The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
Airwindows PurestGain: AU, Mac and PC VST
Old 6th December 2018
  #31
Quote from some one named Raven, on your website:

"Am i right in saying it makes things sound a little cleaner than it was even when it is just nudged up or down a touch? (default settings assumedly makes it bypassed)"

I figured you are more inclined to answer, here. I saw the question, and I was wondering what your answer is. My thoughts were that its probably no. Purestgain is just the most clean gain plugin system, except for BitShiftGain.

Suggestion: make it possible for other users to reply to comments on your website -- and have emails sent out if/when they do get replied to. I think a lot of people don't use the plugins forums. That way, somebody like me (or others, who know your plugins better than I do) could help by posting replies to people on your site, when ever its necessary.

Another option could be to have something near the header of your site, saying that you reply to things on gearslutz and other forums, but not on youtube or your site.
Old 10th August 2019
  #32
Gear Head
 

Hi Chris, hi guys sorry to necro this topic but I'm looking for the best possible technical usage of PurestGain in regard of gain staging with a VI that has its own internal volume/gain knob.

Which of the below methods would you regards as the ideal ultimate gain staging formula?

A:
1. Load the Virtual Instrument/Plugin and set its volume to the maximum possible output (To get the best possible resolution)
2. Leave the DAW's fader at 0 dB
3. Use PurestGain for bringing it down

or

B:
1. Load the Virtual Instrument/Plugin
2. Leave the DAW's fader at 0 dB
3. Set the gain from the VI's internal volume knob (And not use PurestGain at all).
Would I lose quality or limit resolution when only using the VI's internal gain for bringing the volume down, sometimes to a minimum barely hearing the sound? Would PurestGain preserve more information and signal integrity when lowering the volume to extreme settings barely audible?

PurestGain is indeed the cleanest gain plugin available which I'm using always on audio tracks. I've done nulltests and it beats almost any DAW's gain fader. Kudos for that!

Thanks in advance much appreciated!
Old 10th August 2019
  #33
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by branscobe View Post
Hi Chris, hi guys sorry to necro this topic but I'm looking for the best possible technical usage of PurestGain in regard of gain staging with a VI that has its own internal volume/gain knob.

Which of the below methods would you regards as the ideal ultimate gain staging formula?
Since you are working in what's certainly a floating point system (otherwise you wouldn't be able to use these plugins at all) it makes no sense to set the VI's output as loud as possible. It won't help and does nothing useful. If you're dealing with internal gain trims, in the absence of being able to defeat the gain processing, your best bet is to treat the internal gain trim as if it is a BitShiftGain.

All that is, is an ordinary gain stage guaranteed to change only the exponent of the audio's 'number', never the mantissa. 6 dB increments are the way to do that.

Since you're not guaranteed that '6 dB' on the VI will necessarily be exactly right (it might be, or it might be a bit off) your best bet is to give the VI unity gain. That's a 0 db change, or multiplying by 1.0: not perfect (it still involves forcing floating-point stuff to be multiplied by a value in the 1.0 range, which can zero out extremely quiet samples) but as clean as anything BitShiftGain can do.

Also remember: maybe you're not really hearing the benefits of PurestGain all the time, it's designed to work on a subtlety level that is NOT human-grade obvious. But this stuff adds up, and it's okay to care about that. I prefer that people not say this stuff is night-and-day obvious: I think of it as 'once in a while you'd notice the lack of it and be frustrated, or just have a moment of auditory enjoyment that would otherwise be blurred'.
Old 12th August 2019
  #34
Gear Head
 

Thanks Chris, I very appreciate your thoughts on this. What I get from your comments is that not using the VI's internal gain function is the safest way to ensure max quality, instead using BitshiftGain for -6dB steps or PurestGain for variable dB values.

Do I assume correctly it's the same concept for trimming as well as for adding gain? i.e. What would you suggest for VI Presets that have the internal gain knob set at unity gain and STILL have a very low output volume: Ideally use BitshiftGain/PurestGain? Or using its internal volume knob to bring up the output volume (force more info from the source)?

That would be interesting to know, thanks for your time!
Old 12th August 2019
  #35
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by branscobe View Post
Thanks Chris, I very appreciate your thoughts on this. What I get from your comments is that not using the VI's internal gain function is the safest way to ensure max quality, instead using BitshiftGain for -6dB steps or PurestGain for variable dB values.

Do I assume correctly it's the same concept for trimming as well as for adding gain? i.e. What would you suggest for VI Presets that have the internal gain knob set at unity gain and STILL have a very low output volume: Ideally use BitshiftGain/PurestGain? Or using its internal volume knob to bring up the output volume (force more info from the source)?
You can certainly use BitShiftGain to bring up output pretty much from anywhere, no matter how low the output, losslessly. That'll only change the exponent, so that's the closest thing you can get to perfect gain boost in the box (in a floating point system of any kind).

