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-   -   pt le, running out of tracks ? (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/rap-hip-hop-engineering-and-production/71107-pt-le-running-out-tracks.html)

halfguard 18th May 2006 04:23 PM

pt le, running out of tracks ?
 
im doing this one track now where im already at 30 tracks. ive got 5 mcs on this track so ive never had this problem before. i know about the ptle 48 track option. i might do that later but i cant right now. every mc has 4 mono tracks. 1 panned left, one right , one down the middle and one adlib track. i was thinking i could bus those 4 tracks to one track and that would free up 3 tracks for me. is this common. i usually dont record the mcs, but know im starting to more and more and mixing my own stuff aswell. thanx for any help.

s.d.finley 18th May 2006 05:44 PM

You could try submixing each MC as a stereo track, that will free up a little, and still keep your panning....keep the other session, just in case you need to go back and re-tweek.

sdf

Polyphony 18th May 2006 06:03 PM

hey
 
well you could also try mixing the beat down to 2 track. However, keep the beat session available if you ever want to tweek stuff later. But as long as you get the artists vocal in time with the beat you could always line them up after.

dtheone 18th May 2006 07:00 PM

You can also try using Digital Performer, Logic Pro, Nuendo or Cubase Sx and free yourself from being tied to unspectacular hardware and software limitations.

Mudnoc 18th May 2006 07:12 PM

2006 is the year of the Adlibs!!!!
 
I usually do the beat summing option (since that frees up alot of tracks) Of course as stated before, keep the session in case you need to tweak or do some editing to the music.... Here lately I have cats bringing over two track beats and I still will run out of tracks.... It's seems like 2006 is the year of the adlib...(Thanks Jeezy).... Everybody wants to stack their vocals 3 times then wants 4 tracks for adlibs.... I can understand if the song requires it but most times it doesn't.... Alot of times I try to suggest what is needed...but at the end of the day "they" are the client and "they" are paying me for a service.... so whatever..

jazzy655 18th May 2006 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfguard
im doing this one track now where im already at 30 tracks. ive got 5 mcs on this track so ive never had this problem before. i know about the ptle 48 track option. i might do that later but i cant right now. every mc has 4 mono tracks. 1 panned left, one right , one down the middle and one adlib track. i was thinking i could bus those 4 tracks to one track and that would free up 3 tracks for me. is this common. i usually dont record the mcs, but know im starting to more and more and mixing my own stuff aswell. thanx for any help.

this is why i left ptle 2 years ago. best thing i ever did. not to talk trash about your system but it's tough to do a modern day pop song (meaning popular music i.e rap r&b) with only 32 tracks.

haha, we regularly fill up almost 30 tracks for just vocals on r&b stuff with all the stacking and stuff. i'd seriously consider at least looking at another daw. SX was the one I chose, and I can tell you even if I had $1,000,000 to sink into a studio, i'm positive I wouldn't get a pt HD system. Nuendo and cubase are awesome. fast fast fast editing. and to me it feels like steinberg was looking at protools when they designed SX. ymmv

cynic one 18th May 2006 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtheone
You can also try using Digital Performer, Logic Pro, Nuendo or Cubase Sx and free yourself from being tied to unspectacular hardware and software limitations.

never heard it said better....nuendo / sx with a couple of UAD cards, waves/urs/voxengo plugs, and a fast computer and you'll be fine.

dtheone 18th May 2006 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cynic
never heard it said better....nuendo / sx with a couple of UAD cards, waves/urs/voxengo plugs, and a fast computer and you'll be fine.

Oh no doubt, My Uad card arrives today! Definitley got waves, Izotope plugs, haven't played with voxengo stuff yet.

Organizing my plugs in Nuendo seems to be a bit of a task but good lord is it stable as hell! I came from the other side (pro tools LE 7 and digi 002r) and am happy as all hell. If pro tool LE had better hardware counterpart and no track limitation; I wouldn't have gone anywhere. Paying upward of 15 - 20k to do the same thing logic pro and nuendo do with your choice of low - mid or hi end hardware is absolutley ridiculous.
Steinberg definitley has it right with Nuendo and so does Apple with Logic pro. I am also a fan of Digital performer. Cubase SX hasn't been stable for me, the last great version of cubase was vst 5.1r2

halfguard 18th May 2006 09:51 PM

i hear what everyone is saying, but......i like pro tools. its the only daw ive ever had and i know my way around it pretty well. the track thing is annoying but i can get the upgrade to 48 tracks if it becomes a constant problem. i know sx,logic, dp and sonar are all great programs, but i still like pt.

