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DMGAudio TrackComp Dynamics Plugins
Old 7th December 2017
  #421
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
My point was that frequency response alone isn't an arbiter of things sounding identical. Nor would I expect the Reds with and without trannies to sound the same, although I haven't compared.
The noise performance of transformers is magical. Really something worth investing in. Front page of lundahl.se "If you can hear it, it's not ours!". That's your mantra if you want to understand transformers in pro-audio. The transformers in a Red3 are BIG. Way too big to saturate, and FAR too big to clip. So I'd expect to see THD+N below -90dBu at 10Hz, and that would be entirely from the input trafo. That output transformer is the size of a power supply transformer. You won't saturate that without half the board exploding. That's all for CMRR.

I do love transformers. When I build units myself I'll almost always put in a transformer, because that's the deluxe (and trivial) way to balance/unbalance a signal. That said, with modern opamps, you can match that performance without... but if you're doing that, then maybe you should invest in some 0.1% resistors. Slap in a nice big transformer and forget the whole balancing issue. Perfect electrical isolation. Happy times.

I'm sure there are examples of small transformers being used in pro-audio gear and clipping [this comes to mind: CTX Cinemag Transformer Colour Kit – DIY Recording Equipment - unless there's bass, it's invisible, and I've never seen a trafo that small used in any production gear]; but I don't know of any besides that DIY kit offhand.

Transformers are "make good", not "make characterful". The case where you can argue otherwise is micpre input transformers, where you can mismatch pre and mic to get bumps in the frequency response. And that is -all- frequency response. The "classic" sound of micpre transformers is a very subtle high-frequency boost, which you can easily replicate with a tiny nudge of high frequency shelving. That and an almost invisible noise floor, which justifies the cost of the transformers immediately.

So, whilst I will obviously be measuring the transformers in the Red3, because I have to obsessively measure everything everywhere, I'll be utterly astounded if some design mistake had led to the transformers doing anything to the sound besides keeping noisefloor low and reducing cable interference.

Dave.
Old 7th December 2017
  #422
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
My point was that frequency response alone isn't an arbiter of things sounding identical. Nor would I expect the Reds with and without trannies to sound the same, although I haven't compared.
Oblique reply:
Your options are:
- Frequency response (but this isn't a thing at line level)
- Phase response (mathematically related to frequency response in the analogue domain)
- Distortion (not happening with big trafos)
- Noise (take out the trafos, noise performance might well deteriorate slightly)
- Magic.

Still desperately searching for magic... Every time I think I've found something (2A output stage), it turns out to just be maths...
Old 7th December 2017
  #423
Gear Head
 
Mimieux's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
FWIW a lot of plug-ins sound better at 96k without over-sampling than they do at 44 or 48 with over-sampling.
Yes, but running an entire project with plug-ins at 96kHz eats up tonnes of CPU.

Restricting oversampling to only a subset of plug-ins is more efficient. Better yet, ‘freezing’ a track that benefits from TrackComp's offline oversampling (or whatever other method exists to tackle aliasing) is one step better IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
The track series have clearly been optimised for minimum latency and maximum efficiency so that a great many instances can be run at the same time. Engineering design is always a compromise. You can only improve one aspect by degrading another.
An offline function within TrackComp would not undermine the philosophy of minimum latency or maximum efficiency, with the obvious exception of waiting for a track to ‘freeze’.

But I (and surely others) have to freeze some tracks anyway, so in reality my workflow is virtually unchanged, yet I reap the benefits of minimising aliasing distortion in some parts of my DSP.
Old 7th December 2017
  #424
Geariophile
 
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All good. Not looking for a magic fight.
Old 8th December 2017
  #425
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post


All good. Not looking for a magic fight.
I wish someone was. I still dream of finding some magic.
Old 8th December 2017
  #426
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimieux View Post
An offline function within TrackComp would not undermine the philosophy of minimum latency or maximum efficiency, with the obvious exception of waiting for a track to ‘freeze’.
If I do it, I'll do it realtime, so that what bounces to disk is what you heard before you hit bounce. I feel a bit edgy about the idea that you can render something that wasn't what you were listening to before. Spooks me out. It takes control away from you in a weird subtle way that I don't feel comfortable with.