If you're going to adjust in finer than 6dB steps, there's no reason you couldn't just use PurestGain by itself to add a bunch of gain and then dial in the fine detail. If it's a very large change, larger than PurestGain alone would do, you could use BitShiftGain followed by PurestGain and it'd be fine. (all this is at a level of detail where it will never be that big a deal, but you're looking for 'best' answers so I'm giving them)

In general, whatever the level of the VI, you're probably best off leaving its internal gains all at unity gain, where possible.
Old 13th August 2019
  #36
Lives for gear
Chris, PurestGain has been daily in use here. Thank you for that! And load of other great things you've made! I have a smallish request though.. To fully implement PurestGain it would be awesome to have it tweaked a bit on the automation side. Currently if I draw volume automation (in Reaper), the volume changes are way too drastic, so it would be awesome to have finer control if possible.
Old 14th August 2019
  #37
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZenMaster View Post
Chris, PurestGain has been daily in use here. Thank you for that! And load of other great things you've made! I have a smallish request though.. To fully implement PurestGain it would be awesome to have it tweaked a bit on the automation side. Currently if I draw volume automation (in Reaper), the volume changes are way too drastic, so it would be awesome to have finer control if possible.
Hmm, interesting. So what you need is not so much 'coarse control' and 'smoothed control that goes to zero', as 'same, but fine control'? If I remember correctly we've got +- 40 dB on the dB related control. How many dB should the 'trim' control, for finer adjustments, have?
Old 18th August 2019
  #38
Gear Head
 

Would -6dB set with PurestGain technically equal exactly BitShiftGain’s -6dB setting or would you regard the latter as superior?
Old 18th August 2019
  #39
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by branscobe View Post
Would -6dB set with PurestGain technically equal exactly BitShiftGain’s -6dB setting or would you regard the latter as superior?
BitShiftGain is cleaner than PurestGain when matched as you describe.
Old 18th August 2019
  #40
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Symphony Sid View Post
BitShiftGain is cleaner than PurestGain when matched as you describe.
Sid is correct. PurestGain doesn't make exceptions for exact 6db increments, and that's all BitShiftGain does.
Old 19th August 2019
  #41
Gear Head
 

Great info, thanks! Chris, could you think if an ultimate gain plugin that combines both abilities, i.e. a PurestGain plugin that switches to BitshiftGain behavior at 6dB steps? This way we could use an ultimate single plug for gain purposes, that would be awesome!
Old 19th August 2019
  #42
Lives for gear
 
StoneyBCN's Avatar
 

For me, the perfect recipe would be the bit-sized 6.0205dB steps of BSG on the bottom fader, and the fine-tuned +/- 6.0205dB range for final placement/automation on the top fader.

Surprising, there's still a lot of useful implementations of gain control yet to be discovered...
Old 4 weeks ago
  #43
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulenJVM View Post
Am I the only one having these troubles? I can't believe it would be my system at fault, every other plugin I own works as expected. Are you guys able to type in values for gain values?

This is on Win 10 Pro, Cubase 8.5 Pro.
No, you are not the only one. PurestGain behaves in the same manner in my computer (Win 7), in Console Art-Tekhnika and in BlueCat MB-7 Mixer and in BlueCat PatchWork.

Frankly speaking, it's a pain in the ass to control the PurestGain. It's just maddening not to be able to type in the exact values in dB. The slider is so small, so sensitive to the mouse movements, the steps are too big...

I can type 0.2 or 0.3, etc. and the PurestGain converts it to dB...

Mr.Chris, you are a genius of digital audio, and your plugins are free but, in terms of convenience in use, they are user-hostile.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #44
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ironmine View Post
No, you are not the only one. PurestGain behaves in the same manner in my computer (Win 7), in Console Art-Tekhnika and in BlueCat MB-7 Mixer and in BlueCat PatchWork.

Frankly speaking, it's a pain in the ass to control the PurestGain. It's just maddening not to be able to type in the exact values in dB. The slider is so small, so sensitive to the mouse movements, the steps are too big...

I can type 0.2 or 0.3, etc. and the PurestGain converts it to dB...

Mr.Chris, you are a genius of digital audio, and your plugins are free but, in terms of convenience in use, they are user-hostile.
Thing is, I'm not doing it. I'm using Steinberg's own template code showing me how to make VST2s and their own methods, and there's nothing in the format anywhere that draws a text box. It's not meant to: the DAW is.

Same for the Audio Units: the generic interface spec doesn't draw the controls or choose whether a text box is drawn or not. If I was to introduce that, even if I knew how to do that within the generic spec, I would be breaking things and trying to override how the DAW does it. Writing VST2GUIs is different, and not out of the question, but it would probably mean abandoning the AUs in the process: if that was to happen you'd get an entire GUI out of it, though I don't guarantee that it would let you type in numbers. I like analog gear, which in some cases doesn't even have clear markings: some users find this inspiring, and some would certainly find it hostile 'cos it's not for everybody.