Polyphony 18th May 2006 09:58 PM

hey
 
look use what your comfortable with. Nuendo/sx and all those other programs all have their strengths however, the one strength they don't have is multiple play lists.

this may be something you are not doing and would want to consider. create a new playlist for each take then comp them together. Saves tracks!!

dtheone 19th May 2006 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfguard
i hear what everyone is saying, but......i like pro tools. its the only daw ive ever had and i know my way around it pretty well. the track thing is annoying but i can get the upgrade to 48 tracks if it becomes a constant problem. i know sx,logic, dp and sonar are all great programs, but i still like pt.

That's coo, nobodys knockin u, just making suggestions. 48 tracks is also limited compared to most DAW's in the same price range but it's cool you have that option. 495.00 extra though...........ouch!

When in rome u must do as the romans. When I gotta rock pro tools in the big budget studio I have no problems whatsoever with tracks because they have HD systems. If i have to do any work at home, it's gonna be the m-audio m-powered and the client is going to have to pay for it along with whatever m-audio soundcard I request. My 2 issues with PTLE and PTLE M-powered are the track limitations and being tied down to specific hardware. If they eliminated those two things, everybody and they mother would be rockin PTLE 7. I love the software, everything is logically laid out. Limitations **** up their whole game. I'd go so far as to say that i'd pay the 495.00 for 96 mono/stereo. But they are a far way away from that.

I'm getting a mac mini core duo just to do what I have to do with PTLE M-powered. Throw that joint on the latptop with the transit usb for the train, plane or cab rides, finito.

I would suggest going on the DUC forums (official digidesign forums), Shane has a workaround for getting extra out of the 32 track limit, I believe he uses ableton live re-wired to ptle to do it; other than that, just read don't ask questions because there are some real assholes on that site, you can tell them i said so; lol.

IMO @ the DUC Shane is the only one that knows his **** inside and out and every trick in the book when it comes to PTLE and isn't arrogant in his approach.

Good Luck

Dan DeTora 19th May 2006 07:28 AM

do the mc's vocal tracks overlap each other? if not, record all leads to the same track, adlibs to the same track, etc...

even if they do overlap, at most you'll need 8 tracks for vocals... just alternate each set.

come mix time, just mult each mc's 4 tracks to their own aux tracks.

F Major 20th May 2006 06:46 PM

if the emcees dont over lap and they have the same stack count for vocals, just assign each emcee's layer to the same voice in PT. People dont realize that you can assign muliple tracks to the same voice so long as they dont play at the same time.

Dan DeTora 21st May 2006 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F Major
if the emcees dont over lap and they have the same stack count for vocals, just assign each emcee's layer to the same voice in PT. People dont realize that you can assign muliple tracks to the same voice so long as they dont play at the same time.

only in TDM... dude is using LE, which uses auto voicing.

Shan 21st May 2006 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfguard
im doing this one track now where im already at 30 tracks. ive got 5 mcs on this track so ive never had this problem before. i know about the ptle 48 track option. i might do that later but i cant right now. every mc has 4 mono tracks. 1 panned left, one right , one down the middle and one adlib track. i was thinking i could bus those 4 tracks to one track and that would free up 3 tracks for me. is this common. i usually dont record the mcs, but know im starting to more and more and mixing my own stuff aswell. thanx for any help.

Use Ableton Live to stream extra audio tracks into PT LE Aux tracks via ReWire. Then you can continue to work adding whatever plugins and routing needed on your Aux tracks.

Basically you want to consolidate a track in PT LE from the session start. This consolidated wav will be used in Ableton Live directly from the PT LE Audio folder. You will then stream this track into an Aux track in PT LE using ReWire. You will now basically have as many tracks as your CPU will allow. Hope that helps.

It's an old trick we PT LE guys have been using for years. heh

Shane

Shan 21st May 2006 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dtheone
I would suggest going on the DUC forums (official digidesign forums), Shane has a workaround for getting extra out of the 32 track limit, I believe he uses ableton live re-wired to ptle to do it; other than that, just read don't ask questions because there are some real assholes on that site, you can tell them i said so; lol.

