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Kazrog releases KClip 3 Dynamics Plugins
Old 16th May 2018
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_O View Post
My question is based on the humble attitude, my eagernes to learn more.
I own the KClip2 Pro as well, I use it only occasianally, because its very CPU-hogg.

My usual choises are either the Ozone 8 adv. maxmizer (IRC III or IV/modern), or the Fabfilter Pro-L2.

I have to admit, that in both of those limiter/maximizers, I useally run the threshold/input to the ceiling, i.e. ceiling in clipping time to time.

Therefore I´m most interested in the developers opinion here: according to him, I have used my limiters/maxmizers in the wrong way all the time.
Right gotcha... I am also looking fwd to Kazrog jumping in.
Old 16th May 2018
  #92
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Does anyone notice that sound changes in a more "midrangy" one switching in multiband mode, with the same wideband algorithms (i.e. CRISPY)?
Old 16th May 2018
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_O View Post
How do you know its up to the ceiling, if you don't get a hit to it?
It's simple:
  1. Turn off the Ceiling
  2. If you're going above 0.0 dB on your master meter, turn down the Out Gain in KClip until that's no longer happening.
  3. Turn the Ceiling back on.
  4. Be Happy.



To clarify - it's not the end of the world if you clip the ceiling here and there by small amounts with the occasional transient spike (after all, it's there for a reason.) I mainly want to make sure that people aren't leaning hard into the ceiling as a crutch, because then you'll definitely get some aliasing.
Old 16th May 2018
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddysgroove View Post
Does anyone notice that sound changes in a more "midrangy" one switching in multiband mode, with the same wideband algorithms (i.e. CRISPY)?
It's certainly possible, depending on your levels, that different algorithms will react to program material differently in multiband mode than they do in single band mode. This is the nature of nonlinear effects. Adjust accordingly.
Old 16th May 2018
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrog View Post
It's certainly possible, depending on your levels, that different algorithms will react to program material differently in multiband mode than they do in single band mode. Adjust accordingly.
I mean without ANY level/gain changing in the plug, and about - 15 dbfs before the plug itself. Maybe are the crossovers changing the sound in multiband mode?
Old 16th May 2018
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddysgroove View Post
I mean without ANY level/gain changing in the plug, and about - 15 dbfs before the plug itself. Maybe are the crossovers changing the sound in multiband mode?
No, the crossovers are extremely flat and well optimized. Unless you're in Smooth mode with Soften set to 0%, you're going to hear differences even at -15dBFS between the different algorithms in multiband mode vs. single band mode.

In multiband mode, KClip 3 is 4 instances of KClip running in parallel, summed together at the end of processing. This can and will create differences in how the algorithms react, even at very low levels. It's the nature of nonlinear processing, whether digital or analog.
Old 16th May 2018
  #97
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Ok, but this should not happen unless you're clipping the signal and causing the nonlinearity effects you're talking about. If i have the plug driven by a decent low signal (-15 dbfs) with i. e. crispy algorithm, wideband mode, everything set properly for not driving the plug (threshold, quality 1, dry/wet, mid/side, ceiling) and then i switch to multiband with same crisp algorithm on all bands, no gain everywhere and same settings than wideband.. It should sound the same, period. Unless the crossover filters are changing the sound, which i definitely suspect. Please investigate because this is not the way it should work in multiband mode.
Old 16th May 2018
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddysgroove View Post
Ok, but this should not happen unless you're clipping the signal and causing the nonlinearity effects you're talking about. If i have the plug driven by a decent low signal (-15 dbfs) with i. e. crispy algorithm, wideband mode, everything set properly for not driving the plug (threshold, quality 1, dry/wet, mid/side, ceiling) and then i switch to multiband with same crisp algorithm on all bands, no gain everywhere and same settings than wideband.. It should sound the same, period. Unless the crossover filters are changing the sound, which i definitely suspect. Please investigate because this is not the way it should work in multiband mode.
It's because of the soft clipping curves - they affect the signal even before clipping occurs. These will react to different frequencies differently, hence they sound different in multiband mode, because the harmonics are being generated from different fundamentals in parallel.

