has some problems with the low frequency delay/softness thing that some of us has been reporting for years. So yeah.. if you want to EQ a kick or bass or anything with a bit of important energy below 200Hz I wouldn't reach for purple.

This is by far the best algorithmic pultec plugin in my opinion.
Old 12th May 2018
  #120
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The Warmth's Avatar
 

On the mix buss: [email protected] 60HZ and same at 12kHz with the bandwidth at 4. Turn it on and off and listen to your mixes and how the upper mid range nastiness smooths out and relaxes with the plug engaged. Yes its essentially a smiley EQ but I haven't heard other native plugs do it so effortlessly. It's truly beautiful and mixing into this makes everything come together a lot quicker. IMHO, Waves and NobleQ did not sound this nice. This was a very pleasant surprise and is already invaluable to me. Happy mixing
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