Waves Audio Announces Waves Nx – a Virtual Mix Room Plugin - Page 2 - Gearslutz
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Waves Audio Announces Waves Nx – a Virtual Mix Room Plugin
Old 23rd January 2016
  #31
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Jeezo's Avatar
Am i the only one stressing about the dpc latency of bluetooth streaming ...or camera operation ?

When i work , at least i m in plane mode .....

So my question is simple , can we simply have great results without the mouvement analysis side. ?
Old 23rd January 2016
  #32
Lives for gear
$49.00 for the plugin, tracker under $100.00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhm8qHZdcPU
Old 23rd January 2016
  #33
Demoed this today. I thought it was very cool. Not sure the tracking is necessary unless you are working in surround, but it's it's interesting AND it does work.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #34
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
Am i the only one stressing about the dpc latency of bluetooth streaming ...or camera operation ?

When i work , at least i m in plane mode .....

So my question is simple , can we simply have great results without the mouvement analysis side. ?
No. without head tracking the 3D image will collapse. No tracking not NX!
Old 23rd January 2016
  #35
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by djkazzanova View Post
I guess is another variation of the Focusrite VRM Box
NO, this is a completely different thing!

reserve your judgments until you listen to this.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #36
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Jeezo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by waves NX View Post
No. without head tracking the 3D image will collapse. No tracking not NX!
not good , i do think this head movement analysis is great and logical to really simulate real word behaving , as well as crossfeed , but a "without " optimised option is a must for me .
Old 23rd January 2016
  #37
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
not good , i do think this head movement analysis is great and logical to really simulate real word behaving , as well as crossfeed , but a "without " optimised option is a must for me .
Jezzo, when you are listening to audio in a room from speakers the sound changes as you move your head in the room. even miniature movements is what enables you to perceive sound in 3D.

In NX is the same, once you wear headphones and movement tracking we simulate the same experience as if you visit a room and are listening to this in real time.

once you disable NX you will hear the sound collapse into normal headphone listening

NX is modelling a perfect speaker and an ideal room with minimal coloration. this product does not try to simulate the sound and distortion of a certain brand of speakers. we also dis not sample a specific room, rather created an artificial one which retains low coloration and flat response and preserves imaging while giving you a great impression of a sound stage. you need to hear this to understand
Old 23rd January 2016
  #38
Lives for gear
 

I like the idea and the price is good at $49, will use it with my HD600's and Sonarworks calibration.

Not sure on the head tracking or its worth, one of the benefits of headphones is that the environment does not change with head movement so why emulate this.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #39
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Jeezo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by waves NX View Post
Jezzo, when you are listening to audio in a room from speakers the sound changes as you move your head in the room. even miniature movements is what enables you to perceive sound in 3D.

In NX is the same, once you wear headphones and movement tracking we simulate the same experience as if you visit a room and are listening to this in real time.

once you disable NX you will hear the sound collapse into normal headphone listening

NX is modelling a perfect speaker and an ideal room with minimal coloration. this product does not try to simulate the sound and distortion of a certain brand of speakers. we also dis not sample a specific room, rather created an artificial one which retains low coloration and flat response and preserves imaging while giving you a great impression of a sound stage. you need to hear this to understand
Man i know it , but also be sure that when i do critical listening , i tend to not dance the polka at the same time , i just sit in the sweet spot and concnetrate ....

What i would love is to have this same precision no matter my (head) position.
That's why i said that if this could be optionnal it would be great , beacuse this feature to recreate real life is in fact some that we want to avoid in real life time to time ....

This is what i like about my SPL and crossfeed technology , i have a great impression not matter my head or chair positonning
Old 23rd January 2016
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Proton View Post
I like the idea and the price is good at $49, will use it with my HD600's and Sonarworks calibration.

Not sure on the head tracking or its worth, one of the benefits of headphones is that the environment does not change with head movement so why emulate this.
the goal of this product is to emulate sound of a perfect rom and speakers on headphones. in a room if you move the sound stays at the same place and doe not move with you! if you turn 180 degrees the sound is from behind... we do the same thing with NX , i you are tracking via NX hardware head tracker you will get the same effect. You can also track with camera but it is more limited in region of movement and needs to see your face.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #41
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
Man i know it , but also be sure that when i do critical listening , i tend to not dance the polka at the same time , i just sit in the sweet spot and concnetrate ....

What i would love is to have this same precision no matter my (head) position.
That's why i said that if this could be optionnal it would be great , beacuse this feature to recreate real life is in fact some that we want to avoid in real life time to time ....