Tbh, I wish that with EQuilibrium, I'd thought it through ahead of time, and locked the EQ Mode for render, so you can't suddenly switch from Digital to Linear Phase without having had to at least audition it first.

Dave.
Old 8th December 2017
  #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGamble View Post
I wish someone was. I still dream of finding some magic.
Never say never. Might end up with more measurable parameters in our lifetime.
Old 9th December 2017
  #428
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Mercado_Negro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGamble View Post
Worth pointing out- the transformers on the Red3 didn't change the sound any; just gave you better CMRR on the cabling.
Edit: Many people on the internet disagree with me, after some googling. All I can tell you is that I was sat with an audio precision and made measurements. It's flat.

Dave.
I think people tend to associate a difference in sound between old and latest Red 3's with the fact that most of the latest revisions don't have those transformers but lots of things changed inside so it could be anything really (power supply, VCA chip, etc).

EDIT: didn't Sonalksis have a red 3 emu?
Old 9th December 2017
  #429
Gear Maniac
 

honestly I always thought Cytomic did it great.

Old 9th December 2017
  #430
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by btfnk View Post
honestly I always thought Cytomic did it great.

Cytomic did it awesome! But I am sure Dave will make it better and feature rich - because DMG is top notch!!!!!
Old 9th December 2017
  #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tim.beneton View Post
Cytomic did it awesome! But I am sure Dave will make it better and feature rich - because DMG is top notch!!!!!
Hmmm...Cytomic is as well. I am using The Glue much more than my original HW SSL Comp. Just let's be fair to developers, everything Andy does is top class. Same goes for Dave.
Old 9th December 2017
  #432
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jantex View Post
Hmmm...Cytomic is as well. I am using The Glue much more than my original HW SSL Comp. Just let's be fair to developers, everything Andy does is top class. Same goes for Dave.
Cytomic - is killer!
taking into account when it was made it just didn't left a chance for competitors for a long long time! Andy definitely one of the best out there! I bought his "the scream" without demo trying! I think that means something...
Old 9th December 2017
  #433
Heb
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGamble View Post
If I do it, I'll do it realtime, so that what bounces to disk is what you heard before you hit bounce. I feel a bit edgy about the idea that you can render something that wasn't what you were listening to before. Spooks me out. It takes control away from you in a weird subtle way that I don't feel comfortable with.

Tbh, I wish that with EQuilibrium, I'd thought it through ahead of time, and locked the EQ Mode for render, so you can't suddenly switch from Digital to Linear Phase without having had to at least audition it first.

Dave.
That has always been my thought about oversampling only when rendering.
I dont want anything to change during rendering,
and I don't get why anyone would want that.
Old 9th December 2017
  #434
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heb View Post
That has always been my thought about oversampling only when rendering.
I dont want anything to change during rendering,
and I don't get why anyone would want that.
That is because we are different and our methods also...
That's why I asked Dave to give people a chance to choose!
Someone stated here that he doesn't need Dry/Wet Mix, Sidechain Ext In,
Sidechain HPF and other goodies in his production! fair enough - just don't use them! I need them like a sun...
Old 9th December 2017
  #435
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim.beneton View Post
That is because we are different and our methods also...
That's why I asked Dave to give people a chance to choose!
Someone stated here that he doesn't need Dry/Wet Mix, Sidechain Ext In,
Sidechain HPF and other goodies in his production! fair enough - just don't use them! I need them like a sun...
An option to oversample would be great, but I think Dave is wise to keep it the same offline as realtime. Plugins sound different when oversampled and you would mix differently because of it. Anyone who hits the oversample button without hearing the differences needs to consider if they can hear the difference, or whether an analyser is 'telling' them they need better fidelity.

