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Kazrog KClip Mastering Clipper Released (VST, AU, AAX) Mac/Win Dynamics Plugins
Old 24th May 2015
  #91
I still feel entirely stupid when it comes to clippers, as I never quite understood them, vs say a standard limiter. I have an idea, but I could be way off. Limiters keep audio peaks down via gain reduction, basically turning down the volume at insanely fast rates. Where clippers just cut the peaks off. So limiting is a dynamic process of turning gain down and up, but clipping doesn't use any gain changes to control the peaks.

Is this correct? I feel even sillier asking this on a new product page, but no one better to ask than a developer

Thanks for any help.
Old 24th May 2015
  #92
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_04_04 View Post
I still feel entirely stupid when it comes to clippers, as I never quite understood them, vs say a standard limiter. I have an idea, but I could be way off. Limiters keep audio peaks down via gain reduction, basically turning down the volume at insanely fast rates. Where clippers just cut the peaks off. So limiting is a dynamic process of turning gain down and up, but clipping doesn't use any gain changes to control the peaks.

Is this correct? I feel even sillier asking this on a new product page, but no one better to ask than a developer

Thanks for any help.
This is me.

I purchased KClip. I've been using it and I like what I'm hearing, but I haven't a f***ing clue what I'm actually doing with it, haha. Even after reading the manual, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to be using it.

I've easily figured out countless HW/SW tools just by experimenting and this is the first one that's ever puzzled me and made me want to ask for help. I feel really stupid asking this, but any basic workflow pointers would be greatly appreciated (how would someone use it on a drum bus or stereo bus, for instance).

Any assistance - even basic step-by-step tips - would be greatly appreciated.
Old 24th May 2015
  #93
Gear Maniac
 

this:
Quote:
Limiting vs Clipping
by Kim Lajoie on July 7, 2009

Limiting is an extreme approach to compression. Where compression reduces the degree by which sounds can go louder than the threshold, limiting is designed to stop sounds from being any louder than the threshold at all. Limiters usually have simpler controls to compressors, but are functionally similar to compressors with high ratio and fast attack.
Limiters are useful for reducing peak level (the level that machines “hear”) of a sound without affecting the average level (the level that humans hear). This reduces the headroom that the sound needs so that it can be made louder without distorting.

The downside the using limiters is that they reduce the level in the same way that compressors do – by applying gain. That is, they turn down the volume. Ideally, a limiter does this fast enough that the transient peaks are reduced but the steady-state sound is not audibly affected. In many cases though, the gain reduction is audible. It can give the sound a soft, wooly character, or even a random tremolo effect if the threshold is too low. Often using a limiter reduces the power and impact of a sound. This effect is sometimes hidden because the limiter also increases the overall volume, making it more difficult to notice that the character of the sound is changed.
An alternative to limiting is clipping. Yes, this is the same clipping that usually engineers try to avoid when recording and processing audio. Most of the time clipping is undesirable, but in some situations it can be used deliberately and beneficially.

While limiting reduces the level of the transient peaks by turning down the volume (applying negative gain), clipping reduces the level of transient peaks by distorting them (decapitating the waveform and "soldering" the decapitated ends - TPT) . If you view the waveform of a clipped sound, you’ll see that the waveform looks like it’s had the tops and bottoms chopped off. This is distortion! However, if only the transient peaks are clipped, the clipping only occurs for a very short period of time, and is not very noticeable.

When this happens, the excess level in the transient peaks is transformed into upper harmonics. That is, the transients become noisier and dirtier. For some kinds of music, this can be a desirable alternative to reducing gain. The power and impact of the sound is often retained (or even enhanced!), but at the expense of fidelity.
-Kim.
Clipping introduces distortion : it alters the shape of the waveform and, Inexorably, of the sound timbre. it may sound good (especially on sound with noise like components - like drums - where it "brings" forward the sound while making it "phatter" : increase the lower portion of the audio while maintaining fixed peak level) or bad (you do NOT want to clip sounds with strong harmonic components - like piano).

Eventually, you'll have to train yourself to understand how and when to clip. when it is desirable and when not. when it is acceptable and goes-along with the texture of your audio - and when it sound like outright pure distortion (mind you - I found that things I perceived as pure distortion, were accepted as "musical" which was shocking to me, as it was commercial release).

The fresh thing about KClip is its clarity. I use clippers daily (free and commercial) and I can't remember using a clipper that clean (is it the x16 OS ? dunno)
Old 24th May 2015
  #94
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Old 24th May 2015
  #95
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Old 24th May 2015
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeaParTea View Post
I have the commercial since its inception
Too good, we're spoilt for choice
Old 24th May 2015
  #97
Gee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadfish View Post
This is me.