This is what i like about my SPL and crossfeed technology , i have a great impression not matter my head or chair positonning
actually, even if you are sitting still you are still moving and your mind uses this movement to create a 3D impression of sound around you. NX does the same thing.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waves NX View Post
actually, even if you are sitting still you are still moving and your mind uses this movement to create a 3D impression of sound around you. NX does the same thing.
Man i understand what you guyz trying to achieve , i'm just saying that the system for some can be a constraint , you can keep trying to demonstrate it's great , witch i'm absolutly sure it is , (i know you guyz are serious and skilled) , i'm concerned by the system interaction .

That's all , if it was hardware based like a box independant to my computer , we wouldn't have this conversation . I do know data streaming wireless can create dpc latency hits , in a mixing situation with high buffer settings , this could be transparent (or not sometime) , with low buffers it can be real problematic .

Same for webcam , i'm pretty sure that my webcam on my HP elitebook will not cause any problem so the Quadro drivers are optimised and certified , but on my dell xps , not sure , as well as on my desktop 4790S based (witch has no dedicated gpu).
Old 23rd January 2016
  #43
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
Man i understand what you guyz trying to achieve , i'm just saying that the system for some can be a constraint , you can keep trying to demonstrate it's great , witch i'm absolutly sure it is , (i know you guyz are serious and skilled) , i'm concerned by the system interaction .

That's all , if it was hardware based like a box independant to my computer , we wouldn't have this conversation . I do know data streaming wireless can create dpc latency hits , in a mixing situation with high buffer settings , this could be transparent (or not sometime) , with low buffers it can be real problematic .

Same for webcam , i'm pretty sure that my webcam on my HP elitebook will not cause any problem so the Quadro drivers are optimised and certified , but on my dell xps , not sure , as well as on my desktop 4790S based (witch has no dedicated gpu).
NX does not introduce any meaningful latency on the audio. same as a q10 or so...

For NX to work on your PC or Mac or any device we must have head tracking data. at this time we have two ways to do head tracking.

1. webcam camera. this needs proper lighting to work and camera needs to see one single face. so camera will work in distant range it can see your face.

2. Hardware head tracking unit. it is slightly larger then a AAA battery that is used to power it. it will work 40-50 hours of movement time. so if you are not wearing it it will turn to standby. The head tracker unit communicate with computer or phone or tablet via bluetooth BTE version 4 and above. no audio is going over BT just head tracking information. typical range of BT device should be 10 meeter radios from your device. This units allow you road freely, turn anywhere.

Unlike speakers, with NX you can have the sweet spot with you anywhere.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #44
Gear Head
 

Many people at NAMM this week are surprised we decided to price NX so low at 49$. Our answer to this is that NX is not meant to exclusive, rather inclusive. It is a new product category and we believe this is the most extraordinary tool we have ever created.

NX with camera only detection will be released by the end of next week. By the second quarter of this year we will be shipping the hardware tracking unit which will also be priced at affordable levels.

Also, you can expect soon NX music player, video player for IOS and Android as well as web based solutions for streaming and playing in browser.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #45
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Jeezo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by waves NX View Post
NX does not introduce any meaningful latency on the audio. same as a q10 or so...

For NX to work on your PC or Mac or any device we must have head tracking data. at this time we have two ways to do head tracking.

1. webcam camera. this needs proper lighting to work and camera needs to see one single face. so camera will work in distant range it can see your face.

2. Hardware head tracking unit. it is slightly larger then a AAA battery that is used to power it. it will work 40-50 hours of movement time. so if you are not wearing it it will turn to standby. The head tracker unit communicate with computer or phone or tablet via bluetooth BTE version 4 and above. no audio is going over BT just head tracking information. typical range of BT device should be 10 meeter radios from your device. This units allow you road freely, turn anywhere.

Unlike speakers, with NX you can have the sweet spot with you anywhere.
I'm not talking about audio latency , but system latency .

So basically you guyz created some that take in consideration mouvement but to work well you have to be face to face , and avoid of axes mouvement with webcam ..... ok

So you answered partially my question , the system has to be used for optimum usage , with the dedicated system .

Again , i'm just giving one point of view , of maybe a portion of potential users .
One of my jobs is to validate systems for set up seemless integration and i teach this to my students , those are questions that have to be asked , my style is "do no resolve problems , avoid creating them" .

What i'm saying is that options are important in this case not to get more options , but to be able to skip potential issues ... that's all .....
Old 23rd January 2016
  #46
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Jeezo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by waves NX View Post

Also, you can expect soon NX music player, video player for IOS and Android as well as web based solutions for streaming and playing in browser.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #47
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeezo View Post
I'm not talking about audio latency , but system latency .

So basically you guyz created some that take in consideration mouvement but to work well you have to be face to face , and avoid of axes mouvement with webcam ..... ok

So you answered partially my question , the system has to be used for optimum usage , with the dedicated system .

Again , i'm just giving one point of view , of maybe a portion of potential users .
One of my jobs is to validate systems for set up seemless integration and i teach this to my students , those are questions that have to be asked , my style is "do no resolve problems , avoid creating them" .

What i'm saying is that options are important in this case not to get more options , but to be able to skip potential issues ... that's all .....
if you are using the camera and you move away so camera does not see you. nothing drastic happens. you still hear the audio but the image has collapsed into a normal headphone sound with all the audio inside your head. once the camera will see you again it will regain your position in space and restore the NX sound.

With the hardware tracking device the experience is much better and smoother. I suggest you all consider the camera version as a demo of what is possible with the hardware tracking unit. Nevertheless if you are mixing or recording the camera version can be very useful.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #48
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Temptin's Avatar
Very interesting, and a GREAT price ($49), but please clarify:

Is this emulation? Using crosstalk, reverb, head transfer filters etc, to emulate a room.

Or is this sampling? Sampling the impulse response and EQ of a real room and applying it in realtime.

Or a combination of both?

You say it is "not based on a real room" and that it is "super clean", so I am guessing it's an emulation? But you also said it isn't a reverb, which makes me think it's a sampled IR.

I might pick it up if it's an emulation. I've already got the best room sampling (which is even used for 3D headphone mixes on BluRays, but I'll avoid mentioning its name since this is a Waves thread).

I am in the market for a clean emulation that gives a room feel without the boomy, colored sound of real speaker samples.

Also, would it be possible to hear the Waves NX result, or do we have to wait for the demo?

Thanks Waves!
Old 23rd January 2016
  #49
Gear Head
 

"Is this emulation? Using crosstalk, reverb, head transfer filters etc, to emulate a room.

Or is this sampling? Sampling the impulse response and EQ of a real room and applying it in realtime.

Or a combination of both?”


it is a model of an “ideal” room, a model of you inside that room and this model includes your body, head and ears. this model allow limited personalisation controls by setting your head radius ands ear azimuth.


"You say it is "not based on a real room" and that it is "super clean", so I am guessing it's an emulation? But you also said it isn't a reverb, which makes me think it's a sampled IR."

the room you hear is not a room that exists ( or if exist we have not been there…_)

this room was subject of tremendous research and is a subjective decision by all the people who developed this tool.

The NX room is unique in many ways including that i does not colour the sound and change image, but most importantly this room is unique in that it will be portable and the same experience you have in your room you can convey to another listener who is also using NX on his headphones.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #50
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Temptin's Avatar
Thanks for the great reply! This is getting very interesting! I am tired of the boomy/boxy room sound of real room samples, and I have been waiting for someone to do a clean, algorithmic room with all the beautiful clarity of headphones but all the spatial/panning/atmosphere help of a "room", so that I can do most of my headphone mixing with a "clean room" while doing occasional checks via colored room samples. Previous algorithmic room emulations/simulations in this arena have sounded pretty bad (mainly their room ambience), but I trust Waves to have nailed it at last. You don't do anything half-baked! Sounds like I will be buying this on launch day!

One more question: I don't have a webcam for head tracking, and doubt that I'll buy the head tracker unit. I assume I'll be getting the neutral head position sound. Is head tracking really necessary? I guess it'd be nice to get a sense of moving around for real, but the neutral position should be perfect and most balanced anyway, so what am I missing out on if I skip tracking?

One strong suggestion: Please buy a few pairs of the most popular headphone models and determine the average frequency response of each model, and create an "anti-color EQ" for those headphones. It's already available from Digital Speaker Calibration Software | Sonaworks and is also available in the other room sampling product I use. For instance, I mainly use AKG K701s because of their incredible detail and clarity, and the fact that they're pretty flat, but they sound even better with EQ correction. So do all headphones. So why not make Sonarworks obsolete by building in EQ curves for the 20 or so most popular headphones? Here's the list of Sonarworks ones, which is a great list of the most popular ones: Supported headphones - Sonarworks.