I know this is counter-intuitive, but it's how this kind of processing works.
Old 17th May 2018
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrog View Post
It's simple:
  1. Turn off the Ceiling
  2. If you're going above 0.0 dB on your master meter, turn down the Out Gain in KClip until that's no longer happening.
  3. Turn the Ceiling back on.
  4. Be Happy.



To clarify - it's not the end of the world if you clip the ceiling here and there by small amounts with the occasional transient spike (after all, it's there for a reason.) I mainly want to make sure that people aren't leaning hard into the ceiling as a crutch, because then you'll definitely get some aliasing.
Does this concern maximizers in generally, or is this workflow your product-specific? In your flow chart, KClip has two clippers, the last one is the "ceiling clipper". Does this make your product special in that sense?

Last edited by Harry_O; 17th May 2018 at 11:56 AM..
Old 17th May 2018
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_O View Post
Does this concern maximizer in generally, or is this workflow your product-specific? In your flow chart, KClip has to clippers, the last one is the "ceiling clipper". Does this make your product special?
I know that VladG and the updated TDR Limiter 6 implements the same idea, as does Flux Alchemist.
Old 17th May 2018
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry_O View Post
Does this concern maximizers in generally, or is this workflow your product-specific? In your flow chart, KClip has two clippers, the last one is the "ceiling clipper". Does this make your product special in that sense?
No. As I mention in the video, almost every other clipper on the market does the same thing, whether or not they tell you about it. The crazy thing to me is not telling users about this, and not giving them a choice - if you push into those clippers, there's almost no point in using oversampling when you've got that many overages going into hard clipping at the native sample rate.

Of course, by providing that knowledge and that choice, it actually requires people to learn something, which is oftentimes too much to ask.

Last edited by Kazrog; 17th May 2018 at 06:00 PM..
Old 17th May 2018
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrog View Post
No. As I mention in the video, almost every other clipper on the market does the same thing, whether or not they tell you about it. The crazy thing to me is not telling users about this, and not giving them a choice - if you push into those clippers, there's almost no point in using oversampling when you've got that many overages going into hard clipping at the native sample rate.

Of course, by providing that knowledge and that choice, it actually requires people to learn something, which is oftentimes too much to ask.
Good to know - I've always said, every day someone shows you are wrong, is a good day. Because you have learned something new...
Old 11th June 2018
  #103
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Hi @Kazrog is the "tape" algo the same as v.2?
Old 11th June 2018
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blast9 View Post
Hi @Kazrog is the "tape" algo the same as v.2?
It is the same algorithm, but the implementation has been changed slightly to provide more precise low end response. Any sonic difference should be minimal.
Old 6th July 2018
  #105
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I have the same issue that others have posted before me, anything switched to multiband mode causes digital artifacts that sound like a buffer error. Switching the quality isn't the issue, even on 1 it creates the artifacts. My buffers are at 256 samples and I have a fast 16 thread i7 6900K with 64GB Ram. This computer doesn't break a sweat on any project. Running Cubase Pro 9.5.3 & Windows 10. I'm wondering what remedy you have for this issue, I have also opened up a ticket on the Kazrog site.
Old 8th July 2018
  #106
MrM
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Multiband Issue

Another user experiencing the Multiband Issue. When I contacted Kazrog two days ago, they told me:

"This issue randomly affects some Logic Pro users. Unfortunately, we've been unable to recreate it here, so no timeline for a fix has been established."

However, according to several accounts in this thread, this is an issue that seems to affect Mac and PC users across multiple DAWs.

Interestingly I managed to make KC3 work in MB mode, on the same computer, but only inside Maschine 2 standalone. It continued to manifest the issue in Logic PRO X 10.3.3 and Komplete Kontrol standalone. KCP2 continues to work smoothly on the same machine across all my DAWs.

This leads me to conclude that this is a KC3 problem.

Besides that, I'm also having difficulty switching between clipping modes. The selectors are stagnant and sometimes switch back after you select another mode from the drop down menu.

I hope Kazrog finds a fix for these issues soon. It will be a shame to leave it like this and totally kill the value of this -otherwise- powerful tool, for people like me.