I purchased KClip. I've been using it and I like what I'm hearing, but I haven't a f***ing clue what I'm actually doing with it, haha. Even after reading the manual, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to be using it.
I thought I was the only one! It does sound good though
Old 24th May 2015
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mania View Post
Too good, we're spoilt for choice
Naaa.... "choice is an ILLUSION... created between those with power, and those without"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNnBLyV0Nm8



(Read: Choice is an illusion created by a perspective. We are never making
"choices", but rather we are acting in accordance to - or: upon - our nature : to
accumulate as much gear as we can )

BTTT, As much as like ClipShifter (and I use it A LOT) I immediately felt something
different with KClip. its the sound (and the x16 OS ?)

To MY ears, you can push it much further...and it would not distort/deteriorate in a perceivable manner.
Old 25th May 2015
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeaParTea View Post
Naaa.... "choice is an ILLUSION... created between those with power, and those without"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNnBLyV0Nm8



(Read: Choice is an illusion created by a perspective. We are never making
"choices", but rather we are acting in accordance to - or: upon - our nature : to
accumulate as much gear as we can )

BTTT, As much as like ClipShifter (and I use it A LOT) I immediately felt something
different with KClip. its the sound (and the x16 OS ?)

To MY ears, you can push it much further...and it would not distort/deteriorate in a perceivable manner.
Tbh I feel the same way about Audio Assault Klipfreak and Audiod3ck o-clip, the just seem to go so deep while being transparent. Haven't tried this but I'm guessing it's just as good.
Old 25th May 2015
  #100
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadfish View Post
This is me.

I purchased KClip. I've been using it and I like what I'm hearing, but I haven't a f***ing clue what I'm actually doing with it, haha. Even after reading the manual, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to be using it.

I've easily figured out countless HW/SW tools just by experimenting and this is the first one that's ever puzzled me and made me want to ask for help. I feel really stupid asking this, but any basic workflow pointers would be greatly appreciated (how would someone use it on a drum bus or stereo bus, for instance).

Any assistance - even basic step-by-step tips - would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your order, and I'm really sorry to hear that! I definitely don't want to confuse people with my software! There will be a YouTube tutorial as soon as time permits, but here's a quick rundown:
  1. Dial the Gain up to taste. You will most likely need to simultaneously back off the Output knob to avoid overages on your master buss.
  2. Once you have achieved the desired amount of clipping, make final adjustments to the Output knob until you have no (or very few) peaks going into the red on your master buss during the loudest portions of your session.
  3. Enable the Guard switch. Then, set the Ceiling control below 0dB. Many records are mastered at -0.2dB. I myself like to play it safe and go down to -0.3dB, as I have found that some consumer systems overload with masters that are leveled higher.

The signal path of the plugin goes as follows:
[input signal]->[* gain level]->[clipping process]->[* out level]->[guard process (if enabled)]->[* ceiling level]

The clipping process after the gain is the "main event" of the plugin. The guard process is actually a second clipper. The difference is, the guard is not oversampled - so it must be used very carefully.

Why is the guard needed? Theoretically, the clipping process itself shouldn't allow any overages, right? That is true inside the oversampled domain where the clipper operates, but once the oversampled clipping process returns its output back into the session sample rate, you will end up with intersample peaks, which effectively "hop" past the threshold due to the nature of the oversampling process itself (too big of a tangent to explain here.) This is why you have to adjust the Out level of the clipping process downward, and why it's a good idea to use the guard afterwards (just to catch any occasional overs that might still be there, and to ensure that no level escapes the Ceiling.

So, some caution is needed, because if you push into the guard, you will lose any benefits of the oversampled clipper happening before it, and you will get audible aliasing. However, with careful use, the occasional overage going into the guard a little bit will not hamper the fidelity of the audio to any audible degree. Other clippers handle this problem in various "automagic" ways, but all of them I tested against end up aliasing more than KClip, by a factor of 20 to 50dB! That said, I would like to make the process a bit simpler without sacrificing quality in future versions.

The other two controls are pretty self explanatory - the Quality control adjusts the amount of oversampling of the main clipping process. In most cases, you won't need to mess with it, but in a heavy session on an older CPU, or in a session at 96 kHz or above, you may want/need to lower it to 8x. The Softness control simply adjusts the amount of soft clipping before hard clipping of the signal occurs (also known as the "knee.")