Headphone correction seems like a very logical fit for a room simulation product; to take the headphone color out of the picture and "normalize the playing field" for everyone.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #51
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The Sonarworks software hardly breaks the bank if you just buy the headphone calibration software.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #52
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It doesn't break the bank but Sonarworks is $60 for a plain and simple headphone EQ curve that belongs natively in Waves Nx.

If the goal is to provide a neutral room in Nx, then the omission of EQ is awful. My other room emulation software includes headphone EQs and they make a huuuuge difference in clarity when enabled.

I won't buy Sonarworks since I'd have to deal with another plugin manufacturer, license, user login, newsletter, updates, etc. Instead, I can just put a regular channel EQ after Nx and manually apply the curve appropriate to my headphones (I've got one for it), and save that as a preset.

But others are not as lucky as me in having the right curves. I am suggesting Waves bakes in curves for popular headphones to make their "room" model much more convenient and much more neutral for everybody.

The goal is neutral, high quality listening? Then a headphone EQ is vital for neutrality. Anyone who has heard what corrective EQ does for headphone clarity will know how important it is. It's like lifting the veil on the sound.

I hope Waves will provide it in an update, because everyone would benefit from it.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #53
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Temptin View Post
It doesn't break the bank but Sonarworks is $60 for a plain and simple headphone EQ curve that belongs natively in Waves Nx.

If the goal is to provide a neutral room in Nx, then the omission of EQ is awful. My other room emulation software includes headphone EQs and they make a huuuuge difference in clarity when enabled.

I won't buy Sonarworks since I'd have to deal with another plugin manufacturer, license, user login, newsletter, updates, etc. Instead, I can just put a regular channel EQ after Nx and manually apply the curve appropriate to my headphones (I've got one for it), and save that as a preset.

But others are not as lucky as me in having the right curves. I am suggesting Waves bakes in curves for popular headphones to make their "room" model much more convenient and much more neutral for everybody.

The goal is neutral, high quality listening? Then a headphone EQ is vital for neutrality. Anyone who has heard what corrective EQ does for headphone clarity will know how important it is. It's like lifting the veil on the sound.

I hope Waves will provide it in an update, because everyone would benefit from it.
I agree also! although this version of NX did not relate to headphones calibration ,we can and will certainly add this in the near future.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #54
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Temptin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by waves NX View Post
I agree also! although this version of NX did not relate to headphones calibration ,we can and will certainly add this in the near future.
You are wonderful, great to hear you will add headphone EQ to it. I love your enthusiasm too.

I will be counting down the days to release and try the demo as soon as it's out! I've been waiting for someone to do a great, algorithmic room and since it's by Waves I think this will finally be 'it'.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #55
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digital 1010's Avatar
Hi guys, am I missing something, is there a demo out now ? Ive looked on Waves site and can't see it - possible user error but......
Old 23rd January 2016
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digital 1010 View Post
Hi guys, am I missing something, is there a demo out now ? Ive looked on Waves site and can't see it - possible user error but......
"I will be counting down the days to release and try the demo as soon as it's out! I've been waiting for someone to do a great, algorithmic room and I think this will finally be 'it'. "

Look for it Thursday, demo and software release of version 1
Old 23rd January 2016
  #57
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Temptin's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by waves NX View Post
Look for it Thursday, demo and software release of version 1
Thanks, added to my calendar!
Old 23rd January 2016
  #58
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digital 1010's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by waves NX View Post
"I will be counting down the days to release and try the demo as soon as it's out! I've been waiting for someone to do a great, algorithmic room and I think this will finally be 'it'. "

Look for it Thursday, demo and software release of version 1
Cheers man, wanting to try it with HD650's and sonar works before to see how it comes out, Sonar works really works for me with the room i have so hoping this will add something more again.
Old 23rd January 2016
  #59
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parografik's Avatar
This may be obvious to everyone else, but will this simulate sound surround on a pair of stereo headphones? This would be very cool.

And to everyone else adding all the products you think that might be comparable, keep it coming. I've never even considered doing a realistic mix on a pair of headphones, but these tools would help me with balancing some arrangements.
Old 24th January 2016
  #60
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by parografik View Post
This may be obvious to everyone else, but will this simulate sound surround on a pair of stereo headphones? This would be very cool.

And to everyone else adding all the products you think that might be comparable, keep it coming. I've never even considered doing a realistic mix on a pair of headphones, but these tools would help me with balancing some arrangements.
it does 5.1 on headphone for real
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