I guess it depends on what you need to do as an audio engineer

And as JulenJVM himself says,
Quote:
As a test, I´ve switched one of my other plugins to the Generic GUI (didn´t know you could do that), and I get the same problem. So I´m sorry for troubling you, I´m off to open a ticket with Steinberg!
Not at all a problem to trouble me: that's part of my job, and it is my job to not react unkindly when people are accusing me of being hostile and a big meanie but I swear… it ain't me. You may be seeing VSTGUIs that LOOK like they are generic.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #45
Lives for gear
 
JulenJVM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
And as JulenJVM himself says,


Not at all a problem to trouble me: that's part of my job, and it is my job to not react unkindly when people are accusing me of being hostile and a big meanie but I swear… it ain't me. You may be seeing VSTGUIs that LOOK like they are generic.
Hi Chris,

The post you quoted is from 2017, and it referes to the 1st ticket I opened with Steinberg. That was for Cubase 8.5. They acknowledged the bug, as it was affecting ALL plugins loaded with the generic GUI. This bug is fixed now in Cubase 10.

Then earlier on this year, I noticed that the bug is still present in Cubase 10 and Airwindows plugins. So I duely opened a new ticket, and this was Steinberg´s reply:

"The issue you are describing does not occur in Steinberg standard plug-ins or other known ones such as Waves or Native Instruments. Unfortunately, we cannot check it because this is a third-party plug-in. Please refer to its manufacturer for more information."

It looks like your plugins are missing some parameter that would allow to manually input values. I´ve done a rough search on Google to try to find answers, but I know nothing about coding, so I´m of very little help here. I´ll let you know if I ever find anything, but maybe someone with more knowledge than me could help more.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #46
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
OK, here's the thing. Can you find other THIRD PARTY plugins that do give you a text box when used in generic form, as you tried in 2017? As in, third party VST2.4 plugins? I do not know what parameter Steinberg would have that they don't publicize, but if there exists other third party plugins that can do this IN GENERIC FORM then that proves it can be done.

At which point I begin saving up Patreon money to pay some competing developer to tell me, because Steinberg will not tell me (they don't want me making VST2s anymore) and competing commercial developers, shall we say, will not be eager to tell me.

Steinberg are about as nice to work with as Apple. Which is to say, I don't expect any sort of cooperation unless perhaps I'm doing what they want: and since they aren't super into the kind of backward compatibility I insist on providing, we may be at an impasse here. I suppose you could check to see if Waves or Native Instruments, run in generic mode, allow text entry? God knows Waves isn't going to tell me anything, but this industry is full of secret APIs and little quirks that only favored devs get to be privy to. Apple does that, and if Steinberg is doing it, I wouldn't be utterly shocked to discover it.

If I do end up discovering the secret API and it's real, that becomes another 'update every single plugin to conform' scenario. Hell for me, but it would solve your problem VERY thoroughly.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #47
Gear Addict
 
candyflip's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JulenJVM View Post
Then earlier on this year, I noticed that the bug is still present in Cubase 10 and Airwindows plugins.
Same story with AW and Studio One v3 and v4 :(
Old 3 weeks ago
  #48
Lives for gear
 
JulenJVM's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
OK, here's the thing. Can you find other THIRD PARTY plugins that do give you a text box when used in generic form, as you tried in 2017? As in, third party VST2.4 plugins? I do not know what parameter Steinberg would have that they don't publicize, but if there exists other third party plugins that can do this IN GENERIC FORM then that proves it can be done.

At which point I begin saving up Patreon money to pay some competing developer to tell me, because Steinberg will not tell me (they don't want me making VST2s anymore) and competing commercial developers, shall we say, will not be eager to tell me.

Steinberg are about as nice to work with as Apple. Which is to say, I don't expect any sort of cooperation unless perhaps I'm doing what they want: and since they aren't super into the kind of backward compatibility I insist on providing, we may be at an impasse here. I suppose you could check to see if Waves or Native Instruments, run in generic mode, allow text entry? God knows Waves isn't going to tell me anything, but this industry is full of secret APIs and little quirks that only favored devs get to be privy to. Apple does that, and if Steinberg is doing it, I wouldn't be utterly shocked to discover it.

If I do end up discovering the secret API and it's real, that becomes another 'update every single plugin to conform' scenario. Hell for me, but it would solve your problem VERY thoroughly.
Hello Chris,

I´ve checked other brands, and most of them show the same behaviour with the generic GUIs.

The only ones I can see that work as expected in my system are: Waves and IK Multimedia (I tried the Tape Collection, you can type values).

Other brands like Acustica, Eventide, Black Rooster, Boz, Cytomic, DDMF etc etc etc all show the same behaviour. It´s pretty cheeky from Steinberg not to admit this as an in-house problem, and put the blame on the devs instead. Somehow they are not giving away all the info you guys need to code VSTs.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump