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TML 12th July 2005 03:35 AM

Tried summing NOT Impressed
 
I've got a 192 with 8 outs and a HEDD....took 10 out to a fulcrom this weekend...used Dakings......mixed to masterling.....maybe a little more bottom...slight separation......ran non summed 2 bus out of pro tools back in...instead of bouncing...more depth to mixes. Conclusion.....I know there are variables bouncing to PT, going fulcrum to master link...hitiing the daking transformers..etc......I was given the impression by several people that it would be a very noticable difference......don't think so with only 10 outs...maybe the 192's aren't the best for this process......I'm in the middle of 15 projects....i've gotten used to ITB mixing with plugs on the bus....ie...mastering while mixing.....pain in the butt to sum this way for the outcome.....will try a few times this week to a/b more tracks.will try api's and tube tech pre's...but look for a Fulcrum for sale on this forum in the next weeks...it's probably me.....
Peace
Tim

Teacher 12th July 2005 04:13 AM

I felt the same way in the beginning....live with it a lil more mixing ITB 'optimally' IS different then mixing 'optimally' on a Summing Box. Less gain staging and more push the faders up and let it rock! jkthtyrt YMMV

audiomichael 12th July 2005 04:36 AM

With Protools HD and 192's, the difference is WAAAAY less noticable than with the ProTools Mix system. I think HD is the box isn't too bad.

wwittman 12th July 2005 05:15 AM

I don't know about the Fulcrum because the idea of running my mix into a MIC pre seems like a bad idea, to ME.
But i will tell you that the first time I compared the Dangerous 2 Buss to a mix in the box it was absolutely no contest.
I reluctantly HAD to remix.

Bang 12th July 2005 06:07 AM

The concept of the Folcrom came when I got the urge to get the overall sound of my Great River preamp on my mixes. Something about the vibe of that box was just awesome, and my ITB mixes were so clean and digital, I called Dan Kennedy and asked him to build me a summing box that would sound like his preamp, and then he told me about his idea of a passive summing box that I could use his pre or any pre for make up gain. This sounded good and he led me to Justin at Roll music and the two of them finalized the design. Justin is amazing at what he does. The first time I used the Folcrom with the Great River and compared it to the ITB mix, it was a joke. The Folcrom/Great River combo had this cool analog vibe to it. The way the Folcrom system works is similar to a console with a make up gain. Its a brilliant concept and its very versatile. I would try some different mic pres and do some more a/bing. Maybe you like the sound of digital, I don't, but some do. What kind of music is it?

Steve
www.bangrecording.com
www.blacklinerock.com

u b k 12th July 2005 07:10 AM

why don't you share your itb vs. summed mix with everyone so we can draw our own conclusions?

gregoire
del ubik

blaugruen7 12th July 2005 07:31 AM

yes please!
and please ubik post yours, too.
hooppie

TML 12th July 2005 07:31 AM

Bang-
I'm not doubting the quality of the Fulcrum. What I was trying to say is that with my system....10 outs.......not the greatest D/A....I didn't hear a big difference. I'm in the middle of many projects...about 15....everything from pop radio rock...emo...indie...and 2 benefit cd's for winter...including a christmas album.....HELP!! That said.....I tried integrating the summing this weekend for 3 hr's...but I mix as I go and have to take the project I experimented with....to a mastering studio on the 18th. The client and I determined that it would be taking a step backwards.....I should have time later this week. I did hear a slightly better..more focused controll of the lower 2 octaves...thru my BA 15 a's.....kik and bass was more extended. That could have been due to many variables. I usually mix with an oxford eq...sony comp and inflator on mu 2 buss. I stemmed the drums to 2 tracks..bass to one...lead vocal....etc...I heard slightly less hollowness if that makes sense...but so slight.....

ubik-
In the future Ill share some of the summed stuff. I'm currently testing it on material that can't be released at this time.

edIT 12th July 2005 07:58 AM

I am a Folcrom owner and I think where it really shines is using all 16 outs of a DA and putting it in the folcrom, and running the Folcrom outs into a few pieces of analog gear back into the computer. It's not going to be a night and day difference with the Folcrom. I think most average consumers will not be able to tell the difference. Just like most average listeners will not be able to tell the difference between a mix EQ'd with a nice analog EQ or one done with a plugin. But IMO, I get good mileage out of hitting the Pre hard with the Folcrom, slamming the track in my STC-8 and hitting my massive passive, and going back in. IMO blows away any L2 w/ EQ combo. So use your best judgement. I started a poll before to see how many people thought analog summing was worth the money and I think you'll see opinions are pretty divided. If it sounds great ITB, mix ITB. If you think ITB is not for you, go OTB. At the end of the day it doesn't matter what anyone says. Most important is that YOU are the happy camper.

u b k 12th July 2005 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blaugruen7
and please ubik post yours, too.
hooppie


i've had the mixes ready for over a week, my server is funky and nothing i upload is seen by browsers, 404 errors galore. i'm working with my host to get it sorted, and will post the files as soon as everything's kosher, full .aiff as well as mp3's.

i'm excited to see what people think!


gregoire
del ubik

krid 12th July 2005 10:19 AM

u b i k, you can use gearslutz for hosting your files : you just have to attach the files to your post.
Let's hear the Nicerizer in action hittt

Dean Landon 12th July 2005 11:26 AM

TML- I'm surprised you don't hear much of a difference. I'm getting great results coming out 16 channels from the 192, to the Folcrom, using a Buzz Audio MA2.2TX to gain it, and 747 for their EQ, to a SPL 2381.