When you soften the clipping process, the effect is audible in that you have a lesser prominence of upper order harmonics - which "softens" the sound a bit. On a master buss, I typically have this set at 0%, as I find hard clipping to be more audibly transparent on most source material. However, I could also envision situations where the soft clipping would help to tame a brittle mix. Where the soft clipper is most useful, to my ears, is for adding saturation to individual tracks in a mix. It's great on bass, vocals, and synths in particular. YMMV.

Thanks for your order, and sorry if this plugin is confusing! It is a bit geeky, but the results are great once you learn it.

Last edited by Kazrog; 25th May 2015 at 04:09 AM..
Old 25th May 2015
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mania View Post
Tbh I feel the same way about Audio Assault Klipfreak and Audiod3ck o-clip, the just seem to go so deep while being transparent. Haven't tried this but I'm guessing it's just as good.
This plugin is wonderful! I just used it on a dense rock mix and it beat all my usual limiters in it's clarity and transient depth while giving greater loudness. I tried my usual limiters and they all audibly squashed the transient details compared to Kclip. It served well in mixing duties too. Well done Kazrog!

Last edited by Zyzygis; 25th May 2015 at 06:40 AM..
Old 25th May 2015
  #102
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As a ReCabinet user 9.99$ was too good to pass up. However, if you guys want pure loudness then a good limiter is still a much more viable way to go. FabFilter Pro-L at my default settings (transparent algo, 700ms attack, 400ms release, transients unlinked,slow release linked) goes much much louder than the Kazrog clipper. NOTE: I've only had a few minutes of testing time but that's all it takes when I have a bunch of test sessions already ready to go and more than 10 years of experience in the clipper/limiter field (always searching for the "holy grail").

This is not surprising though. I've yet to find a pure clipper plugin that goes as loud as a good limiter. The obvious tradeoff is transient impact and detail but the best limiters are pretty damn impressive in this regard as well, not surprisingly because they clip the first few samples.

Also, I'm 99% sure my Prism Orpheus clips a lot better than the Kazrog clipper as I can usually match Pro-L loudness with the Orpheus converters.

The thing is, clipping a high end converter is NOT just pure clipping.. it's pushing all kinds of analogue components within the unit which ads a kind of "compression" and additional harmonic (and inharmonic) distortion which all ends up being perceived as louder.

So, to be honest, I felt the marketing blurb on the clipper was quite a bit exaggerated. Not sure the people at Kazrog have had a chance to truly hear mid/high end converters when they are clipped.

That being said, it is useful to have a 16x oversampling enabled clipper where you can freely control the shape of the clipping.. just don't expect "miracles". This is not a AD converter clipper emulation.

The purest in-the-box clipping I've ever heard was some guy from KvR who had made his own clipper that was 1024x oversampled (yes, you read that correctly) and had some fancy non-typical properties. It could go loud as heck without ANY nasty distortion (and when it distorted, it was "smooth" sounding distortion.. kind of how Klanghelms SDRR sounds even when you push it hard. Not harsh at all.. no buildup of nasty stuff in the 2-4kHz region that happens so easily). Unfortunately this was many years ago and I've since lost the audio examples. Probably I just remember them fondly.. this was after all at a time when Waves L2 (hardware) was the only game in town.
Old 25th May 2015
  #103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrog View Post
Thanks for your order, and I'm really sorry to hear that! I definitely don't want to confuse people with my software! There will be a YouTube tutorial as soon as time permits, but here's a quick rundown:
  1. Dial the Gain up to taste. You will most likely need to simultaneously back off the Output knob to avoid overages on your master buss.
  2. Once you have achieved the desired amount of clipping, make final adjustments to the Output knob until you have no (or very few) peaks going into the red on your master buss during the loudest portions of your session.
  3. Enable the Guard switch. Then, set the Ceiling control below 0dB. Many records are mastered at -0.2dB. I myself like to play it safe and go down to -0.3dB, as I have found that some consumer systems overload with masters that are leveled higher.

The signal path of the plugin goes as follows:
[input signal]->[* gain level]->[clipping process]->[* out level]->[guard process (if enabled)]->[* ceiling level]

The clipping process after the gain is the "main event" of the plugin. The guard process is actually a second clipper. The difference is, the guard is not oversampled - so it must be used very carefully.

Why is the guard needed? Theoretically, the clipping process itself shouldn't allow any overages, right? That is true inside the oversampled domain where the clipper operates, but once the oversampled clipping process returns its output back into the session sample rate, you will end up with intersample peaks, which effectively "hop" past the threshold due to the nature of the oversampling process itself (too big of a tangent to explain here.) This is why you have to adjust the Out level of the clipping process downward, and why it's a good idea to use the guard afterwards (just to catch any occasional overs that might still be there, and to ensure that no level escapes the Ceiling.

So, some caution is needed, because if you push into the guard, you will lose any benefits of the oversampled clipper happening before it, and you will get audible aliasing. However, with careful use, the occasional overage going into the guard a little bit will not hamper the fidelity of the audio to any audible degree. Other clippers handle this problem in various "automagic" ways, but all of them I tested against end up aliasing more than KClip, by a factor of 20 to 50dB! That said, I would like to make the process a bit simpler without sacrificing quality in future versions.

The other two controls are pretty self explanatory - the Quality control adjusts the amount of oversampling of the main clipping process. In most cases, you won't need to mess with it, but in a heavy session on an older CPU, or in a session at 96 kHz or above, you may want/need to lower it to 8x. The Softness control simply adjusts the amount of soft clipping before hard clipping of the signal occurs (also known as the "knee.")

When you soften the clipping process, the effect is audible in that you have a lesser prominence of upper order harmonics - which "softens" the sound a bit. On a master buss, I typically have this set at 0%, as I find hard clipping to be more audibly transparent on most source material. However, I could also envision situations where the soft clipping would help to tame a brittle mix. Where the soft clipper is most useful, to my ears, is for adding saturation to individual tracks in a mix. It's great on bass, vocals, and synths in particular. YMMV.

Thanks for your order, and sorry if this plugin is confusing! It is a bit geeky, but the results are great once you learn it.
Hi Shane,

Please, don't apologise. You've made a great sounding plugin and I'm very grateful for your assistance here - nice to learn something new. I'll be putting that to good use today on a couple of mixes.

Old 25th May 2015
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
The purest in-the-box clipping I've ever heard was some guy from KvR who had made his own clipper that was 1024x oversampled .


Is there a link to this super clipper? Or a name? I'd love to check it out.
Thank you
Old 25th May 2015
  #105
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
FabFilter Pro-L at my default settings (transparent algo, 700ms attack, 400ms release, transients unlinked,slow release linked) goes much much louder than the Kazrog clipper.
"goes much much louder than the Kazrog clipper" ?

I was intrigued by the above statement ... and I'm sorry, man... but it is
simply not entirely true. I've downloaded Pro-L demo... and did a quick and
dirty comparison according to your settings. and, well... it can get a LITTLE
louder where audio with a lot of low end is concerned (the audio that I
personally make), but certainly NOT "much much". 0.3dB-0.5dB louder if I
remember right. maybe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
The thing is, clipping a high end converter is NOT
just pure clipping.. it's pushing all kinds of analogue components within the
unit which ads a kind of "compression" and additional harmonic (and
inharmonic) distortion which all ends up being perceived as louder.
I thought "hi-end" converters should be uber-clean... so essentially, one could
add some kind of tube/tape compression effect before Kazrogs and get the
same effect... (haven't tried it though)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmanic View Post
just don't expect "miracles". This is not a AD converter clipper emulation.
One can't expect miracles with EVERYTHING. the miracle happens between our
two ears and as someone who been doing this for "more than 10 years of
experience in the clipper/limiter field (always searching for the 'holy grail')"
(me - like you), I say this is certainly something special, in VST land.
Old 25th May 2015
  #106
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Thread Starter
A few thoughts:
  • KClip is built on a pure DSP theory basis, not emulation of any particular hardware. Of course, different hardware emulation "flavors" are possible down the road (in addition to its present "neutral" state), and it's something I'd love to do.
  • The marketing isn't intended to mislead - quite the opposite - in fact, the oversampling implementation in KClip is better than what any embedded DSP hardware I'm aware of would be capable of in a practical setting. Intel CPUs are much faster. That said, if there is some particular flavor to the analog section of a unit, then that is a separate topic (see above.) A lot of engineers I know are clipping entirely in the digital domain over SPDIF for mastering applications, therefore bypassing the analog rails entirely.
  • If you need to go up to 1024x oversampling (or anywhere even close), something is (very likely) wrong with your oversampling implementation (in particular, the filter design.) If you want to geek out on oversampling theory, Dan Lavry's whitepaper is an excellent starting point.
  • Limiters may be more transparent than clippers on some material. YMMV.