Oversampling a signal often changes the dynamic range, altering its peak values. This will mean the detector circuit will hear something slightly different to when you were mixing, and different levels of compression will be applied. The fact that other developers consider aliasing a worse problem than altering the waveform is a matter of design principle and a choice, based on what you design the plugin to achieve.

I actually wish that the DAW manufactures would set standards for O/S into their various plugin formats so that it is a global choice - the CPU takes an unnecessary hit from every different oversampling process between brands, and each O/S filter could be different and change your impulse response drastically if using 10 O/S plugins on a track, depending on each up and down sample of every different filter for every different rate...
Old 9th December 2017
  #436
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Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

I think people should check out Dave's Compassion.
Old 9th December 2017
  #437
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I think people should check out Dave's Compassion.
Great sounding but definitely too complicated, you just want to play with it and than you loose focus on two primary things and thats mix and song writing. I find TrackComp great, easy to use...and it could sound even better with OS options.
Old 9th December 2017
  #438
unr
Gear Head
 

Had some really weird issues today with TrackComp. Meters not moving / couldn't use controls. That stuff worked for sure days ago! I did not do any updates, at least on the driver side. I'm using 2 graphic cards in Win 10 64 v1703, on main screen is Nvidia Geforce 570 driver 382.05, other screens are Intel HD Graphics 630, driver 21.20.16.4590)

Turns out when disabling OpenGL in the registry the bugs went away, though graphics are now less smooth.
Tried everything before like closing all Apps, restarting Live (9.7.5 64bit VST2) and so on.

Is there a known bug in the OpenGL framework Dave? Also i had some really weird stuff going on in Equilibrium on the other PC (AMD Graphics driver 17.11.2): When i switched the A/B/C.. comparison to another value suddenly all my settings for the initial preset (A) were lost too. When hitting the back bottom the whole history seemed to be corrupted and all filters were off.

Edit: After installing current drivers + rebooting OpenGL seems to work again. Still strange, it worked before with the old drivers for some time.

Last edited by unr; 9th December 2017 at 05:27 PM..
Old 10th December 2017
  #439
Gear Addict
 
leckel1996's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkandKurious View Post
An option to oversample would be great, but I think Dave is wise to keep it the same offline as realtime. Plugins sound different when oversampled and you would mix differently because of it. Anyone who hits the oversample button without hearing the differences needs to consider if they can hear the difference, or whether an analyser is 'telling' them they need better fidelity.

Oversampling a signal often changes the dynamic range, altering its peak values. This will mean the detector circuit will hear something slightly different to when you were mixing, and different levels of compression will be applied. The fact that other developers consider aliasing a worse problem than altering the waveform is a matter of design principle and a choice, based on what you design the plugin to achieve.

I actually wish that the DAW manufactures would set standards for O/S into their various plugin formats so that it is a global choice - the CPU takes an unnecessary hit from every different oversampling process between brands, and each O/S filter could be different and change your impulse response drastically if using 10 O/S plugins on a track, depending on each up and down sample of every different filter for every different rate...
I'm so with you on this. I can't stand the sound of oversampling on percussive material. I usually disable it in plugins if I'm given the option. The exception to this is when I'm trying to get some heavy distortion.
Old 13th December 2017
  #440
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
I think people should check out Dave's Compassion.
Compassion is about all I use anymore. I bought TrackComp before even auditioning it, but every time I mess around with it I still come back to Compassion. Yeah, it took me months to wrap my head around it, but now I feel like a dynamics god and anything else just seems inadequate. I think the only other comp plugin I use anymore is Devil-Loc, although I can do that with Compassion as well (sans distortion).