IMO @ the DUC Shane is the only one that knows his **** inside and out and every trick in the book when it comes to PTLE and isn't arrogant in his approach.

Good Luck

I just read this after I posted above. heh But like dtheone said, use Ableton Live for now until you get the 48 track version going.

And there are even ways get get over that ridiculous 48 track stuff in which you can only have a combination of mono or stereo up to the 48 track limit. It will really do 96 if you have 48 stereo but some of the bean counters at Digi came up with this 'limited' concept. But we always have workarounds. If you want more than 48 tracks in LE you can split a stereo track by sending them to two mono Aux tracks. And now that we have 32 busses this will give you quite a few more tracks past the 48 point. This method will give you around 70 tracks in a regular mix including enough busses for Aux returns and parallel processing etc.

Hope that helps.

Shane

BigAl 21st May 2006 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halfguard
i hear what everyone is saying, but......i like pro tools. its the only daw ive ever had and i know my way around it pretty well. the track thing is annoying but i can get the upgrade to 48 tracks if it becomes a constant problem. i know sx,logic, dp and sonar are all great programs, but i still like pt.

Why don't you just bounce some of those tracks and keep what you have? If you really really like to use PT, why not just go ahead and put a nice down payment on a full blown PT HD? Just have it financed. A lot of people will not work without PT. That's how it is with some people, but I would just bounce some of those tracks down first. That's just me though because I like working OTB anyways.jkthtyrt

Lawrence 21st May 2006 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyphony
look use what your comfortable with. Nuendo/sx and all those other programs all have their strengths however, the one strength they don't have is multiple play lists. this may be something you are not doing and would want to consider. create a new playlist for each take then comp them together. Saves tracks!!

Huh?

Quote:

(from another forum) when you are comping with playlists the idea is to create a playlist for each take and also a "master edit" playlist and move the pieces up to that one.
That seems like a lot of work. Before you continue spreading misinformation about Steinberg daws "lack of strength" let me explain my confusion.

SX/Nuendo has "stacked" recording which is the easiest way to comp tracks I've ever seen. Maybe I got the "playlist" thing wrong?

There's a whole 'nother world out there dude.

Lawrence

halfguard 21st May 2006 07:40 PM

i dont have live.......im just going to just bus my 4 vocal tracks down to one for now. thanx for all the help.

dtheone 21st May 2006 09:09 PM

Halfguard, Shanes technique is foolproof. Use Live, it is a very powerful and evolving program. Live by itself as an application is quite incredible, I just got around to fooling around with it and i'm liking it alot. I'm an acid pro junkie but i'm liking live alot these days.

Shane, I forgot it was you who told me about gearslutz! Thanks! I like it here alot.

I'm using Nuendo 3 and just got that UAD card you suggested to me long ago. I do like Digidesigns pultec bundle better (Uad doesn't have the Eqh-2) The eqh-2 is instant gratification for me. I haven't learned how to program the Uad Pultec bundle (i just got it three days ago) eqp-1a. I like the less is more approach with the eqh-2.
So I'm keeping my Ilok plugs, because I foresee M-powered on my mac mini rig.

Halfguard, again, explore the possibilites with live. You might like it better for programming your rhythms and use your PTLE tracks for the vocal stacks. I see that you are doing alot of reggaeton, the most succesful people to have recorded reggaeton have done it in fruityloops (the rhhythms at least) fruityloops is a DAW for many. I like this program too for it's xox style drum programming (made famous by roland) I believe fruityloops shows up as a rewire device in PTLE 7.
Utilize the rewire technology, it'll make life alot simpler if you're dead set on PTLE 7 as your daw and want to squeeze more tracks out of it.

Polyphony 21st May 2006 09:55 PM

wow....
 
ok....the way I use playlists is very simple....basically what it does is allow you to take multiple takes without having to add a new track and then having to change the I/O on the track blabla bla. Then when your comping you just make a new playlist (on the same track) label it 'Comp' then just pick an choose(copy/paste) what you want out of the multiple takes....

