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-   -   Analog vs Digital...the last word (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/648674-analog-vs-digital-last-word.html)

dhollmusik 14th September 2011 10:45 PM

Analog vs Digital...the last word
 
...not from me obviously, but from a certain Bob Moog:


"It's called 'analog' because the way the electricity vibrates in the circuit is analogous to the way sound vibrates in an acoustic instrument. You get a smooth waveform that's more natural and more of what our ears expect than what you get out of digital circuitry."


He goes on to say you can't simulate this 'vibration' because our ears will always be able to tell the difference on some fundamental level (regardless of what measuring equipment might say).

This is why our ears are so special, why we even have a subjective love for music.

The full article is here:


A Conversation with Bob Moog: Analog vs. Digital Sound Generation | Moog Music Inc

blinky909 14th September 2011 10:47 PM

nothing like a sales pitch, huh?

cdog 14th September 2011 10:52 PM

Even if hes wrong, hes right. Hes Bob ****ing Moog.

Susceptor 14th September 2011 10:53 PM

The ear converts the sound afterwards to the frequency domain and that it sends that info to the brain.

Furthermore, digital will get converted (and filtered) to analogue, so in the end it will be the same shit.

disco judas 14th September 2011 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Susceptor (Post 7032220)
digital will get converted (and filtered) to analogue, so in the end it will be the same shit.

Are you sure about this? jkthtyrt

Susceptor 14th September 2011 11:04 PM

Well... what exactly does the DAC do? It needs to convert back to analogue for you to hear it, so the voltage will wiggle the woofer and twitters.

niklasni1 14th September 2011 11:05 PM

Yeah, sound from a digital source run through a digital->analogue converter isn't really analogue at all. Your speakers know the difference and aren't vibrating when you run digital sound through it, they're jumping in tiny little steps directly from one position to the other whilst sticking their middle finger up at physics. Believe the hype and get adjusting that 2" tape deck of yours.

djugel 14th September 2011 11:06 PM

it's the same **** to a dip****.

Estin 14th September 2011 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdog (Post 7032216)
Even if hes wrong, hes right. Hes Bob ****ing Moog.

pppfffttt man can't even make a synth that stays in tune. heh


Quote:

Originally Posted by blinky909 (Post 7032199)
nothing like a sales pitch, huh?

first thing i thought after reading the quote.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Susceptor (Post 7032263)
Well... what exactly does the DAC do? It needs to convert back to analogue for you to hear it, so the voltage will wiggle the woofer and twitters.

speaks truth. Its all analogue by the time its coming out of speakers.

Susceptor 14th September 2011 11:11 PM

But I mean it's all bad because although it's analogue, it wiggles, which is in the same ballpark as wobbles, and almost nobody likes wobbles anymore so in the end, analogue is bad, but at the same time it's organic and good and warm and...

I think I just divided by zero or something.

rego 14th September 2011 11:18 PM

I don't know about you guys but I only hear 1's and 0's..

Zombie H 14th September 2011 11:19 PM

the digital air conditioning in my cars keeps me nice and chilled with a series of 1's and 0's being constantly shot out of the vents

ionian 14th September 2011 11:22 PM

You gotta know who to listen to and who not to...

For example:

There's the Herbie Hancock that plays his ass off on albums.

Then there's the Herbie Hancock who hawks Bose Wave radios.

Guess which Herbie I completely ignore and pay no attention to...


Regards,
Frank

dhollmusik 14th September 2011 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blinky909 (Post 7032199)
nothing like a sales pitch, huh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estin (Post 7032281)
first thing i thought after reading the quote.



Yeah, right...he was actually promoting the Bob-blessed Moog Modular VST from Arturia.

Read the article, maybe you will get a better idea what his feelings are. The interviewer thought Bob Moog's comments were a dichotomy, considering the Arturia product.

I just consider it the genuine thoughts of an experienced man unpertubed by modern marketing rules of engagement.


jkthtyrt

Estin 14th September 2011 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhollmusik (Post 7032345)
I just consider it the genuine thoughts of an experienced man unpertubed by modern marketing rules of engagement.


that sure is a nice thought. heh

atma 14th September 2011 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niklasni1 (Post 7032270)
Yeah, sound from a digital source run through a digital->analogue converter isn't really analogue at all. Your speakers know the difference and aren't vibrating when you run digital sound through it, they're jumping in tiny little steps directly from one position to the other whilst sticking their middle finger up at physics. Believe the hype and get adjusting that 2" tape deck of yours.

haha kfhkh

GeorgeHayduke 14th September 2011 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estin (Post 7032281)
..

speaks truth. Its all analogue by the time its coming out of speakers.

Along the chain the sound has been converted from a 'natural' format (electricity/electro magnetism/sound waves) to a wholly artificial format where everything is broken down to discreet points, then put together again by connecting the dots.

~ versus .l.l

six one cynic 15th September 2011 12:28 AM

analog has character - you twist the knobs and it's like 'eeeaorahhhh!"

my mono/poly, mopho, evolver...these instruments are hot and sound alive, they can be made to breathe and moan...there is no substitute for natural analog resonance and feedback!

Disease Factory 15th September 2011 01:18 AM

Aliasing, and amp warmth. This is what digital sucks at.