I just wish Compassion had their wonderful new GUI design!
Old 13th December 2017
  #441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTaylorMusic View Post
Compassion is about all I use anymore. I bought TrackComp before even auditioning it, but every time I mess around with it I still come back to Compassion. Yeah, it took me months to wrap my head around it, but now I feel like a dynamics god and anything else just seems inadequate. I think the only other comp plugin I use anymore is Devil-Loc, although I can do that with Compassion as well (sans distortion).

I just wish Compassion had their wonderful new GUI design!
I’ve also gradually moved to only every using Compassion for dynamics, for much the same reasons as you, as well as the fact that Compassion’s DSP just sounds better to my ears than any plugin compressor I’ve come across.

I only look elsewhere when I want to do something different to the transients, especially with longer attack times, and this is one area where TrackComp’s analog models are very cool.
Old 14th December 2017
  #442
M2E
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I like TrackComp but I feel it's still missing that grabbiness that the SSL Hardware Bus Compressor has.
Analog Obsession nailed it on their V2 of the Buster.
They messed up the attack/release on version 3 and their metering but, the way that it glues everything into the middle and the grabbiness of the compression is so key. It makes the middle have that solidness.
Maybe Dave should have a look at this.

Other than that, I like TrackComp. Easy to use.

So, why haven't I purchased it yet.

Well, it's true that TrackComp has all the different compressors in one which is great but, to be honest, there are a lot of spot on emus that take care of each hardware unit styles.

Buster = SSL Bus Compressor - Super low cpu (1% to 2%)
VMR = 3 different 1176's and super low cpu (3% to 5%)
VMR = Distressor with super low cpu (3% to 5%)
Novatron = Tube Comp ala Manley Vari Mu/Fairchild with low cpu (4% to 7%)
Black Rooster Audio = LA2A/LA3A/Neve Mic Pre with low cpu ( 3% to 9%)
Klanghelm = Retro 176 with low cpu (5% to 9%)

TrackComp was a little more on the cpu than these if I remember correctly.
I think I need to re-demo as he may have updated since I last tried it.
I have an older cpu (2009) so, cpu usage means a lot.
I know I need to get a newer cpu but I use Pro Tools HD as my mixing setup and everything just works flawless and that rarely happens. I don't want to move a pencil in the studio as I'm scared Pro Tools will become unstable. lol
To be honest, I have every Compressor/EQ/EFX/Saturation etc plugin be it TDM/RTAS/AU/VST and don't need another comp but I do love Dave's stuff.

Hey Dave, I know you were responsible for the Focusrite TDM Plugins that modeled the ISA hardware versions that later turned into the Midnight versions that obviously turned in the Red version...I won't say that to loud as we all know what happened there....lol

Anyway, I use to use the Red Hardware and ISA pieces back in the day.
Never knew about driving the Red units with their Transformers would have this magic sound. Is that what your talking about? Is that the magic your trying to figure out what people are talking about?

I know what you mean. When I talked to Paul Frindle of SSL fame, I mentioned to him about the SSL Bus Compressor and big board magic when pushed and he was like, I don't know what magic that is but, all they tried to do and their mission was to make everything as clean as possible. Try to tame/get rid of the hiss and make what digital is today pretty much.
He said he was always astonished at what people could get out of those boards but he said it had nothing to do with them. Their mind set was clean and accurate.

I think we all hear something in our heads that represents that sound and when something comes along that touches that since, we all gravitate towards that unit, plugin etc.

Color is in 100% now. If a plugin has a certain color, it will do well.
People/Producers/Mixers are not looking for clean anymore. We have that with Fabfilter and Avid/Logic plugins.
People are looking for dirt, saturation, tape, grit, soft compression to hard compression etc. Right now, that sells.
That's why companies like Kush, Klanghelm, BRA, Slate and others are getting so big is because people are looking to build a sound and for us old heads, we are looking for that sound of yesteryear.

Anyway, this post is getting to long but a lot to touch on.

Marc
Old 3 weeks ago
  #443
MJUC in HQ mode consumes more CPU power then TrackComp. And TrackComp has stereo link.


