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-   -   Evaluating AD/DA loops by means of Audio Diffmaker (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-shoot-outs-sound-file-comparisons-audio-tests/607481-evaluating-ad-da-loops-means-audio-diffmaker.html)

didier.brest 1st May 2011 11:03 PM

Evaluating AD/DA loops by means of Audio Diffmaker
 
I evaluated the AD-DA loops from Prism Orpheus and Mytek proposed in this post . I used only the symphonic clip that you can get from this link or the original link here below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MainTime (Post 6591523)
Mytek 8x192 and Prism Orpheus after play & record one time.
Download Mytek_Prism.zip from Sendspace.com - send big files the easy way

by means of Audio DiffMaker and tested also on the same audio sample three audio interfaces : RME Fireface 400, RME Babyface and Steinberg MR816X. Here below the 'correlated null depth' figures (both last ones) from Audio DiifMaker, the higher the figures in dB, the closer to the original the AD-DA loop:

Mytek 8 x 192
-1,002sec, 0,450dB (L), 0,553dB (R)..Corr Depth: 35,3 dB (L), 36,9 dB (R)

Orpheus
-1sec, 0,075dB (L), 0,064dB (R)..Corr Depth: 30,8 dB (L), 32,4 dB (R)

Fireface 400
-36,94usec, 0,298dB (L), 0,311dB (R)..Corr Depth: 30,2 dB (L), 31,8 dB (R)

MR816X
-2,101msec, 1,104dB (L), 0,605dB (R)..Corr Depth: 19,1 dB (L), 21,0 dB (R)

Babyface
1,555usec, 0,352dB (L), 0,414dB (R)..Corr Depth: 9,2 dB (L), 10,8 dB (R)

Results from other AD-DA converters are welcome.diddlydoo

The updated list of results is at the end of the thread.
__________________

guze 3rd May 2011 12:49 AM

I did the test with a audiofire8 (non adat CS4272) and these were the results:

Corr Depth: 27,7 dB (L), 29,5 dB (R)

didier.brest 5th May 2011 08:16 PM

Edirol FA-66 added.

Mytek 8 x 192
-1,002sec, 0,450dB (L), 0,553dB (R)..Corr Depth: 35,3 dB (L), 36,9 dB (R)

Prism Orpheus
-1sec, 0,075dB (L), 0,064dB (R)..Corr Depth: 30,8 dB (L), 32,4 dB (R)

RME Fireface 400
-36,94usec, 0,298dB (L), 0,311dB (R)..Corr Depth: 30,2 dB (L), 31,8 dB (R)

Echo Audiofire 8 (non adat CS4272)
Corr Depth: 27,7 dB (L), 29,5 dB (R)

Yamaha Steinberg MR816X
-2,101msec, 1,104dB (L), 0,605dB (R)..Corr Depth: 19,1 dB (L), 21,0 dB (R)

Edirol FA-66
-8,95msec, 1,015dB (L), 0,605dB (R)..Corr Depth: 15,6 dB (L), 17,1 dB (R)

RME Babyface
1,555usec, 0,352dB (L), 0,414dB (R)..Corr Depth: 9,2 dB (L), 10,8 dB (R)

Wanted: Apogee, Crane Song, Focusrite, Forsell, Lake People, Lavry, Metric Halo, Universal audio, Weiss etc. And other models from the brands already here.

lamixer 7th May 2011 09:43 PM

192 1 loop
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hello Didier:

Here is the single loop through on the 192 for your results set.

Thanks.

didier.brest 8th May 2011 12:23 AM

Thanks. But it is not the same original file. I'm using the one from MainTime.

lamixer 8th May 2011 09:31 AM

Ah. I see. Well, someone else would have to do it I guess as I've sold my 192 recently!

johnnyc 11th May 2011 11:56 PM

How was this done exactly as there are 2 original files? I don't have pro tools so sorry if that's what the problem is.

didier.brest 12th May 2011 08:26 AM

I used only the symphonic clip.

AndG 16th May 2011 01:06 PM

Hi Everyone
Tc Electronic Impact Twin
-2.286msec, 0.524dB (L), 0.817dB (R)..Corr Depth: 32.0 dB (L), 33.6 dB (R)


Link to file:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15405661/impcttwin.wav

didier.brest 16th May 2011 10:47 PM

Thanks. kfhkh
I added it to my list and for each file I added the left and right RMS levels of the time-aligned gain-balanced difference file provided by Audio DiffMaker, measured in Wavelab.