I'm not misleading people why would I do that....I use protools everyday....yea there are probably things I don't know...but who doesn't have stuff to learn about making records....
anyways hope this clears up what I was trying to explain....sometimes I don't have time to complete my thought cause I work in a commercial studio and we don't get much time off....apologies!!hittt


don't think you understand playlists Lawence....all I said was for him to use what he was comfortable with...DUDE! And yes we have people bring in their SX/Nuendo and it's not nearly as quick as PT's when it come to live recording off the floor and then 'quickly' be ready for multiple takes....

Lawrence 22nd May 2006 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polyphony
ok....the way I use playlists is very simple....basically what it does is allow you to take multiple takes without having to add a new track and then having to change the I/O on the track blabla bla. Then when your comping you just make a new playlist (on the same track) label it 'Comp' then just pick an choose(copy/paste) what you want out of the multiple takes....

If you really understood how Nuendo/SX worked I wouldn't have to be here correcting your misinformation.

Quote:

don't think you understand playlists Lawence....all I said was for him to use what he was comfortable with...DUDE!
No... you said.. (which caused me to reply)

Quote:

...the one strength they don't have is multiple play lists...
... which was misleading. Nuendo doesn't need PT style playlists.

Quote:

And yes we have people bring in their SX/Nuendo and it's not nearly as quick as PT's when it come to live recording off the floor and then 'quickly' be ready for multiple takes....
That statement tells me either you and/or the people who brought Nuendo/SX into your studio did not know how to operate it properly or else you just made that up.

Please read the following carefully...

You don't have to do ANYTHING to "quickly be ready for multiple takes" in Nuendo/SX. Nada, nothing, zip. Ask someone else if you don't believe me. Tell me exactly what "preparation" did you have to do with Nuendo to prepare for multiple takes?

I'm really curious to know because...

It's designed exactly for that out of the box. If you've worked with it as you claim you should already know that. This is exactly why it doesn't need playlists. You can record a live band onto (say) 16 tracks, go back to the beginning and do it all again on the same tracks without doing anything else and have both takes available for comping immediately. IMMEDIATELY. Obviously, you'd want the drummer playing to a click track in that case.

Every time you hit stop and record another take (or cycle through a loop while recording) the new take is placed on the same track with the first take, either on top of it or in a "lane" directly under it. There is nothing to do. NOTHING.

There is no need to change hardware inputs or copy, paste, move anything or create anything for the new takes or any such nonsense when recording multiple takes in Nuendo or SX. You can keep recording takes on the same track until your disk space runs out by simply hitting record.

Every previous take is directly "under" the last take and never recorded over or erased unless you erasei it. To view all the takes for comping you click a little icon which opens up LANES in the track. Ok, that takes 1/2 a second. Each of the 25-30-40-100 takes will appear in that single track in their own lane for auditioning, editing, splitting to make your composite audio.

Now tell me how (as you stated) can "PT be quicker preparing for multiple takes" than "doing nothing"? Nothing.

Please stop spreading misinformation.

Tell me, what happens in PT when you record onto a track where audio already exists? Does it go to this "playlist"? Is it erased? Where does it go?

Lawrence

Polyphony 22nd May 2006 12:44 AM

whoa
 
ok I'm obviously not explaining myself properly.....but I'm not going to argue with you....what your explaining is loop recording or non destructive recording....I'm trying to explain PLAYLISTS and how to comp using PLAYLISTS....anyway dude get over the D*CK swinging contest

Polyphony 22nd May 2006 12:45 AM

You win
 
ok....you're soooo much more knowledgable.......

Polyphony 22nd May 2006 01:01 AM

yea
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence
Tell me, what happens in PT when you record onto a track where audio already exists? Does it go to the "playlist"? Is it erased? Where does it go?

Nuendo's audio stays right there in the track with the new audio. Get it now?

Lawrence


I get it....and in answer to you questions you can use PT's in Destructive record or Non destructive record....so it almost does the same thing as SX/Nuendo in those regards....you're completely missing this playlist thing..and it is obviously getting you heated....chill out we are all learning here ..so I would suggest that you read up on it....or better yet download PT free....and when you do ...in the edit window you can see your track names right beside each name there is a little up/down arrow....click on that and you'll see duplicate or NEW ....the NEW simply removes the current audio off the screen an places it in your audio regions bin....then you can continue to click on the arrows and scroll through your takes....guess it's kind of hard to explain....but dam....I give up....just use it...then you'll realize that my 'INFORMATION' is not 'MISLEADING'

Lawrence 22nd May 2006 01:24 AM

Let me back up.

