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Sonarworks releases Reference 4!
Old 12th June 2019
  #871
Quote:
Originally Posted by Home Studio 87 View Post
Same here… How can I make the plugin "Black" ?
Hey once you go Black...

Oh sorry, wrong forum!
Old 12th June 2019
  #872
Quote:
Originally Posted by blayz2002 View Post
Thanks, Filterfreak.

And I assume no changes in the perception of the sound correction? That's what I'm most worried about.
If you used "optimum" in the past (as I did), the new "mixed" mode is new DSP as far as I understand what Hrodulf is saying, so this would be different.

That being said, I think it's similar sounding, and as useful as a compromise between freq and transient accuracy.

I am shooting some new measurements sets, using the "b" and "c" options, which seem to be clarifying things further for my setup (and will allow me to move past my old fav profile that I trusted). I really like the way things sound with my old cal setting, but I kept feeling like I could still have slightly better translation. Now I feel like I can dial things in even better.

I find what works best for me is to shoot several sets of measurements (which always come out with small variations) and then find which cal translates the best to a wider range of high quality ref tracks.

Not quite there yet, but I am working my way through, and then will likely choose a new baseline cal moving forward.

So from my point of view, you can move forward with confidence - I was holding out for a long time do to preferring the optimum phase mode, and I feel my translation ref points have come out the other side with me from the update.

The new buffer setting on the Systemwide is very welcome as well...
Old 13th June 2019
  #873
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardtoe View Post
If you used "optimum" in the past (as I did), the new "mixed" mode is new DSP as far as I understand what Hrodulf is saying, so this would be different.

That being said, I think it's similar sounding, and as useful as a compromise between freq and transient accuracy.

I am shooting some new measurements sets, using the "b" and "c" options, which seem to be clarifying things further for my setup (and will allow me to move past my old fav profile that I trusted). I really like the way things sound with my old cal setting, but I kept feeling like I could still have slightly better translation. Now I feel like I can dial things in even better.

I find what works best for me is to shoot several sets of measurements (which always come out with small variations) and then find which cal translates the best to a wider range of high quality ref tracks.

Not quite there yet, but I am working my way through, and then will likely choose a new baseline cal moving forward.

So from my point of view, you can move forward with confidence - I was holding out for a long time do to preferring the optimum phase mode, and I feel my translation ref points have come out the other side with me from the update.

The new buffer setting on the Systemwide is very welcome as well...
Thanks again. I need to review the changes again and see what to expect. I use both Systemwide and the DAW plugin and have been using low latency mode the most.
Old 13th June 2019
  #874
adl
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I do get better (=more linear) frequenzy response with zero latency mode but less phase distortion with the new mixed mode. Not sure which one I should choose now, I really like the low lateny mode as the linearity is superb down to nearly 20Hz but as there is some pretty hard correction going on the phase shift might distort the signal /transients actually too much. How do you guys choose which setting is best?
Old 13th June 2019
  #875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blayz2002 View Post
Thanks, Filterfreak.

And I assume no changes in the perception of the sound correction? That's what I'm most worried about.
Thats my impression,,yes.
Old 13th June 2019
  #876
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adl View Post
I do get better (=more linear) frequenzy response with zero latency mode but less phase distortion with the new mixed mode. Not sure which one I should choose now, I really like the low lateny mode as the linearity is superb down to nearly 20Hz but as there is some pretty hard correction going on the phase shift might distort the signal /transients actually too much. How do you guys choose which setting is best?
You will turn of the plugin anyway during mixdown, so a slightly distorted signal will not be in the final mix
Old 13th June 2019
  #877
adl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filterfreak View Post
You will turn of the plugin anyway during mixdown, so a slightly distorted signal will not be in the final mix
What I meant was, if I'd be better able to decide mixing decisions (setting the attack of an compressor better for example) with less phase distortion or would it be better to have a more overall linear frequency response. Besides that I am way over thinking this whole thing, which mode (and why) you guys usually go for (especially with the new mixed mode).
Old 13th June 2019
  #878
Gear Nut
 

I don't know if there was ever a definitive answer on this, but I wanted to put in another vote for adding a Sennheiser 595 profile to the supported headphone lineup. I know there were a number of requests back when the headphone edition for Ref 3 came out.
Old 13th June 2019
  #879
Quote:
Originally Posted by adl View Post
What I meant was, if I'd be better able to decide mixing decisions (setting the attack of an compressor better for example) with less phase distortion or would it be better to have a more overall linear frequency response. Besides that I am way over thinking this whole thing, which mode (and why) you guys usually go for (especially with the new mixed mode).
I find its good to use "mixed" as my primary mode for accuracy when mixing frequencies, then go "zero latency" to check vibe with the proper transient hit.

I used the old "Optimum" mode almost exclusively in the past, but am now staring to feel zero latency more.

I don't use "Linear Phase" mode - seems to take the life out of mix for me on my setup here, and I just cant connect to do the mixing work.....