3phase 15th September 2011 02:34 AM

After the laws of thermodynamic energy dont gets lost, just transformed from one state to the other.. therfore in a 100% analog musical production and reproduction process you actually have a little of the original energetic emission on your record. So on a Caruso shellack there is still some of the original energy emission of Caruso himself present even after more than 100 years.. Maybe the reason why some people love the technical quite bad sound of the old gramophons so much?

As soon you do one AD conversion you are leaving the physical domain and turning energy into information.. that information gets transformed to energy again in the DA converter.. its an analoge energetic event again.. true.. but just a simulation of the source event. No original energy present, a clone. And a rather unperfect one ..roughly sliced.

The last word on digital versus analoge is actually..

you cant make a filet steak from meatloaf anymore heh

Estin 15th September 2011 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3phase (Post 7032861)

As soon you do one AD conversion you are leaving the physical domain and turning energy into information.. that information gets transformed to energy again in the DA converter.. its an analoge energetic event again.. true.. but just a simulation of the source event. No original energy present, a clone. And a rather unperfect one ..roughly sliced.



you cant make a filet steak from meatloaf anymore heh

thats like saying water that is boiled into a gas state and then condensed reforming back into liquid is not "true water" because of the physical change it has gone through. I respectfully disagree kind sir! heh

3phase 15th September 2011 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estin (Post 7033143)
thats like saying water that is boiled into a gas state and then condensed reforming back into liquid is not "true water" because of the physical change it has gone through. I respectfully disagree kind sir! heh

bull... its the same watermolekules of cause its the same water...

but when you would digitize ( = count and analyze ) the water molekules and than rebuild them with your matter printer or molekule resyntheziser,
it would´nt be the same water anymore. Just a copy of the original water, synthetic water ..or cloned water :-)
And it wouldnt be probably very healthy to drink.. like destilled water its probably missing some important minerals or so...

Digitizing something is actually not just another physical state.. its transforming physical events into plain information.. a plan how to rebuild something in the physical world. You can write it down on paper but you cant touch, hear, see or measure it anymore. Call it another dimension if you want but one that is officially not part of our physical cosmos.

zwatrif 15th September 2011 04:58 AM

Yawn.... Most end-listeners dont really care how you got there

djugel 15th September 2011 05:04 AM

that's great if your music appeals to most people... most people prefer the taste of ****.

just fighting cliche with cliche...

StringBean 15th September 2011 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Estin (Post 7033143)
thats like saying water that is boiled into a gas state and then condensed reforming back into liquid is not "true water" because of the physical change it has gone through. I respectfully disagree kind sir! heh

Like 3phase said, very poor analogy. water exists naturally in both states. man created the digital domain which is merely an attempt to recreate nature via computers.

criminallysmooth 15th September 2011 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwatrif (Post 7033194)
Yawn.... Most end-listeners dont really care how you got there

so there's no difference between taking a road trip in a $60 billion dollar ferrari limousine vs sitting in a hay cart behind a horse, because the folks you are visiting don't care how you got there?

I dont care about this argument, I'm just an analogy aficionado

a zombie 15th September 2011 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3phase (Post 7032861)
After the laws of thermodynamic energy dont gets lost, just transformed from one state to the other.. therfore in a 100% analog musical production and reproduction process you actually have a little of the original energetic emission on your record. So on a Caruso shellack there is still some of the original energy emission of Caruso himself present even after more than 100 years.. Maybe the reason why some people love the technical quite bad sound of the old gramophons so much?

As soon you do one AD conversion you are leaving the physical domain and turning energy into information.. that information gets transformed to energy again in the DA converter.. its an analoge energetic event again.. true.. but just a simulation of the source event. No original energy present, a clone. And a rather unperfect one ..roughly sliced.

The last word on digital versus analoge is actually..

you cant make a filet steak from meatloaf anymore heh

The grooves in a record vinyl don't contain any "energy". So your theory doesn't work.

zwatrif 15th September 2011 05:49 AM

Analogue vs digital - To me this is a "tired and getting old" comparison. (I noticed the article is a bit old too - January, 2005) I say just write and record a great song, (either by way of analogue or digital or both) and hopefully you'll satisfy yourself and maybe even stir up some heart-felt emotion in the people that listen to it.

3phase 15th September 2011 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by criminallysmooth (Post 7033293)
so there's no difference between taking a road trip in a $60 billion dollar ferrari limousine vs sitting in a hay cart behind a horse, because the folks you are visiting don't care how you got there?

I dont care about this argument, I'm just an analogy aficionado

i think he ment it more in the sense that he dont cares whether we use minced rat or horse filets as long it looks like a burger.

controlvoltage 15th September 2011 06:03 AM

it is possible to have "perfect reproduction" going analog->digital->analog.

digital works in discrete time (tiny steps) where analog works in continuous time.
There are problems which can be completely solved by either method, discrete or continuous.

given certain original signal, certain digitizing parameters... you can reproduce exactly the original signal with zero information loss.

This is mathematically provable, but it's not what happens in the reality of commercial audio products so it's kind of moot. :)

edit: I like the thought about Caruso's "original energy" preserved in the shellac.