My Specs for this system:

27" iMac 17,1 with a 4.0 GHz Core i7 (I7-6700K) and 64GB of RAM
MacOS El Capitan 10.11.6
Logic Pro X 10.3.3
Old 9th July 2018
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by profvonsok View Post
My MBP exceeds the minimum requirements posted of the KClip3 page, is an i7 and runs every other plug fine.
I’m sorry you’re having difficulties, but you have to keep in mind how much pressure Apple puts on developers. They really want you to leave the past behind. I have two audio applications that have requirements similar to KClip3, but crash under certain circumstances in El Capitan, but not in High Sierra. The developers of those apps are sympathetic, but the trouble really sits with Apple and their inability to provide error-free backwards compatibility in the current release of their dev tools.
Old 9th July 2018
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by profvonsok View Post
The problem I'm having is the same that others are having on newer machines/OS'es.
So it sounds like you’re saying that Kazrog is addressing the issue on newer Apple hardware, but isn’t in a position to set up an additional test rig based on an older MBP? Seems pretty defensible to me considering he’s a one-person shop.
Old 9th July 2018
  #109
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So you're a "potential customer"?

From my perspective as one who suffers from the multiband bug, the issue is obviously not one that Kazrog has a lot of control over, and this can't be a very "up" moment for him. I'd think that he's deserving of our support in this case. I guess the memory of Kazrog having to take his family and flee his home to avoid the fires this winter has fast faded from collective memory.

I intuit he'll hit one out of the park in the next year, and I'll be happy to reflect on his success.
Old 9th July 2018
  #110
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I understand the frustration surrounding multiband mode at this time. The fact is, for the vast majority of users, it is working flawlessly. I am investigating this to the best of my ability. A lot on my plate at the moment.

I'm sorry if I've let any of you down. A bug fix update (3.0.3) is in the works as we speak, and I want to address as many things as possible as soon as possible.

Thanks for your patience and understanding!

Last edited by Kazrog; 9th July 2018 at 10:24 PM..
Old 9th July 2018
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vze26m98 View Post
...the trouble really sits with Apple and their inability to provide error-free backwards compatibility in the current release of their dev tools.
You said it for me. The Mac platform has gone from being this beautiful, simple, relatively trouble free environment to a toxic hellstew of seemingly random incompatibility, all in the span of a few years. Apple is the iPhone company, and it doesn't seem the Mac gets the kind of priority it once had. I'm far from the first person to say it or notice it at this point.

Apple breaks backward compatibility far more often than they used to, and many of these issues are undocumented, because you should keep automatic updates on according to them. You can tell by the lack of new Mac Pros that they don't really understand or care about the pro market anymore, or how forced OS upgrades and mission-critical environments don't mix.

It seems, in my experience, that the fastest path to major issues on a Mac recording setup is a mixture of older macOS version + latest/newer DAW version. That's generally the convergence point of failures. Also, the venerable "cheese grater" Mac Pros have fallen far behind in terms of performance - even when maximized with after market upgrades. They're ancient machines at this point. Single core speed is the most important metric, and it's appallingly bad by today's standards for those Macs.

Despite all of this, my commitment to the Mac platform and my users on the platform remains unchanged. Almost all of my best friends and allies run Mac based DAWs. I'll keep at this...
Old 10th July 2018
  #112
MrM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrog View Post
I understand the frustration surrounding multiband mode at this time. The fact is, for the vast majority of users, it is working flawlessly. I am investigating this to the best of my ability. A lot on my plate at the moment.

I'm sorry if I've let any of you down. A bug fix update (3.0.3) is in the works as we speak, and I want to address as many things as possible as soon as possible.

Thanks for your patience and understanding!
I'm relieved to read this, and I sincerely appreciate your situation. As a "reformed" iOS game Designer/Publisher, I know how nasty it is to survive within the Apple ecosystem. You have my understanding and full support. If there is anything I can do to help resolve this from my end, I will not hesitate.

One thing about KClip3 and that Multiband Mode: When it works, it is amazing!