What would be best, would be both, ha ha, but there is "no free lunch" as Hrodulf said earlier in the thread.
Old 13th June 2019
  #880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Oracle View Post
Why is dark mode only available through the Systemwide App but not the Reference 4 plugin? I only see a bell icon in the Reference 4 Plugin on the top right hand side.
Systemwide and the plugin have different layouts here too. Hoping they can get everything updated to the new design soon.
Old 13th June 2019
  #881
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Would be cool if they made a preference option to automatically bypass the plugin when offline bouncing (rather than just give a warning).
Old 14th June 2019
  #882
Quote:
Originally Posted by mutetourettes View Post
did anyone get this working happily with headphones and a subpac?
Yep I'm using that setup. The only real issue for me is the latency with the SubPac, it's very delayed. I calibrate it by using a delay on the main mix with a sub group sending off a mono only send to the SubPac.

The SubPac feed has to be earlier than everything else as the delay of the SubPac processing will drive you nuts. Just fire off a kick drum and use some sort of audio delay plugin (lot's out there for free) to delay the main mix until the SubPac and audio are in time.

Then this system sounds huge or rather feels huge. Great for saving your ears when monitoring and also not needing super low freq response monitors which can make for a better Sonarworks filter in smaller rooms.

I have a few more stages though as I use Audio to CV to control my analog synths so need to also adjust for playback latency in this setup.

Cubase 10 Pro helps with it's control room setup.
Old 16th June 2019
  #883
So I've installed the new version, states it is activated. Gone to load up my old profile calibration ....and says it needs to be activated...ho hum.

But on another note I see this in the calibration settings, 1 of 3 different sound sources to use for calibration depending on your room.

Ok great, any info on which rooms would suit which sound or do I guess?
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Old 16th June 2019
  #884
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Well I've just installed Sonarworks version 4.3.1, and as it's Sunday afternoon, I decided to do some more sets of measurements with the default mic location test signal to see if my little studio acoustics have changed at all (yes, very slightly - I must have moved a few things since I last measured a few months back).

Then I thought I'd try two more sets of measurements, this time using Signal B and Signal C mic location signal type. Well, the three sets of curves were fairly close, and in my room Default and C were almost identical. However, B looked and sounded slightly different (we're only talking about 0.5dB here and there at maximum. However, in my studio I preferred this B calibration curve, which seemed to result in a slightly sharper stereo image and better overall balance.

As they say, your mileage may vary, but since it only takes about 20 minutes to try each, why not do this in your space to see which (if any) sounds best. Then it won't be a guess, and you may find in your space that the different mic location test signals make little audible difference to the end result.

As for the different Filter Types, I've ended up choosing the new Mixed one. To my ears the Zero Latency one sounded wider and more detailed than the Linear Phase one, and the bass end did sound slightly different. but I felt the Mixed was the best compromise


Martin



Quote:
Originally Posted by Harvey Specter View Post
So I've installed the new version, states it is activated. Gone to load up my old profile calibration ....and says it needs to be activated...ho hum.

But on another note I see this in the calibration settings, 1 of 3 different sound sources to use for calibration depending on your room.

Ok great, any info on which rooms would suit which sound or do I guess?
Old 16th June 2019
  #885
Cheers for the info, it is all a bit cryptic from Sonarworks though. So much work into a product and not a lot on the explanation of things.
Old 16th June 2019
  #886
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yewtreemagic View Post
Well I've just installed Sonarworks version 4.3.1, and as it's Sunday afternoon, I decided to do some more sets of measurements with the default mic location test signal to see if my little studio acoustics have changed at all (yes, very slightly - I must have moved a few things since I last measured a few months back).

Then I thought I'd try two more sets of measurements, this time using Signal B and Signal C mic location signal type. Well, the three sets of curves were fairly close, and in my room Default and C were almost identical. However, B looked and sounded slightly different (we're only talking about 0.5dB here and there at maximum. However, in my studio I preferred this B calibration curve, which seemed to result in a slightly sharper stereo image and better overall balance.

As they say, your mileage may vary, but since it only takes about 20 minutes to try each, why not do this in your space to see which (if any) sounds best. Then it won't be a guess, and you may find in your space that the different mic location test signals make little audible difference to the end result.

As for the different Filter Types, I've ended up choosing the new Mixed one. To my ears the Zero Latency one sounded wider and more detailed than the Linear Phase one, and the bass end did sound slightly different. but I felt the Mixed was the best compromise


Martin
Are you sure it isn’t just a variation of every profile made being different? Every time I take a profile it’s slightly different, sometimes very similar, sometimes a good amount different. I was under the impression that the signal type was for helping identify the location and the sweep is the same for each... but that was just my observation after a bunch of testing.
Old 16th June 2019
  #887
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Wondering if the new update has included longer recordings of the test signals, as my Kii speakers has long enough delay before playback so that the high end got chopped off from the measurements.
Old 16th June 2019
  #888
Gear Head
 
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Hi Benj!