Last edited by Kazrog; 25th May 2015 at 08:34 PM..
Old 25th May 2015
  #107
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by stinkyfingers View Post
this is a pretty bold statement if it is in regards to digital clipping.
i can't wait to try the demo...
I'm not aversed to trying 1024x, mind you. I'm just not convinced it would make an audible difference.
Old 25th May 2015
  #108
Okay, following Kazrog's assistance earlier in the thread I've been using KClip a lot today. I frickin' love this thing. My favourite purchase in a while. I've used it on three master tracks before Pro-L, which is the last plugin in the chain, for punchy hip hop beats and it sounds awesome. All sounding loud and fat (I'd say 'phat' but I'm not a rapper; nor am I from the streets - gotta keep it real, yo). Anyway, yeah, very happy with this purchase. I look forward to seeing more plugins from developer in the future.
Old 25th May 2015
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrog View Post
I'm not aversed to trying 1024x, mind you. I'm just not convinced it would make an audible difference.
Perhaps, at least theoretically, it should not be audible even to a bat however, as I witnessed with "Glue"(by cytomic), x64 oversampling produced more pleasant results in classical/orchestral pieces than lets say x16. There're also plenty of applications where I much prefer oversampling set to off.
Old 25th May 2015
  #110
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Beast View Post
Perhaps, at least theoretically, it should not be audible even to a bat however, as I witnessed with "Glue"(by cytomic), x64 oversampling produced more pleasant results in classical/orchestral pieces than lets say x16. There're also plenty of applications where I much prefer oversampling set to off.
Yeah, and I've heard great things about that plugin, to be fair. It really depends on how the oversampling is implemented. Number of times oversampling is one of the least meaningful metrics, but it's easier for the layman to grasp, similar to CPU clock speed.
Old 26th May 2015
  #111
Id advise using a ABX software to blind test when comparing things like oversampling modes...
Old 26th May 2015
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrog View Post
[LIST]
A lot of engineers I know are clipping entirely in the digital domain over SPDIF for mastering applications, therefore bypassing the analog rails entirely.
Bit off topic but would you mind to expand on this? I've never heard of this practice before.
Old 26th May 2015
  #113
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by SWAN808 View Post
Id advise using a ABX software to blind test when comparing things like oversampling modes...
This x1000. So much this.
Old 26th May 2015
  #114
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr XY View Post
Bit off topic but would you mind to expand on this? I've never heard of this practice before.
Not much to it, just overload the inputs to taste like any other clipping technique. Not sure what else I can say about it, pretty straightforward.
Old 28th May 2015
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazrog View Post
Not much to it, just overload the inputs to taste like any other clipping technique. Not sure what else I can say about it, pretty straightforward.
Kazrog, could you explain further, in this situation it will introduce aliasing or not? I mean digital clipping of converters.
Old 28th May 2015
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxFell View Post
Kazrog, could you explain further, in this situation it will introduce aliasing or not? I mean digital clipping of converters.
The sampler in modern converters works in the Mhz range (usually 5.6 or 6.1 Mhz for multiples of 44.1 or 48 Khz respectively) and the signal gets decimated down to the usual base sample rates so I guess it is a bit like doing 128x oversampling. That probably reduces aliasing.

Btw, the best converters should have enough headroom so as not to saturate as the signal approaches the equivalent of 0 dB FS. So I am not convinced by the argument that clipping mastering grade converters is about analogue saturation. I rather think it is about clean clipping. Cleaner than with cheap converters that saturated and clip in the analogue domain before reaching full scale.

Alistair
Old 28th May 2015
  #117
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If you could only rework the GUI for kclip and add some in/out/reduction metering...I'd be very, very grateful.

Very often I have to do mixes while travelling in absolutely, sonically unacceptable places on a tiny laptop (with no place for a mouse) and aiming for those nobs need sniper like skills and Buddha like patience. All of that to say is that, unfortunately, I have to give up on many excellent tools because of the non-practical GUI approach. I know for a fact that many people are in the same boat as I am in regards to the usability of GUIs.
Old 29th May 2015
  #118
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Beast View Post
If you could only rework the GUI for kclip and add some in/out/reduction metering...I'd be very, very grateful.

Very often I have to do mixes while travelling in absolutely, sonically unacceptable places on a tiny laptop (with no place for a mouse) and aiming for those nobs need sniper like skills and Buddha like patience. All of that to say is that, unfortunately, I have to give up on many excellent tools because of the non-practical GUI approach. I know for a fact that many people are in the same boat as I am in regards to the usability of GUIs.
Metering will be added. The knobs are calibrated for easy fine tuning. Also, you can click into the boxes below the knobs to type an exact value.
Old 29th May 2015
  #119
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Are there any advantages to TRIMMING via the gain knob ? (as it is oversampled)
Old 29th May 2015
  #120
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeaParTea View Post
Are there any advantages to TRIMMING via the gain knob ? (as it is oversampled)
Yes. Let's say you're one of those people that can't be bothered with pulling down all your faders as a group when the mix is going well into the red - maybe you're already getting more clipping out of KClip than you want when the gain is set at unity. Backing off will thus get you where you want to go.
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