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Crazy News: Neumann U67 reissue at Namm 2018 Condenser Microphones
Old 1st March 2018
  #691
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
I'm curious too. I've never heard anyone say that pop filters color the sound. I was going to get one. Now I'm second guessing.
I read engineers saying that all the time. But it’s not an expensive thing to have around and if you’re recording different singers, operating a studio etc (as opposed to just one singer) you’ll probably need it on at least some of them. Plus it’ll keep your expensive mic from getting lots of people’s spit on it too!
Old 1st March 2018
  #692
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Piedpiper's Avatar
Positioning it at eye level pointed down at the mouth from above can help with pops as well as breathing sounds. I usually use a Stedman type screen as well and angle that a bit to deflect pops more than when head on.
Old 1st March 2018
  #693
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zasterz View Post
I read engineers saying that all the time. But it’s not an expensive thing to have around and if you’re recording different singers, operating a studio etc (as opposed to just one singer) you’ll probably need it on at least some of them. Plus it’ll keep your expensive mic from getting lots of people’s spit on it too!
Hmmph. Go figure... I've always worked without one, being very careful not to spit in the mic, by keeping a good distance from it mostly. And I always thought "why not just get one, they don't cost you anything(soundwise) and you can get right on the mic and not worry about p-popping it."
Old 1st March 2018
  #694
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
Hmmph. Go figure... I've always worked without one, being very careful not to spit in the mic, by keeping a good distance from it mostly. And I always thought "why not just get one, they don't cost you anything(soundwise) and you can get right on the mic and not worry about p-popping it."
I record myself without one too because I know myself, my technique and it’s my mic. I can get very close with minimal pops and I’m alright with editing out the occasional unwanted pop on my own tracks. But if I ran a studio with strangers coming in every day, with who-knows-what technical shortcomings, I’d definitely keep one around, and probably set up as a default until I trust the singer to not muck up my mic. And that goes double if said mic was the $7000 subject of this thread!
Old 1st March 2018
  #695
500 series nutjob
 
pan60's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
FWIW: the Sony C-37a was killing the U-47 in sales at the time.
: )
Old 1st March 2018
  #696
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

A U-67 is amazingly immune to pops and sibilance.
Old 1st March 2018
  #697
Gear Maniac
 

Gah! The suspense is killing me! Will my preorder really ship on Tuesday as stated on the Musican’s Friend website?
Old 1st March 2018
  #698
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by u87allen View Post
I'm curious too. I've never heard anyone say that pop filters color the sound. I was going to get one. Now I'm second guessing.
Yes, anything you put in front of a mic will have an influence. Soft materials will absorb HF, hard materials will reflect HF and create a pressure zone, there's diffraction at play with some designs, some will resonate and add a small HF peak, etc. The influence may be subtle enough that you can ignore it. But to some even a small, subtle colouration is unacceptable. I've had so many reports that tend to contradict each other that I can't recommend one popfilter at this point. Even those I really like (like the original Stedman models) were criticized by engineers I know and respect. In the end it's a matter of choice and taste. To me the advantage of a popfilter vastly outweighs its slight impact on the sound reaching the mic. Sometimes you just have to use a popfilter... vocals at close distance on ribbons comes to mind.
Old 1st March 2018
  #699
Lives for gear
 
mics's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
A U-67 is amazingly immune to pops and sibilance.
Hi Bob.

The U67 And M 49 have basically a Steadman filter built-in what I mean by that is that the angle of the grill forces the plosive up And away from the Capsule and that creates a flatter less poppy type sound whereas a round grill as in the U47 it works kind of like a radiotelescope where actually amplifies the pop By focusing the pop back toward the Capsule.

As for most things in life there are always positive and negatives. The positive with a flat angled grill face is that you end up with less plosive but the negative is that the proximity affect his greatly reduced. Many artists love a Proximity affect Especially if you know the microphone as it allows them to use the microphone as an instrument creating tonal varieties depending on distance.