Yes, you are exactly right that the signal type is for helping identify the location of your microphone for each of the suite of measurements, and yes, the sweep signal itself after the various type of location 'chirp' is exactly the same. However, the fact that one of the three test signals gave me a slightly better stereo image suggests to me at least that this is exactly why Sonarworks provided a selection of three location signals.

In a totally dead acoustic environment (i.e. an anechoic chamber) I'm pretty sure that the three test signals would each produce almost exactly the same final curves (especially if you have a robot holding the mic in exactly the correct position for each of the tests ) However, in the real world, when each test signal captured by the measurement mic is composed not only of the direct test signal, but also all the reflections of it bouncing off walls, ceiling, floors, furniture, gear and so on in our studios, there could well be some small confusion about each absolute mic position.

So to my mind it's quite possible that the absolute location of the measurement mic might be measured more accurately with one location signal than another. As Harvey mentioned, there IS an element of guesswork involved - if you run measurements with all three location test signals they could all look and sound virtually the same, or you could like me you might find one that sounds more focused than the others.

Hopefully someone such as Hrodulf from Sonarworks can confirm or deny this


Martin


Quote:
Originally Posted by Benj View Post
Are you sure it isn’t just a variation of every profile made being different? Every time I take a profile it’s slightly different, sometimes very similar, sometimes a good amount different. I was under the impression that the signal type was for helping identify the location and the sweep is the same for each... but that was just my observation after a bunch of testing.
Old 17th June 2019
  #889
First about the latency with DSP monitors and other setups. The measurement step where you keep the mic near the mid-driver of your speaker measures what the system latency is and compensates for that. Therefore it generally knows when to listen so that it catches the test tones.

As for the test tones - the default should do the trick in most of the cases. Others are there if your room is very reflective and the software cannot pick out the positioning tone from the reflections.
Old 17th June 2019
  #890
Gear Head
 
yewtreemagic's Avatar
 

Thanks Hrodulf - that confirms what I strongly suspected


Martin
Old 17th June 2019
  #891
Great....put it on the website manual :P
Old 18th June 2019
  #892
lbx
Gear Nut
Not sure if this has been mentioned on this thread - but it has been mentioned on the 4.3 release thread in New Product Alert section.

A number of users are unable to use the 4.3 version due to audio glitches.

In my case - Win10 v1809 - I get small glitches and stutters in the audio (frequently - sometimes up to 2 a second) in Systemwide. I didn't go as far as trying the plugin out - but it sounds like the plugin would also be affected.

Reverting back to the previous release (4.2.xx) fixed the issue for me.

It should be noted - I did not remeasure the room - but pretty sure I read that I didn't need to. Although I probably haven't remeasured the room since version 4 or 4.1.

On another note - when did the right-click on Systemwide icon start opening up a menu and not the audio settings page. I frequently have to switch audio devices - and now the process involves even more clicks (it never remembers the correct settings if my soundcard is switched off when booting the computer - and my soundcard (which is ancient) has to be switched off during boot or it doesn't initialize properly in Windows).

So now there's even more clicks to get it working nicely. I did notice during my brief interlude on 4.3 that at least the audio devices appeared in the menu (not so in 4.2.xx - previous version) - which is great but I still have to open an additional menu folder to get to the setting I need. Is there any chance of storing favourite settings so I can simply switch to the correct audio device with minimum fuss?
Old 18th June 2019
  #893
Yeah, Windows with the new drivers is giving us trouble. The devs are working hard to figure out how to fix this.
Old 18th June 2019
  #894
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrodulf View Post
Yeah, Windows with the new drivers is giving us trouble. The devs are working hard to figure out how to fix this.
Is the issue just when using systemwide?
Old 18th June 2019
  #895
I turn off system wise as I run a 2nd sound card into my main sound card into Cubase 10 Pro for playback of youtube, windows audio files etc .... then in Cubase I have Sonarworks running on the Control Room.

Just a simple cheap Maudio Delta 2 in out card (onboard audio was too noisy).

Cubase is great as you don't have to worry about exporting when using the control room and inserting Sonarworks there.
Old 20th June 2019
  #896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benj View Post
Is the issue just when using systemwide?
Yeah. We reworked the drivers and it's causing trouble. The plug-in shouldn't be affected.
Old 20th June 2019
  #897
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I'm loving the dark theme.
Old 20th June 2019
  #898
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Can anybody post a link to the manual please?
Old 20th June 2019
  #899
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Link to manual pdf on this page: https://sonarworks.zendesk.com/hc/en...ence-software-
Old 26th June 2019
  #900
Hey guys,

I just posted a poll regarding our plans of implementing ASIO in Reference 4.

POLL: Sonarworks and ASIO

Drop a comment there or just tell us in the poll what you would like to get first.
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