I'm not heated. I actually had already erased part of that reply you quoted because it seemed rather harsh to me also when I read it.

I apologize if my post offended you but I was trying to convey why Nuendo doesn't need playlists for comping and why anyone who thinks that's a "missing" feature would be wrong.

I stand by my statement that if you guys had trouble "preparing" for multiple takes in Nuendo then you simply didn't have enough experience with it because there is simply no preperation required. I also stand by my belief that comping tracks in Nuendo/SX is far quicker and easier than in any version of PT.

Again... as soon as you hit stop the tracks are ready to comp. While a PT user is "creating playlists" so he can comp multiple takes the Nuendo user is busy comping tracks.

Here's a graphic display...

http://www.japan.steinberg.net/produ..._recording.jpg

This is one single track in a SX project. Synth bass. Four takes ready for comping. The only thing the user had to do to record those 4 takes was hit record and let it loop 4 times or record four takes manually. He clicked that little blue button to see all the takes in lanes (before or after recording, either way).

If collapsed to one (normal) lane the take on top wil play. The other 3 are underneath. In that single lane mode you can cycle through each take by right clicking on a take and selecting a take from a pop-up menu. That selected take moves to the top and plays. Or just use lanes and move them around or mute them.

He didn't move, cut, copy or paste the takes there. They were placed there during recording. If he had looped 100 times there would be 100 takes in 100 lanes on that one track ready for comping. The previous takes don't get moved anywhere when you record another take, they stay right there on the track.

The track on the bottom (green) plays by default. If you don't like bar 4 of that track, split it and mute it and then bar 4 on take 3 (or whatever take is directly above it) plays instead during that bar. Etc. etc. When you are done comping collapse the lanes into a single "normal" lane. All the "unused" parts of takes remain there unless you manually delete them. Even then they still remain in the audio pool and can be dragged back into that or any other track later.

If you want to audition a take you can solo/play it with the mouse. They are all named as you can clearly see. Want to hear an entire take as it was recorded along with the song? Drag it down to the bottom lane and play the song section. You can also do that while the song is playing.

If you mute the bottom take (even while the song is playing) the take above it will play instead, so to audition all four, loop the section and mute them one at a time with the mouse one each pass.

This is why Nuendo doesn't need PT style playlists for comping and why I felt your comment about it "lacking a strength" (i.e. not having PT Style playlists) was general misinformation. Besides, the play order track is certainly a playlist anyway so I suppose Nuendo does have a playlist after all.

I apologize for the harsh tone of that other text you read before I deleted it.

Good luck to you man.

Lawrence

Polyphony 22nd May 2006 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lawrence
Let me back up.


I apologize if my post offended you but I was trying to convey why Nuendo doesn't need playlists for comping and why anyone who thinks that's a "missing" feature would be wrong.

Lawrence


I just said that it didn't have playlist....I didn't say you couldn't comp...lol....thats why forms are hilarious....

Polyphony 22nd May 2006 01:39 AM

anyway
 
bumpkin for all you gearslutz out there....this is how Lawence and I do...LOL

halfguard 22nd May 2006 04:02 AM

thanx again for all the help to everyone. dtheone, im going to get fruity loops if just for the drum grid. i know most reggaeton producers use this. i still like my mpc but fl will be a nice addition, and its cheap. ive messed with the live demo, and while it really nice, im not that crazy about the sound quailty. maybee ill check it out again. actually, i think it even has a drum grid liike fl. thanx again.

bigdoghat 31st May 2008 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shan (Post 726931)
But we always have workarounds. If you want more than 48 tracks in LE you can split a stereo track by sending them to two mono Aux tracks. And now that we have 32 busses this will give you quite a few more tracks past the 48 point. This method will give you around 70 tracks in a regular mix including enough busses for Aux returns and parallel processing etc.

Hope that helps.

Shane

Hey Shane, could you be more specific about how to get around the 32 track count - I thought I understood what you meant - what I thought you meant was to bus an inactive track to an aux and I just tried it out and of course LE won't let me bus an inactive track. I run out of tracks almost every time and end up with sounds sharing tracks and eq bypass automating, it's crazy and very annoying. If I could get around this I would very happy. Thanks