The U 47 having its round grill is famous for its proximity effect. The negative however is of course the popping is amplified.

I hope this was helpful cheers.
Old 1st March 2018
  #700
Lives for gear
 
KevWind's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mics View Post
Hi Bob.

The U67 And M 49 have basically a Steadman filter built-in what I mean by that is that the angle of the grill forces the plosive up And away from the Capsule and that creates a flatter less poppy type sound whereas a round grill as in the U47 it works kind of like a radiotelescope where actually amplifies the pop By focusing the pop back toward the Capsule.

As for most things in life there are always positive and negatives. The positive with a flat angled grill face is that you end up with less plosive but the negative is that the proximity affect his greatly reduced. Many artists love a Proximity affect Especially if you know the microphone as it allows them to use the microphone as an instrument creating tonal varieties depending on distance.

The U 47 having its round grill is famous for its proximity effect. The negative however is of course the popping is amplified.

I hope this was helpful cheers.
Interesting, so that brings up another question. Since some (myself included)
Position the mic upside down and slightly above the singers mouth.
Ostensibly to cause the singer to angle the head up slightly and open up the angle of the throat. Would you think then that might be a factor to be somewhat working against that grill design trajectory ?
Old 1st March 2018
  #701
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

I don't think it's that simple. An 87 pops much more easily than a 67.
Old 1st March 2018
  #702
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Interesting, so that brings up another question. Since some (myself included)
Position the mic upside down and slightly above the singers mouth.
Ostensibly to cause the singer to angle the head up slightly and open up the angle of the throat. Would you think then that might be a factor to be somewhat working against that grill design trajectory ?
As a voice instructor let me say: you do not want this posture. The line from the spine to the back of the head should be straight. If anything the head should be ever so slightly angled downward, the chin tucked under (slightly). Anything that bends the neck backward like that will impede the pathway. You’re not “opening” the throat, you’re putting a bend in it! Hanging the mic is criticized by many for this reason, but I believe it can be done as long as the capsule placement isn’t too high. (Or if the singer doesn’t change their posture to aim at the higher capsule, I guess.)

3 Ways to Develop the Proper Posture for Singing - wikiHow
Old 1st March 2018
  #703
Lives for gear
 
KevWind's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zasterz View Post
As a voice instructor let me say: you do not want this posture. The line from the spine to the back of the head should be straight. If anything the head should be ever so slightly angled downward, the chin tucked under (slightly). Anything that bends the neck backward like that will impede the pathway. You’re not “opening” the throat, you’re putting a bend in it! Hanging the mic is criticized by many for this reason, but I believe it can be done as long as the capsule placement isn’t too high. (Or if the singer doesn’t change their posture to aim at the higher capsule, I guess.)

3 Ways to Develop the Proper Posture for Singing - wikiHow
Hummm, another interesting post something to perhaps rethink, thanks
Old 1st March 2018
  #704
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zasterz View Post
As a voice instructor let me say: you do not want this posture.
Absolutely! The singer would be looking down at a music stand in the traditional use of that position.
Old 1st March 2018
  #705
Lives for gear
 
Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zasterz View Post
As a voice instructor let me say: you do not want this posture. The line from the spine to the back of the head should be straight. If anything the head should be ever so slightly angled downward, the chin tucked under (slightly). Anything that bends the neck backward like that will impede the pathway. You’re not “opening” the throat, you’re putting a bend in it! Hanging the mic is criticized by many for this reason, but I believe it can be done as long as the capsule placement isn’t too high. (Or if the singer doesn’t change their posture to aim at the higher capsule, I guess.)

3 Ways to Develop the Proper Posture for Singing - wikiHow
I can confirm that as well. When I suggested placing the mic above the mouth pointed down, it was not to get the singer to look up at all. To the contrary, as has already been pointed out, looking up at the mic would defeat the purpose in positioning it there.