Wishing you all the best,

-MRM
Old 31st July 2018
  #113
Firstly, this is a wonderful plugin. I have a question in regards to the ceiling. Is it possible to lower the ceiling too much, causing a less-than-desirable output? In other words, if I'm lowering the ceiling so that I don't clip this ceiling, can I over do it? I should mention that I am applying a final limiter after the use of this plugin, so my final output true peaks value is being set buy another tool.

I have a comment, in regards to something that I have noticed. Whenever I use this plug-in and render audio from Ableton Live, it takes a while to render; and even if I'm rendering at the depth and Sample rate at my project and audio is already at... Ableton goes to a stage that says analyzing master, and then to a stage that says converting master. This does not happen when I use other plugins. So, I am kind of wondering whether this plugin forces audio to be processed at a particular sampling rate, or what exactly is going on there. Is this due to the oversampling?

Also, does this plug-in apply a dither automatically?

I am guessing that an update will be coming soon, with the option of opening the settings tab... and that this will address my issues.
Old 31st July 2018
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theMuzzl3 View Post
Firstly, this is a wonderful plugin. I have a question in regards to the ceiling. Is it possible to lower the ceiling too much, causing a less-than-desirable output? In other words, if I'm lowering the ceiling so that I don't clip this ceiling, can I over do it? I should mention that I am applying a final limiter after the use of this plugin, so my final output true peaks value is being set buy another tool.
Lowering the ceiling adjusts the level post-ceiling, so you need to be careful you're not going over 0dBFS when you toggle the ceiling off. Beyond that, all you're doing is just setting the final output level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theMuzzl3 View Post
I have a comment, in regards to something that I have noticed. Whenever I use this plug-in and render audio from Ableton Live, it takes a while to render; and even if I'm rendering at the depth and Sample rate at my project and audio is already at... Ableton goes to a stage that says analyzing master, and then to a stage that says converting master. This does not happen when I use other plugins. So, I am kind of wondering whether this plugin forces audio to be processed at a particular sampling rate, or what exactly is going on there. Is this due to the oversampling?
Yes. KClip 3 always renders at maximum oversampling quality during bounce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theMuzzl3 View Post
Also, does this plug-in apply a dither automatically?
No, although I also make a dithering plugin you can use next in the chain (masterDither.) I may add it into KClip 3 itself, though, as that's been a popular request.
Old 1st August 2018
  #115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrog View Post
No, although I also make a dithering plugin you can use next in the chain (masterDither.) I may add it into KClip 3 itself, though, as that's been a popular request.
Thanks for the quick answers.

Adding he masterDither to KClip 3 is an excellent idea!

I haven't done enough research on masterDither, but I was considering it at one point. I have been using Ozone's MBIT+ dither module, and it woks great. I am wondering how it compares to masterDither, and which is essentially better.
However, I recently discovered airwindows and I am of the opinion that his NotJustAnotherDither is taking dithering to an entirely different level. I would be surprised if any other dither on the market can compare. I will take a look at masterDither, and if there is a good explanation about what goes on under the hood with it then I will consider it.

Thank you for the 14 day free trials on your plugins, as well.
Old 2nd August 2018
  #116
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masterDither has a variety of algorithms on tap, ranging from traditional to very aggressive noise shaping beyond anything else I've tested. I've not tested the Airwindows dither, though.
Old 17th August 2018
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrog View Post
Going to keep experimenting until I can recreate this. So far, it's working fine for me. Very frustrating.
Curious, how many tracks and additional plugs from other manufacturers are in your project when your trying to recreate this Multiband crackle issue? Thanks Shane
Old 17th August 2018
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenroom View Post
Curious, how many tracks and additional plugs from other manufacturers are in your project when your trying to recreate this Multiband crackle issue? Thanks Shane
For me, It happens with a single track, single media file and KClip3.
Old 3rd October 2018
  #119
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I tryed demo today.
Kclip3 have nice sounds.and easy to use.cool!
but tape mode is very expensive.
If I set tape mode 4band,CPU use about 40%.
Although it is not reproducible,sometimes CPU use over 100%.

Is it a bug that a tape mode is heavy?
Or is it specifications?

My PC
windows10 64
i5 4570
RAM 12GB
Studio one 3.5
Old 12th October 2018
  #120
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if anyone missed it, there is a 3.10 update since 2 days ago
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