Mytek 8 x 192 (MainTime)
-1,002sec, 0,450dB (L), 0,553dB (R)..Corr Depth: 35,3 dB (L), 36,9 dB (R) Difference: -55.2 dBFS (L) -56.0 dBFS (R)

TC Electronics Impact Twin (AndG)
-2,286msec, 0,524dB (L), 0,817dB (R)..Corr Depth: 32,0 dB (L), 33,6 dB (R) Difference: -51.7 dBFS (L) -52.7 dBFS (R)

Prism Orpheus (MainTime)
-1sec, 0,075dB (L), 0,064dB (R)..Corr Depth: 30,8 dB (L), 32,4 dB (R) Difference: -51.1 dBFS (L) -52.4 dBFS (R)

RME Fireface 400 (didier.brest)
-36,94usec, 0,298dB (L), 0,311dB (R)..Corr Depth: 30,2 dB (L), 31,8 dB (R) Difference: -49.8 dBFS (L) -50.8 dBFS (R)

Echo Audiofire 8, non adat CS4272 (guze)
Corr Depth: 27,7 dB (L), 29,5 dB (R)

Yamaha Steinberg MR816X (didier.brest)
-2,101msec, 1,104dB (L), 0,605dB (R)..Corr Depth: 19,1 dB (L), 21,0 dB (R) Difference: -38.6 dBFS (L) -40.0 dBFS (R)

Edirol FA-66 (didier.brest)
-8,95msec, 1,015dB (L), 0,605dB (R)..Corr Depth: 15,6 dB (L), 17,1 dB (R) Difference: -34.4 dBFS (L) -35.4 dBFS (R)

RME Babyface (didier.brest)
1,555usec, 0,352dB (L), 0,414dB (R)..Corr Depth: 9,2 dB (L), 10,8 dB (R) Difference: -28.8 dBFS (L) -29.8 dBFS (R)


Wanted: Apogee, Crane Song, Focusrite, Forsell, Lake People, Lavry, Metric Halo, Universal audio, Weiss etc. And other models from the brands already here.

Deleted d69d8cd 27th May 2011 04:52 PM

Hi Didier,

Here is the RME HDSP 9632

parameters: -1.564usec, 0.463dB (L), 0.461dB (R)..Corr Depth: 31.4 dB (L), 33.0 dB (R)

Thanks for this test!

https://www.yousendit.com/download/d...VnNuSlJFQlE9PQ

didier.brest 27th May 2011 09:21 PM

Thanks. kfhkh
It has been added.

Mytek 8 x 192 (MainTime)
-1,002sec, 0,450dB (L), 0,553dB (R)..Corr Depth: 35,3 dB (L), 36,9 dB (R) Difference: -55.2 dBFS (L) -56.0 dBFS (R)

TC Electronics Impact Twin (AndG)
-2,286msec, 0,524dB (L), 0,817dB (R)..Corr Depth: 32,0 dB (L), 33,6 dB (R) Difference: -51.7 dBFS (L) -52.7 dBFS (R)

RME HDSP 9632 (schtim)
-1.564usec, 0.463dB (L), 0.461dB (R)..Corr Depth: 31.4 dB (L), 33.0 dB (R) Difference: -51.2 dBFS (L) -52.1 dBFS (R)

Prism Orpheus (MainTime)
-1sec, 0,075dB (L), 0,064dB (R)..Corr Depth: 30,8 dB (L), 32,4 dB (R) Difference: -51.1 dBFS (L) -52.4 dBFS (R)

RME Fireface 400 (didier.brest)
-36,94usec, 0,298dB (L), 0,311dB (R)..Corr Depth: 30,2 dB (L), 31,8 dB (R) Difference: -49.8 dBFS (L) -50.8 dBFS (R)

Echo Audiofire 8, non adat CS4272 (guze)
Corr Depth: 27,7 dB (L), 29,5 dB (R)

Yamaha Steinberg MR816X (didier.brest)
-2,101msec, 1,104dB (L), 0,605dB (R)..Corr Depth: 19,1 dB (L), 21,0 dB (R) Difference: -38.6 dBFS (L) -40.0 dBFS (R)

Edirol FA-66 (didier.brest)
-8,95msec, 1,015dB (L), 0,605dB (R)..Corr Depth: 15,6 dB (L), 17,1 dB (R) Difference: -34.4 dBFS (L) -35.4 dBFS (R)

RME Babyface (didier.brest)
1,555usec, 0,352dB (L), 0,414dB (R)..Corr Depth: 9,2 dB (L), 10,8 dB (R) Difference: -28.8 dBFS (L) -29.8 dBFS (R)

Kaigen 28th May 2011 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by didier.brest (Post 6687880)
Thanks. kfhkh
It has been added.