On a different but related note, I was just reading an interview about the Chandler REDD mic where they positioned the mic over 3 feet away from the singer. Everyone was shocked at how intimate the mic sounded even at this distance. Not that every mic would sound like that, but just as a matter of perspective about assuming singers need to be close miced or that mics need to be tested at very close range.
Old 1st March 2018
  #706
Gear Head
Hi all, my U67 reissue arrived today in the sub-zero temperatures of London, and here is a little taste. U67 reissue/Brauner VMX/AKG C414 B-ULS.
All mics went into a Universal Audio 4110 to a Fireface UFX and into Logic, all non tube-mic cabling is mogami. It's the stock tube, though I have a couple of Tele's to try out.
Disclaimer: You have to listen to me singing Auld Lang Syne. The clean setting on the pre doesnt suit any of the mics really but its a leveler. Gain was matched in logic not on the pre.
For what its worth: I reluctantly sold my vintage U67 in November unaware of this re-issue, they sound similar in my opinion though so far I'd say the reissue is just a touch less 3D - I'm thinking this may change with a good NOS European tube as the old one had. I don't care for the connectors on the reissue (though they are fairly smooth) vs the vintage mic, the cable is really thin by comparison too. All the best, D
Auld Lang Mic - Test Darren Francis by Darren Francis | Free Listening on SoundCloud

Last edited by Darren_F; 1st March 2018 at 09:53 PM.. Reason: Spelling and I left a bit out.
Old 1st March 2018
  #707
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
I can confirm that as well. When I suggested placing the mic above the mouth pointed down, it was not to get the singer to look up at all. To the contrary, as has already been pointed out, looking up at the mic would defeat the purpose in positioning it there.
Exactly. But of course the problem you will have with having the mic in a place where the mouth is not meant to aim is that many singers will have mostly live mic-use experience and will intuitively aim their voice (airflow) at the mic. If you can get them to stay "off-axis" then you'll reduce those problems stemming from bursts of air hitting the capsule, such as plosives. What you're really trying to do is record the "hummers", the facial resonators and sinus cavities. The main problem singers face in recording is that these resonators are much more difficult to feel than the large chest resonator and without a sympathetic room, especially when using isolating headphones, it's really easy to get disorientated and lose voice-placement (focus). The voice unfortunately doesn't work like a guitar or horn where "if I press this key or hold down this string at this fret I will get the sound I expect". All kinds of calculations have to be made as to what the singing feels like internally, given the incomplete information available through the ears, to guide the production of tone. So with cans on, a singer (especially one without much recording experience) who can't feel themself resonating like they would in their favorite practice room is likely to compensate by moving closer to the mic because now in their headphones they can hear themselves more. But then this is a different tone altogether than they would normally get, likely quieter and more breathy, lacking resonance. Always the solution is to focus on the body ("humming" vibration) sensations more and less on the information coming to the ears, but that takes practice and the pressure of performing also tends to throw this capacity for mindfulness right out the window.

---

BTW here are some hacks if you're in a situation where you are noticing "diminishing returns" when tracking a vocalist (or yourself):

Take the one headphone off so the person also hears themself in the room. If you are noticing late timing especially that's a clue that they're using their ears too much to listen to the recorded sound (which has already happened, in a sense, so it's too late!)

Turn down the voice in the headphones (or sometimes turn it up: experiment.)

Use reverb to blur the voice a bit (in the monitor only) so the direct sound of it is less literal, promoting imagination and letting go of the details.

Instruct them to try a take focusing only on rhythm, timing, and not the (perceived) quality of the voice. You'd be surprised how often this suddenly makes missed notes no problem! You can help bring this about by adjusting the mix in favor of rhythmic elements to stimulate a rhythmic response. Actually responding to rhythm as opposed to the negative feedback-loop of the already-recorded voice is one of the main reasons why people notice that first takes are often better– the singer hasn't had enough time to get sucked in to the sound of their own voice as they tend to do once they get used to everything going on in the track.