DBX160 would be totally welcomed!

Is it good adding models one at the time? Or do you wanna give us big upgrade?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #444
Gear Head
 

I'm testing the demo version of TrackComp (1.02) since few days.

It sounds great and I love the GUI.
The reverse make up gain is for me a great idea and it make sense to place it next to the Gain Reduction meter. Actually, this idea and the possibility to manage easily the volume before/after are absolutely great and I don't find it so easy in other compressors (where you need to monitor the volume with another metering plugin, alternating the comp on and off, to get a fair A/B comparison).


But I can't use (at all) the 76D model.
I hear a lot of pops (kind of numeric clipping) on most sources. Voice, keyboards, drums... It looks like this model can't manage the transients.
My gain staging is correct (I don't enter the plugin with very loud sources), I don't push the compressor very hard (slight threshold or make up gain moves) so it must be a problem of the plugin.

I use a 1176 emulation for the first time, so maybe I missed something in the way I need to use it.

By reading this thread, it looks like the 76D had problems since the beginning, but I was thinking theses problems were solved.
In my case, using the VST demo in Ableton Live 9.7 on a macbook with Sierra, they are not...
Old 2 weeks ago
  #445
Gear Maniac
 

I've got the full version on Logic/Sierra and not having any problems. Have you tried playing with Q-Bias?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #446
0e0
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvgenyStudio View Post

DBX160 would be totally welcomed!
i got to some DBX territory using the DMG mode..but yes i would always love a spot on one...

are there any really good dbx160s in software?

j

0=0
Old 2 weeks ago
  #447
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by onerob View Post
I've got the full version on Logic/Sierra and not having any problems. Have you tried playing with Q-Bias?
Yes of course.
Actually, I almost can't find any setting that doesn't distort. Even with the Q bias at -5%, if I want to hear the effect I need to push the make up gain harder and finally have distortion.
From time to time (it mostly depends on the source) the result is better, but never satisfying...

I must say that I tried with good gain staging (peaks at -12/-6db), bad gain staging (peaks at 0db), sources with transients, sources without transients, vocals, synths, percs... More or less same results.

As soon as I engage the 76D and get some work done, I've got some very nasty and unpleasant "digital like" distortion.

I'm using the 1.02 version, and none of my other plugins are doing that (I'm A/B'ing the same tracks with other compressors).

And I must say the other modes are ok (even if it clicks and pops quite often when you change mode or when you turn off/on the plugin).

Am I the only one to get theses problems with the last version ?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #448
Gear Head
 

Just an audio exemple of my problems
The first part is dry (the saturation comes from the original sound), the second part is with 76D engaged with "normal settings" (ratio 4:1, Q-bias -0,35%, I get 7.4 dB of gain reduction and I'm applying 5.2dB of make up gain).
Attached Files

Spill - 76D dist.mp3 (450.6 KB, 495 views)

Old 2 weeks ago
  #449
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calagan View Post
Just an audio exemple of my problems
The first part is dry (the saturation comes from the original sound), the second part is with 76D engaged with "normal settings" (ratio 4:1, Q-bias -0,35%, I get 7.4 dB of gain reduction and I'm applying 5.2dB of make up gain).
Strange. I've not experienced that with any of the three public builds released (as far as I can remember).
Old 2 weeks ago
  #450
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calagan View Post
Just an audio exemple of my problems
The first part is dry (the saturation comes from the original sound), the second part is with 76D engaged with "normal settings" (ratio 4:1, Q-bias -0,35%, I get 7.4 dB of gain reduction and I'm applying 5.2dB of make up gain).
Does it go away if you set the Q-bias lower or higher? I find the range between 0 and -1.5% or so to be really weird. Might be intended behaviour but really weird, especially if the unit is not constantly in gain reduction: either transitioning between not compressing and compressing or not compressing at all.

Edit Ok, I see in the post above that you have tried different Q-Bias settings
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