Mytek 8 x 192 (MainTime)
-1,002sec, 0,450dB (L), 0,553dB (R)..Corr Depth: 35,3 dB (L), 36,9 dB (R) Difference: -55.2 dBFS (L) -56.0 dBFS (R)

TC Electronics Impact Twin (AndG)
-2,286msec, 0,524dB (L), 0,817dB (R)..Corr Depth: 32,0 dB (L), 33,6 dB (R) Difference: -51.7 dBFS (L) -52.7 dBFS (R)

RME HDSP 9632 (schtim)
-1.564usec, 0.463dB (L), 0.461dB (R)..Corr Depth: 31.4 dB (L), 33.0 dB (R) Difference: -51.2 dBFS (L) -52.1 dBFS (R)

Prism Orpheus (MainTime)
-1sec, 0,075dB (L), 0,064dB (R)..Corr Depth: 30,8 dB (L), 32,4 dB (R) Difference: -51.1 dBFS (L) -52.4 dBFS (R)

RME Fireface 400 (didier.brest)
-36,94usec, 0,298dB (L), 0,311dB (R)..Corr Depth: 30,2 dB (L), 31,8 dB (R) Difference: -49.8 dBFS (L) -50.8 dBFS (R)

Echo Audiofire 8, non adat CS4272 (guze)
Corr Depth: 27,7 dB (L), 29,5 dB (R)

Yamaha Steinberg MR816X (didier.brest)
-2,101msec, 1,104dB (L), 0,605dB (R)..Corr Depth: 19,1 dB (L), 21,0 dB (R) Difference: -38.6 dBFS (L) -40.0 dBFS (R)

Edirol FA-66 (didier.brest)
-8,95msec, 1,015dB (L), 0,605dB (R)..Corr Depth: 15,6 dB (L), 17,1 dB (R) Difference: -34.4 dBFS (L) -35.4 dBFS (R)

RME Babyface (didier.brest)
1,555usec, 0,352dB (L), 0,414dB (R)..Corr Depth: 9,2 dB (L), 10,8 dB (R) Difference: -28.8 dBFS (L) -29.8 dBFS (R)

Amazing. The test result reflects my listening experience very well.

jrasia 31st May 2011 11:21 PM

Love to see a RME UFX thrown in the mix!

diatonic 1st June 2011 06:09 PM

Ideas on what is bottlenecking the babyface results? I figured it would be closer to the FF400

didier.brest 1st June 2011 07:30 PM

I'm also surprised. I would like that someone test another one.

diatonic 4th June 2011 01:05 PM

I am guessing it is because the BabyFace pre-amps are inline on the two analog inputs, so you are not just testing A/D but the pre-amp circuity which will be expected to have some coloration. My ears tell me the AD/DA loop is doing a good job.

didier.brest 4th June 2011 01:13 PM

I agree that listening to the baby face loop do not reveal such poor performance. Note that the MR816X (*) and the Edirol FA-66 have also a preamp ahead the converter.

(*) I di use the balanced inputs, not the unbalanced insert inputs that bypass the preamps.

diatonic 6th June 2011 11:58 PM

I heard back from RME. Their converters apply a sub-sample offset. Looking at Diffmaker's AES paper, the reference vs processed comparison mentions sample by sample comparison. Sub-sample offsets would throw this off even though the waveform is OK. Add in the pre-amp circuitry of the babyface and this may explain the numbers. Still very happy with the babyface, so only looking into this for interest's sake.

didier.brest 7th June 2011 09:32 AM

Audio Diffmaker is correcting the time offset with 1 ns accuracy, which is much less than 1/1000 of the sampling step, as shown by some time offset figures expressed in us (µs) with 3 figures after the decimal mark. A comparison sample by sample at the original sampling rate could not achieve so low difference figures. I am sure about that because before using Audi Diiffmaker I was evaluating such differences in Wavelab and I had to upsample by 32 the files (and then testing several shifts as a number of samples) to get consistent difference RMS level figures.

Panelhead 8th June 2011 03:02 PM

Other direction
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by didier.brest (Post 6723659)
Audio Diffmaker is correcting the time offset with 1 ns accuracy, which is much less than 1/1000 of the sampling step, as shown by some time offset figures expressed in us (µs) with 3 figures after the decimal mark. A comparison sample by sample at the original sampling rate could not achieve so low difference figures. I am sure about that because before using Audi Diiffmaker I was evaluating such differences in Wavelab and I had to upsample by 32 the files (and then testing several shifts as a number of samples) to get consistent difference RMS level figures.