Listening to yourself singing is like trying to watch yourself in a mirror while throwing a dart at a dartboard or doing a javelin jump. You're no longer in the moment, at the point of action, but evaluating a performance at the same precise moment you're supposed to be trying to execute it. Watching it changes it.
Old 1st March 2018
  #708
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_F View Post
Hi all, my U67 reissue arrived today in the sub-zero temperatures of London, and here is a little taste. U67 reissue/Brauner VMX/AKG C414 B-ULS.
All mics went into a Universal Audio 4110 to a Fireface UFX and into Logic, all non tube-mic cabling is mogami. It's the stock tube, though I have a couple of Tele's to try out.
Disclaimer: You have to listen to me singing Auld Lang Syne. The clean setting on the pre doesnt suit any of the mics really but its a leveler. Gain was matched in logic not on the pre.
For what its worth: I reluctantly sold my vintage U67 in November unaware of this re-issue, they sound similar in my opinion though so far I'd say the reissue is just a touch less 3D - I'm thinking this may change with a good NOS European tube as the old one had. I don't care for the connectors on the reissue (though they are fairly smooth) vs the vintage mic, the cable is really thin by comparison too. All the best, D
Auld Lang Mic - Test Darren Francis by Darren Francis | Free Listening on SoundCloud
Thanks for posting Darren
Sounds like the 67 vibe.
Look forward to comparing one to Vintage and Bock.
I’d be curious about your findings w the tele tube.
The brauner was never my jam.
Old 1st March 2018
  #709
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundBadge View Post
Thanks for posting Darren
Sounds like the 67 vibe.
Look forward to comparing one to Vintage and Bock.
I’d be curious about your findings w the tele tube.
The brauner was never my jam.
You're welcome, I'll try a couple of Valvos and Mullards and see what sticks. I had good luck with NOS Teslas in my old mic too.
The new mic sounds less 'characterful', than my old one, like the the frequency response is smoother, if a new tube will add a bit more dimension then I see this as no bad thing, my vintage mic had lots of 1k.
When you lift the EQ on the top of the reissue they are very similar though, smooth!

Overall im happy so far. It'll be interesting to see what the experts think when they get to analyse the inevitable changes, power supply etc.

Best regards
Old 1st March 2018
  #710
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_F View Post
Hi all, my U67 reissue arrived today in the sub-zero temperatures of London, and here is a little taste. U67 reissue/Brauner VMX/AKG C414 B-ULS.
All mics went into a Universal Audio 4110 to a Fireface UFX and into Logic, all non tube-mic cabling is mogami. It's the stock tube, though I have a couple of Tele's to try out.
Disclaimer: You have to listen to me singing Auld Lang Syne. The clean setting on the pre doesnt suit any of the mics really but its a leveler. Gain was matched in logic not on the pre.
For what its worth: I reluctantly sold my vintage U67 in November unaware of this re-issue, they sound similar in my opinion though so far I'd say the reissue is just a touch less 3D - I'm thinking this may change with a good NOS European tube as the old one had. I don't care for the connectors on the reissue (though they are fairly smooth) vs the vintage mic, the cable is really thin by comparison too. All the best, D
Auld Lang Mic - Test Darren Francis by Darren Francis | Free Listening on SoundCloud
Thanks for posting. I’m surprised that they didn’t send any out for reviews ahead of the release. You are the first (actually only) person I’ve seen with one online.
Old 2nd March 2018
  #711
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zasterz View Post
Thanks for posting. I’m surprised that they didn’t send any out for reviews ahead of the release. You are the first (actually only) person I’ve seen with one online.
No problem. Hopefully it's helpful. I'm aware I have a bit of an odd voice that always sounds a little bit fuzzy, so I hope it's possible to hear the mics past that.

