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-   -   Which Neumann mic would suit my voice? (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/880068-neumann-mic-would-suit-my-voice.html)

gustav82 29th October 2013 09:56 AM

Which Neumann mic would suit my voice?
 
Hello!

As the title suggest I'm looking for a new microphone. Have mostly been leaning towards Neumann mics, like the U87, U89 and TLM 67. I've read a lot about them here on GS, and I'm not sure which would suit me the best.

Have some stuff at spotify were I sing:
Fire Eyed Ones by Fire Eye on Spotify
and soundcloud:
https://soundcloud.com/fire_eye

Not the greatest singer, nor songwriter perhaps.. But that I already know :)
If anybody would be kind enough to suggest a mic to me I would be very grateful!

Oh, and the pre will be an Neve 1073LB I think, if it matters. The songs in the links were recorded with a ADK A51, a cheap chinese U87 knock off I believe.

Long time reader, first post! :)

Thank you for your time!

John Willett 29th October 2013 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gustav82 (Post 9546796)
As the title suggest I'm looking for a new microphone. Have mostly been leaning towards Neumann mics, like the U87, U89 and TLM 67. I've read a lot about them here on GS, and I'm not sure which would suit me the best.

These three mics are quite different.

The U87 is the de-facto "standard" as it works OK with almost any voice and let's the vocal sit well in the mix.

The U89 has a much flatter response and is basically a TLM170 with a transformer. Some call this a "dark" mic. as it does not have the HF lift that the U87 does.

The TLM67 is a more modern mic. that tries to get the essence of the old U67 valve mic. in a modern version without the high self-noise that a valve mic. can have.

I would suggest, however, that you get these and try them for yourself to find out which works best for you.

And I would also look as some of the Gefell options as they share the Neumann heritage and some models still use the Georg Neumann M7 capsule - eg: UMT70S.

But it *is* important that you try all the options out for yourself to see which really works best for you - and then get that one.

gustav82 29th October 2013 10:31 AM

Thanks for the info!
The u87 is supposed to have a bump in the high mids, which may cause some voices to sound harsh, especially with the newer 87ai ones. Not sure were my voice fits though.
My goal with this thread is that an experienced engineer would have a listen to the songs and say, I would use this or that :)

jeremycox 29th October 2013 01:40 PM

I love my u89--think it would probably be more suitable for you given the way you like your vocals mixed. It's plenty bright still--just not in the same way the 87ai is. I was pleasantly surprised with your music--cool aesthetic.

Rolf Ebitsch 29th October 2013 04:45 PM

Hello Gustav,

listen to your soundcloud songs.... great, I love it.

Please try the Neumann M149. So much better than the U87.
I have both, among a lot of others.

I know, the M149 is much more high priced than the U87.
But definitive in a other league.

And with a Neve 1073 a no-brainer !

A really good price in europa, and all with soundsamples:
thomann.de neumann m149 tube mic

Lovely greetings,
R.

PatrickFaith 29th October 2013 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolf Ebitsch (Post 9547527)
Hello Gustav,

listen to your soundcloud songs.... great, I love it.

Please try the Neumann M149. So much better than the U87.
I have both, among a lot of others.

I know, the M149 is much more high priced than the U87.
But definitive in a other league.

And with a Neve 1073 a no-brainer !

A really good price in europa, and all with soundsamples:
thomann.de neumann m149 tube mic

Lovely greetings,
R.

+1 on the 149, also you can get them used fairly cheaply and they are very reliable. I also like my u67 clone (wunder cm67) for mixing my vocals with folk strings(I noticed you had some tangy folk strings in there they would really be mellowed out with a u67). I also have a tlm67 which gives a very clean sound, but for your type of vocals I think a u67 clone would be better(getting a used real u67 is real tricky, since almost all of them are modded and it's hard evaluating them when your starting out).

monster 30th October 2013 12:15 AM

get a Neumann kms 104 or a 149
everything in between is not worth it.

gustav82 30th October 2013 06:16 AM

Thanks for the replies! The M 149 is a little too expensive I think though.. I have a budget of roughly 4-5000$, and my intention was to get a 1073 pre (lb), and a new interface, and if I'm lucky also a compressor for that money.. :) U89 seem very nice!

etrella 30th October 2013 06:39 AM

Why Neumann??
I would get a
Manley Reference C OR Brauner Valvet X = 2800
BAE 1073 MP = $1200
Lynx Aurora 8 OR Apogee Rosetta 200 = Used $1000
Thank me later.
But really there are a lot of possibilities, would suggest to try first.

herecomesyourman 30th October 2013 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gustav82 (Post 9546796)
Hello!

As the title suggest I'm looking for a new microphone. Have mostly been leaning towards Neumann mics, like the U87, U89 and TLM 67. I've read a lot about them here on GS, and I'm not sure which would suit me the best.

Have some stuff at spotify were I sing:
Fire Eyed Ones by Fire Eye on Spotify
and soundcloud:
https://soundcloud.com/fire_eye

Not the greatest singer, nor songwriter perhaps.. But that I already know :)
If anybody would be kind enough to suggest a mic to me I would be very grateful!

Oh, and the pre will be an Neve 1073LB I think, if it matters. The songs in the links were recorded with a ADK A51, a cheap chinese U87 knock off I believe.

Long time reader, first post! :)

Thank you for your time!

I think you'd sound better with a Telefunken AK47 MKII on figure 8 mode than with just about any Neumann mic being currently made and that mic is less than $2,000.

Also a Bock iFET might be a good choice, or the Pearlman TM1. All of these mics would have a certain "body" to them...but I'd start with the Tele since it has figure 8 as a polar pattern you can choose.

gustav82 30th October 2013 08:53 AM

Definitely will check out the Telefunken one! Thanks for the suggestion.

Quote:

Why Neumann??
Well.. The hype I guess :)

Quote:

"Lynx Aurora 8 OR Apogee Rosetta 200 = Used $1000
Thank me later"
Very newbie-ish question: Is that the only box I need to buy, or do I need more? :) I've been set for a RME UCX for some time now.. but one of those might be the better choice?

Thanks again! (Btw I'm just starting to learn the whole quoting-thing, bare with me :)

herecomesyourman 30th October 2013 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gustav82 (Post 9549596)
Definitely will check out the Telefunken one! Thanks for the suggestion.


Well.. The hype I guess :)



Very newbie-ish question: Is that the only box I need to buy, or do I need more? :) I've been set for a RME UCX for some time now.. but one of those might be the better choice?

Thanks again! (Btw I'm just starting to learn the whole quoting-thing, bare with me :)

UCX is fine...very well made....but the AK47 MKII or Bock, or a Pearlman...etc...these mics will crush the "hype". No contest. And you're welcome...get ready to really go in depth with polar patterns, it'll be for the best to see what figure 8 can really do.

gustav82 30th October 2013 10:04 AM

Quote:

UCX is fine...very well made....but the AK47 MKII or Bock, or a Pearlman...etc...these mics will crush the "hype". No contest. And you're welcome...get ready to really go in depth with polar patterns, it'll be for the best to see what figure 8 can really do.
Figure 8, so that's the **** eh? :) The Neumanns got figure 8 as well right?

/G

herecomesyourman 30th October 2013 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gustav82 (Post 9549690)
Figure 8, so that's the **** eh? :) The Neumanns got figure 8 as well right?

/G

Not all of them and personally I'm just not a fan of the modern Nuemann line (For many reasons) ...Figure 8 is just...if you set up a small space pointed towards the corner of the room...with wood floor under you...or some small 3x3's of plywood to stand on...you can pull off reflections like you're in a decently treated room Vs the dead space of a foamed out closet which always kills the life of a signal.

People think "treatment" means making things dead.

A figure 8 pattern picks up in front and behind the mic...so the bounce of the sound reflecting back from the wall is introduced.

These things are ADDITIVE...they make a more 3D sound.

Cardioid is fine, but it takes more compression, etc to really get things present that way...and it's always less natural sounding to me (personally.)

claend 30th October 2013 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gustav82 (Post 9549690)
Figure 8, so that's the **** eh? :) The Neumanns got figure 8 as well right?

/G

Not necessarily.

Truth is since all mics present a slghtly different frequency response with defferent patterns is good to have options. They also interact more or less with the room depending on the pattern selected.

As a general rule... Use focussed patterns (Cardioid and smaller) in less than good sounding rooms.

More suggestions: Look into the Beesneez Producers and Tribute lines. Great sounding microphones

Also, maybe whatch the classfields to get a good deal... or even better, get in contact with a dealer and arrange some blind tests with all the mics.

Great music man!

regards,

herecomesyourman 30th October 2013 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claend (Post 9549800)
Not necessarily.

Truth is all mics present a different frecuency response with defferent patterns. They also interact more or less with the room depending on the pattern selected.

As a general rule... Use focussed patterns (Cardioid and smaller) in less than good sounding rooms.

More suggestions: Look into the Beesneez Producers and Tribute lines. Great sounding microphones (whatch the classfields maybe and get them cheap!)

Great music man!

regards,

See...I just don't totally agree with that...I would want cardioid on isolated instruments in a dense mix. Even if the room isn't treated, but avoiding standing waves (aiming towards a corner, etc.) and making sure there's some reflective surfaces you can get a lot of out even an untreated space.

Understanding spacial relationships is just as important as the room you happen to be in.

Now you have to be careful not to have an air conditioner on in the background, etc...if you're going to go cardioid there's not much point in spending more than $365 on a Shure SM7b if it's merely due to the space being awful and the engineer being inexperienced. Even then I'll take the SM7b over ANYTHING in Neumann's current line.

captainj 30th October 2013 11:58 AM

U87ai - bright, clear, lots of detail. Sounds great on lots of singers but not the best choice for singers prone to excessive sibilance
TLM67 - darker than U87ai but still has plenty of detail. Adds a bit more thickness to vocals than U87ai. I often prefer this vocal sound when solo'd but I often find the U87 vocals sit in the mix better.

You may also want to check out the TLM49, which to me sounds similar to TLM67 but with fixed cardioid polar pattern.

didier.brest 30th October 2013 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gustav82 (Post 9546796)
Oh, and the pre will be an Neve 1073LB I think, if it matters.

It matters much less than the microphone. So if you are on a budget limit constraint, you might choose a less expensive preamp so that to make available more money for the microphone.

jeremycox 30th October 2013 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gustav82 (Post 9549596)

Very newbie-ish question: Is that the only box I need to buy, or do I need more? :) I've been set for a RME UCX for some time now.. but one of those might be the better choice?

Thanks again! (Btw I'm just starting to learn the whole quoting-thing, bare with me :)

You'd also need some way to connect the converters to you computer. The RME is fine for your needs.

claend 30th October 2013 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by herecomesyourman (Post 9549815)
See...I just don't totally agree with that...I would want cardioid on isolated instruments in a dense mix. Even if the room isn't treated, but avoiding standing waves (aiming towards a corner, etc.) and making sure there's some reflective surfaces you can get a lot of out even an untreated space.

Understanding spacial relationships is just as important as the room you happen to be in.

Now you have to be careful not to have an air conditioner on in the background, etc...if you're going to go cardioid there's not much point in spending more than $365 on a Shure SM7b if it's merely due to the space being awful and the engineer being inexperienced. Even then I'll take the SM7b over ANYTHING in Neumann's current line.

With all due respect, AFAIK, you are not going to avoid standing waves by pointing a mic to a corner. You'll be facing all the same axial modes @ 45 degrees and then there's the tangetial and obliqual modes as well. Not to derrail the thread, only that I've seen some other posts of you saying the same.

Also, 8 figure patterns "reject only" 90 degrees from axis, which is very different to pick what's in front and in the back of the mic.

I was only trying to give a general rule of thumb to the OP about different patterns given we don't know anything about the space he's going to record in.

FWIW, I love fig 8 and Omni patterns provided I'm in a great sounding room and I can get the isolation the source requires for the project...


Regards,

claend 30th October 2013 12:37 PM

OP, try different mics in your room...

Maybe you end up preferring a supercardioid such as the 441 and save a lot of money in the process.

Hope all that was of any use.

Regards,

herecomesyourman 30th October 2013 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claend (Post 9549912)
With all due respect, AFAIK, you are not going to avoid standing waves by pointing a mic to a corner. You'll be facing all the same axial modes @ 45 degrees and then there's the tangetial and obliqual modes as well. Not to derrail the thread, only that I've seen some other posts of you saying the same.

Also, 8 figure patterns "reject only" 90 degrees from axis, which is very different to pick what's in front and in the back of the mic.

I was only trying to give a general rule of thumb to the OP about different patterns given we don't know anything about the space he's going to record in.

FWIW, I love fig 8 and Omni patterns provided I'm in a great sounding room and I can get the isolation the source requires for the project...


Regards,

What you do is avoid being directly at a 45 degree angle. You start at the corner and clap your hands sweeping left to right until you find the best transient response by ear. Shift your mic in figure 8 accordingly.

Then you try to see if you need more reflective surfaces (IE something to stand on) or LESS...(IE maybe some blankets behind you to diffuse things a bit.) Maybe both are appropriate if the walls are too reflective and you're standing on a thick carpet.

I've built room treatments, and you can get similar results with a bit of know how, but standing waves from facing a wall dead on...or a dead closet with a cardioid mic picking up no reflections both sound pretty boring-dead-as-a-doornail to me.

Will all due respect, I just simply prefer the scenario described above greatly to using a cardioid only LDC. Every single time, in a myriad of different scenarios, it has simply ALWAYS sounded more natural, open, and big to me. All the more so if I'm in a real studio with a treated room. (which we both can agree we really enjoy.) =)

YMMV, but mine hasn't in this regard.

Now it's a bit more work...I won't argue that, but it's totally worth it...even if you're budget for room treatment is less than $50.

didier.brest 30th October 2013 12:51 PM

You certainly do not need a separate converter. The ones integrated in the computer audio interface (RME, Motu, et al.) are good enough. You might also find that the integrated preamps in these intefaces are good enough also. A dream (which most often means vey expensive) mic-preamp association often proposed in audio forums is Neumann M 149 and Fearn VT-2. If you want to listen to how a Fearn VT-2 sounds different from the preamps of the RME Fireface 400 preamps (same preamps like in Fireface UC, UCX, UFX and in Micstasy the RME preamp used by many classical music professionals), go here(piano, Schoeps MK 21), here (piano and voice, ribbon microphones M 160 and M 130) and here (piano, Beyer M 130). Wit a hot output microphone, like the M 149, the preamp influence is still much less than with a low sensitivity microphone like any passive ribbon microphone, for instance the M 130 and the M 160 used in these samples.

herecomesyourman 30th October 2013 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claend (Post 9549914)
OP, try different mics in your room...

Maybe you end up preferring a supercardioid such as the 441 and save a lot of money in the process.

Hope all that was of any use.

Regards,

That's another good pick like an SM7b in the dynamic range...maybe a might better for vocals overall. Solid. kfhkh

Plush 30th October 2013 01:07 PM

Can't recommend any mic for you. YOu will have to do the work yourself.

Visit a showroom or buy the mics you think you might like with a return privilege.

The worst mistake you can make is to take random advice here on GS.

You have to use it yourself.

Get to work on the telephone lining up your list of demo mics to be sent out to the "artiste."

claend 30th October 2013 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by herecomesyourman (Post 9549924)
What you do is avoid being directly at a 45 degree angle. You start at the corner and clap your hands sweeping left to right until you find the best transient response by ear. Shift your mic in figure 8 accordingly.

Then you try to see if you need more reflective surfaces (IE something to stand on) or LESS...(IE maybe some blankets behind you to diffuse things a bit.) Maybe both are appropriate if the walls are too reflective and you're standing on a thick carpet.

I've built room treatments, and you can get similar results with a bit of know how, but standing waves from facing a wall dead on...or a dead closet with a cardioid mic picking up no reflections both sound pretty boring-dead-as-a-doornail to me.

Will all due respect, I just simply prefer the scenario described above greatly to using a cardioid only LDC. Every single time, in a myriad of different scenarios, it has simply ALWAYS sounded more natural, open, and big to me. All the more so if I'm in a real studio with a treated room. (which we both can agree we really enjoy.) =)

YMMV, but mine hasn't in this regard.

Now it's a bit more work...I won't argue that, but it's totally worth it...even if you're budget for room treatment is less than $50.

Yes, I know what you mean. But you are still confusing Room Modes with flutter echoes. Completely different problem scenario, completely different approach to get over it.

But this wasn't a thread about acoustics,so I'll stop it there.


Good for you that you found a method that works in your world, that's what engineering is ultimately about.

Regards,

Carlos

John Willett 30th October 2013 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plush (Post 9549953)
Can't recommend any mic for you. YOu will have to do the work yourself.

Visit a showroom or buy the mics you think you might like with a return privilege.

The worst mistake you can make is to take random advice here on GS.

You have to use it yourself.

kfhkh

Basically, what I said at the start.

gustav82 30th October 2013 06:39 PM

Thanks a lot for your inputs! I will do some serious thinking. Leaning towards a used u87 for the moment.. :)
I'm upgrading my whole studio, and this will hopefully be one of my best investments..

Rolf Ebitsch 31st October 2013 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gustav82 (Post 9550771)
Leaning towards a used u87 for the moment.. :)

It sounds like , you know this from the beginning of this thread ;)

R.

herecomesyourman 31st October 2013 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by claend (Post 9549969)
Yes, I know what you mean. But you are still confusing Room Modes with flutter echoes. Completely different problem scenario, completely different approach to get over it.

But this wasn't a thread about acoustics,so I'll stop it there.


Good for you that you found a method that works in your world, that's what engineering is ultimately about.

Regards,

Carlos

Flutter Echoes can be a problem took, but standing waves can also occur, it depends on the room.

But yes, it very much so has proven to be more effective. Also considering who taught me that technique to start is a pro with more hit records than I can count...it's not something I really question anymore, rather I seek to make the most of it when I go in that direction.