Didier,
Can this be run D/A and then A/D to see how well the digital files match? I have a TC Impact Twin. Been looking for a deal on a Prism Orpheus. Glad I never found one. Looks like the Mytek needs to be looked for.


George

didier.brest 8th June 2011 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panelhead (Post 6727898)
Can this be run D/A and then A/D to see how well the digital files match?

Hi George,

it is what we are doing here: an AD-DA loop ... May be I did not catch your point ?

Didier

Panelhead 9th June 2011 02:06 AM

Results may be the same
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by didier.brest (Post 6728830)
Hi George,

it is what we are doing here: an AD-DA loop ... May be I did not catch your point ?

Didier

I was wondering if the test could start with a PCM file, convert to analog, and convert back to digital. Then compare the digital files instead of the two analog.
My application is ripping vinyl. The test as run is better. But I will only be running the A/D part. And using the mic pres for balanced step ups. I feel the Impact Twin will be fine in this application. I would like a Mytek anyway.

didier.brest 9th June 2011 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panelhead (Post 6730092)
I was wondering if the test could start with a PCM file, convert to analog, and convert back to digital. Then compare the digital files instead of the two analog.

It is exactly what we are doing here. The original PCM file is here. Anybody who wants to participate has just to digitally record the analog playback of this digital recording, then upload somewhere (30 MB is too big for uploading here) the resulting digital recording and share the download link here.

guze 9th June 2011 06:13 PM

Here is the file for the audiofire, so you can make your tests. To see how it compare with the others.
Good tests kfhkh

audiofire8.wav

didier.brest 9th June 2011 10:57 PM

3 Attachment(s)
Thank you!

There was an accident in your loop. 8 extra samples were added, which makes impossible the time alignment both before and after this accident. The time alignment from DiffMaker is correct for the part after the accident. As a result there is a strong error before. See attached screenshots from Wavelab.
I repaired your file by removing these 8 samples and I did again the test. I got figures higher than before repair but lower than your first figures. I guess that this loop is not the one that your tested first ? My figures are included in the list here below. If you have a better loop, I am keen redoing the test.

Mytek 8 x 192 (MainTime)
-1,002sec, 0,450dB (L), 0,553dB (R)..Corr Depth: 35,3 dB (L), 36,9 dB (R) Difference: -55.2 dBFS (L) -56.0 dBFS (R)

TC Electronics Impact Twin (AndG)
-2,286msec, 0,524dB (L), 0,817dB (R)..Corr Depth: 32,0 dB (L), 33,6 dB (R) Difference: -51.7 dBFS (L) -52.7 dBFS (R)

RME HDSP 9632 (schtim)
-1.564usec, 0.463dB (L), 0.461dB (R)..Corr Depth: 31.4 dB (L), 33.0 dB (R) Difference: -51.2 dBFS (L) -52.1 dBFS (R)

Prism Orpheus (MainTime)
-1sec, 0,075dB (L), 0,064dB (R)..Corr Depth: 30,8 dB (L), 32,4 dB (R) Difference: -51.1 dBFS (L) -52.4 dBFS (R)

RME Fireface 400 (didier.brest)
-36,94usec, 0,298dB (L), 0,311dB (R)..Corr Depth: 30,2 dB (L), 31,8 dB (R) Difference: -49.8 dBFS (L) -50.8 dBFS (R)

Echo Audiofire 8, non adat CS4272 (guze)
-1,003sec, 0,840dB (L), 0,888dB (R)..Corr Depth: 26,4 dB (L), 28,2 dB (R) Difference: -39.3 dBFS (L) -39.3 dBFS (R)

Yamaha Steinberg MR816X (didier.brest)
-2,101msec, 1,104dB (L), 0,605dB (R)..Corr Depth: 19,1 dB (L), 21,0 dB (R) Difference: -38.6 dBFS (L) -40.0 dBFS (R)

Edirol FA-66 (didier.brest)
-8,95msec, 1,015dB (L), 0,605dB (R)..Corr Depth: 15,6 dB (L), 17,1 dB (R) Difference: -34.4 dBFS (L) -35.4 dBFS (R)

RME Babyface (didier.brest)
1,555usec, 0,352dB (L), 0,414dB (R)..Corr Depth: 9,2 dB (L), 10,8 dB (R) Difference: -28.8 dBFS (L) -29.8 dBFS (R)

guze 10th June 2011 05:17 PM

Hi,
Yes , i did add some time in the beggining because of the fade in/out.
I'll make a new one , I hope it looks better, or maybe i will start saving for a mytek.

http://www.mediafire.com/?abxblbggleql3ud

Deleted d69d8cd 20th June 2011 07:35 AM

audiofire 8 with ADAT
 
Hi,

Here are the specs for the audiofire 8 with ADAT clocked to an RME HDSP 9632.

parameters: -1.164sec, 0.128dB (L), 0.126dB (R)..Corr Depth: 25.9 dB (L), 27.5 dB (R)

https://rcpt.yousendit.com/115296821...965066308e6afb

Bought this box after seeing these test results, haha.
Only weird thing about it is that the ADAT sockets are really small and don't allow for larger ADAT plugs. The 1/4" sockets are also pretty close together. Am thinking of switching to an RME ADI-2 just to rectify this issue...