All the best

D
Old 2nd March 2018
  #712
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_F View Post
You're welcome, I'll try a couple of Valvos and Mullards and see what sticks. I had good luck with NOS Teslas in my old mic too.
The new mic sounds less 'characterful', than my old one, like the the frequency response is smoother, if a new tube will add a bit more dimension then I see this as no bad thing, my vintage mic had lots of 1k.
When you lift the EQ on the top of the reissue they are very similar though, smooth!

Overall im happy so far. It'll be interesting to see what the experts think when they get to analyse the inevitable changes, power supply etc.

Best regards
Cool
Yeah I’ve had a few and they all sounded a little different.
Some smoother than others.
Slightly diff mids.some very good some sublime.had a early u60 that sounded perfect.
Keep us posted re: tubes
Old 2nd March 2018
  #713
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_F View Post
No problem. Hopefully it's helpful. I'm aware I have a bit of an odd voice that always sounds a little bit fuzzy, so I hope it's possible to hear the mics past that.

All the best

D
It’ll be interesting to hear it paired with some old standbys neve api etc
Old 2nd March 2018
  #714
Lives for gear
Quote:
Listening to yourself singing is like trying to watch yourself in a mirror while throwing a dart at a dartboard or doing a javelin jump. You're no longer in the moment, at the point of action, but evaluating a performance at the same precise moment you're supposed to be trying to execute it. Watching it changes it.
That's true of anything creative or performance orientated - even sports.

You can't be the editor and the creator at the same time.

I find kids practicing piano for grades stumble as they play through the piece, if I sing the melody as they play - then they play through the piece perfectly - simply because they're listening to me and not themselves - it's spooky to observe!

Now back to the U67 re-issue (which I wish I could afford!)
Old 2nd March 2018
  #715
Lives for gear
 
Piedpiper's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zasterz View Post
Exactly. But of course the problem you will have with having the mic in a place where the mouth is not meant to aim is that many singers will have mostly live mic-use experience and will intuitively aim their voice (airflow) at the mic. If you can get them to stay "off-axis" then you'll reduce those problems stemming from bursts of air hitting the capsule, such as plosives. What you're really trying to do is record the "hummers", the facial resonators and sinus cavities. The main problem singers face in recording is that these resonators are much more difficult to feel than the large chest resonator and without a sympathetic room, especially when using isolating headphones, it's really easy to get disorientated and lose voice-placement (focus). The voice unfortunately doesn't work like a guitar or horn where "if I press this key or hold down this string at this fret I will get the sound I expect". All kinds of calculations have to be made as to what the singing feels like internally, given the incomplete information available through the ears, to guide the production of tone. So with cans on, a singer (especially one without much recording experience) who can't feel themself resonating like they would in their favorite practice room is likely to compensate by moving closer to the mic because now in their headphones they can hear themselves more. But then this is a different tone altogether than they would normally get, likely quieter and more breathy, lacking resonance. Always the solution is to focus on the body ("humming" vibration) sensations more and less on the information coming to the ears, but that takes practice and the pressure of performing also tends to throw this capacity for mindfulness right out the window.

---

BTW here are some hacks if you're in a situation where you are noticing "diminishing returns" when tracking a vocalist (or yourself):

Take the one headphone off so the person also hears themself in the room. If you are noticing late timing especially that's a clue that they're using their ears too much to listen to the recorded sound (which has already happened, in a sense, so it's too late!)

Turn down the voice in the headphones (or sometimes turn it up: experiment.)

Use reverb to blur the voice a bit (in the monitor only) so the direct sound of it is less literal, promoting imagination and letting go of the details.

Instruct them to try a take focusing only on rhythm, timing, and not the (perceived) quality of the voice. You'd be surprised how often this suddenly makes missed notes no problem! You can help bring this about by adjusting the mix in favor of rhythmic elements to stimulate a rhythmic response. Actually responding to rhythm as opposed to the negative feedback-loop of the already-recorded voice is one of the main reasons why people notice that first takes are often better– the singer hasn't had enough time to get sucked in to the sound of their own voice as they tend to do once they get used to everything going on in the track.