Really hoping the other big names start doing this test to rival the Mytek, at least in terms of clean conversion. But I guess we can see some results in Kraku's 10x ADDA loopback test.

didier.brest 20th June 2011 01:03 PM

Updated list with the third test of the Aufiofire 8 from guze and the one from schtim

Mytek 8 x 192 (MainTime)
-1,002sec, 0,450dB (L), 0,553dB (R)..Corr Depth: 35,3 dB (L), 36,9 dB (R) Difference: -55.2 dBFS (L) -56.0 dBFS (R)

TC Electronics Impact Twin (AndG)
-2,286msec, 0,524dB (L), 0,817dB (R)..Corr Depth: 32,0 dB (L), 33,6 dB (R) Difference: -51.7 dBFS (L) -52.7 dBFS (R)

RME HDSP 9632 (schtim)
-1.564usec, 0.463dB (L), 0.461dB (R)..Corr Depth: 31.4 dB (L), 33.0 dB (R) Difference: -51.2 dBFS (L) -52.1 dBFS (R)

Prism Orpheus (MainTime)
-1sec, 0,075dB (L), 0,064dB (R)..Corr Depth: 30,8 dB (L), 32,4 dB (R) Difference: -51.1 dBFS (L) -52.4 dBFS (R)

RME Fireface 400 (didier.brest)
-36,94usec, 0,298dB (L), 0,311dB (R)..Corr Depth: 30,2 dB (L), 31,8 dB (R) Difference: -49.8 dBFS (L) -50.8 dBFS (R)

Echo Audiofire 8 with ADAT clocked to an RME HDSP 9632 (schtim)
-1.164sec, 0.128dB (L), 0.126dB (R)..Corr Depth: 25.9 dB (L), 27.5 dB (R) Difference: -45.5 dBFS (L) -46.5 dBFS (R)

Echo Audiofire 8 non adat CS4272 (guze)
-2,952msec, 0,840dB (L), 0,885dB (R)..Corr Depth: 26,4 dB (L), 28,2 dB (R) Difference: -40.6 dBFS (L) -40.6 dBFS (R)

Yamaha Steinberg MR816X (didier.brest)
-2,101msec, 1,104dB (L), 0,605dB (R)..Corr Depth: 19,1 dB (L), 21,0 dB (R) Difference: -38.6 dBFS (L) -40.0 dBFS (R)

Edirol FA-66 (didier.brest)
-8,95msec, 1,015dB (L), 0,605dB (R)..Corr Depth: 15,6 dB (L), 17,1 dB (R) Difference: -34.4 dBFS (L) -35.4 dBFS (R)

RME Babyface (didier.brest)
1,555usec, 0,352dB (L), 0,414dB (R)..Corr Depth: 9,2 dB (L), 10,8 dB (R) Difference: -28.8 dBFS (L) -29.8 dBFS (R)

isma 3rd September 2011 11:26 AM

Hi didier it's Isma (from audiofanzine), i found this post, very interesting, as it could explain the babyface's results:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ulrich (Post 4770928)
Hi Robin,

did you use two seperate Myteks for the test?

In case you used only one Mytek being D/A and A/D at the same time, the test doesn't provide the same conditions for the Mytek as for the other coverters because only in this case D/A and A/D share exactly the same clock circuit, undoubtedly leading to better results.

Can you please clarify this? Thanks!

Regards,
Ulrich

As the guy from Rme said, the babyface doesn't use the same ship for DA's and AD's, (so different clock circuit,) however, the fireface does, so better results, it could be the same for the TC impact.
If Ulrich is write, it means that, to compare the fireface to the babyface, we'll need 2 different firefaces.
Or send the fireface into the babyface, then compare to your babyface's results (which could act like 2 different babyfaces), this will tell which DA's are more transparent.
Do you have both fireface 400 and babyface?
As soon as i can i'll send the loop from the duet 2 to the babyface, so we'll have:
fireface-babyface
duet 2-babyface
babyface-babyface

cheers