Listening to yourself singing is like trying to watch yourself in a mirror while throwing a dart at a dartboard or doing a javelin jump. You're no longer in the moment, at the point of action, but evaluating a performance at the same precise moment you're supposed to be trying to execute it. Watching it changes it.
Really interesting thoughts. Obviously very context dependent. If I'm recording someone playing and singing at the same time, without a click, I prefer not even giving them headphones so they can relax into their sound in the room. Of course, this is not usually the case. I think most of my clients may not be as focussed on the kind of nuances that you're describing. I'm sure it factors in nonetheless though.
Old 3rd March 2018
  #716
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piedpiper View Post
I think most of my clients may not be as focussed on the kind of nuances that you're describing. I'm sure it factors in nonetheless though.
There’s no reason for anyone to focus on such nuances (technique) until something isn’t working the way they want. That’s when they come to me and I gotta figure out how to help them get what they want, which is always about redirecting their focus to something previously outside their awareness. But I guess all teaching is like that, really!
Old 3rd March 2018
  #717
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by mappee View Post
Nice ballsy rendition Darren. I can live with 1 & 3. 2 good but not as bodied.
Then again when your drunk on New Year's Eve they all work well, right?
Thanks for this.
Glad you liked. Never get involved with all the verses of Auld Lang Syne!!
Old 3rd March 2018
  #718
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_F View Post
Glad you liked. Never get involved with all the verses of Auld Lang Syne!!
Any further impressions to report after a second day with it, “Only Guy On Earth With The U67 Reissue”?
Old 3rd March 2018
  #719
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zasterz View Post
Any further impressions to report after a second day with it, “Only Guy On Earth With The U67 Reissue”?
[QUOTE=Zasterz;13174895]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_F View Post
Glad you liked. Never get involved with all the verses of Auld Lang Syne!!
Yes, I’m not sure why/if I’m the only one (it seems without searching) with one of these.
For what it’s worth, I ordered through Mike Fletcher at Red Dog in London, the mic left Germany on Monday and despite the weather was driven over to me from the shop free of charge on Thursday morning. The price was very competitive compared to list too. Red Dog plug over! (I have no connection to Red Dog! - just a punter, but I do like their attitude, so worth mentioning?)

Been busy mixing other stuff yesterday but I’ve now given the mic a longer burn in with the stock (presumably Russian?) tube, and later on today I will attempt to replicate some recordings made last October with my old 1963 U67. If I can find something that’s not copyright I’ll stick it up.

After that I’m first going to try a NOS Telefunken EF86 in the mic and see what/if it adds. I’ve got a couple of those and some Teslas to try, and have ordered Mullards too. Been told that NOS Valvo deliver so will order some too.

My impressions so far are good, it’s smooth with ‘textural’ bite/detail in the upper mids, smooth very controlled top, seemingly less around 200Hz than my previous 67 and less sense of 3D than the old mic.

Without repeating myself too much, my old mic seemed to have a slightly more erratic frequency response giving the impression of more ‘character’ whereas the new mic seems more linear and less eventful without EQ - but that is what we want from a 67 right?
To add, my old mic had all original capacitors/transformer but the brass ring capsule was re-skinned by Theirsch. While I’ve had 87’s with Theirsch re-skins in them that I didn’t like, I really did like this one, and as I’ve oft-wittered, it had the 3D thing.

My criticism regarding dimensionality may well be solved with a better tube - here’s hoping! Even if it doesn’t, I will be keeping and using this mic as the difference is small and I can already tell it has the ‘mixability’ of my old one.

Hope all this guff is of use!

Very best regards
D
Old 3rd March 2018
  #720
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

The originals had selected Telefunken EF-86s. If they are using that process selecting the new ones, a random NOS could be worse. What kind are they using?
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