When I'm ready to print, I use a Lavry 4496 A/D/A to a Tascam DV-RA1000.

blaugruen7 12th July 2005 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u b i k
i've had the mixes ready for over a week, my server is funky and nothing i upload is seen by browsers, 404 errors galore. i'm working with my host to get it sorted, and will post the files as soon as everything's kosher, full .aiff as well as mp3's.

i'm excited to see what people think!


gregoire
del ubik



yes, you can use gearslutz as a file host or you can use www.yousendit.com
the files will be available for 7 days.
hooppie

Jules 12th July 2005 12:34 PM

We are digging our Folcrom
Fed via 16 prism Dream ADA's (from a PT Mix + rig)
into API pre's,
Often then into Cranesong STC-8 then Hedd 192 @ 24 bit 96k
into a Masterlink

The young engineers here like to 'drive' the pre's - they would rather put a pad on the output than back down the inputs and lose 'the sound'.

hittt

GYang 12th July 2005 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bang
The first time I used the Folcrom with the Great River and compared it to the ITB mix, it was a joke. The Folcrom/Great River combo had this cool analog vibe to it. The way the Folcrom system works is similar to a console with a make up gain. Its a brilliant concept and its very versatile. I would try some different mic pres and do some more a/bing. Maybe you like the sound of digital, I don't, but some do. What kind of music is it?

With SPL Mixdream I had same experience, but after mixing again and again I found that some mixes ITB was subjectively better. I have no ultimate stand that OTB is better than ITB. They differ and approaches are for sure quite different.
If you try to make OTB mix in completely same way than ITB, most probably you'll get very wrong impression on results. Even outboard gears that fit nicely ITB mixes might appear to be less adequate for OTB mix.
But as I do ITB mainly with Samplitude that I like (sonically) more than PT, I think that OTB compared to PT should be in 90% of situations evidently better.

GYang

wallace 12th July 2005 02:51 PM

I'm not sure if I understood the original post exactly, but you should still be able to put "mastering" plugins on the summed channel from the folcorm. Can't you just set up an aux channel with the input from the folcrom, and treat that like your master fader? I've got a folcrom coming, and I'm excited to try for myself. I did a quick test over the weekend running a mix through my UA 2-610, and then summed normally in Pro Tools. The UA mix surprisingly sounded much more musical. I had to pull the faders down really low though.

TML 12th July 2005 04:49 PM

Wallace- I could set up 2 incoming channels with plugs...that's do-able. I'll lose 2 d/a's in order to monitor....but that will be part of my new test. Also...try running your 2 buss out of pt and back in 2 free tracks....you'll find reverb tails longer and more overall space in the mix....it's slight...like the sounds I heard from summing. Leave bouncing behind...that's one thing I've learned from this....

Edit- I want it to work...It may be the limitation of 8 da's...if the 192's are crappy.....I'm in so many prijects with deadlines..it will stop the flow...I'm in a groove with the ITB stuff...not that I'm Lord-Alge or Clearmountain......but it works...I heard about a 5% diff...maybe a tad more.....still need to test,,,need to make time.....I was given the impression by some that it would be huge....
Tim

no ssl yet 12th July 2005 05:21 PM

definate difference in mix system
 
When I was on my mix system, I heard the lower octaves expand somewhat and become some what less "compressed" sounding (for lack of a better term).

I havent had a chance to experiment with my HD system (been finishing sessions itb)

My mix system left me thinking the more outs I could have from protools the better.

jbuntz 12th July 2005 05:43 PM

I noticed improvements when not mixing ITB, but I was also swapping plugins with nice outboard so It's not the best 1 to 1 comparison. I think the extra conversion steps outweighs the benefits of analog summing alone.

Teacher 12th July 2005 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbuntz
I noticed improvements when not mixing ITB, but I was also swapping plugins with nice outboard so It's not the best 1 to 1 comparison. I think the extra conversion steps outweighs the benefits of analog summing alone.

I guess that dependends more on the quality of converters...i just know from my experience breaking out 8 channels of Benchmark 2008 dac(old skool 20 bit) with a RNC, DBX 160xt & EQ3D on 2 bus for 'air' sounds much better then ITB, but maybe my skills improved within a months time....

cdog 12th July 2005 06:30 PM

I think the actual summing has a lot less to do with the sound of the Folcrom or D2B than the makeup gain, which pushes the audio into distortion very slightly but enough to make a noticeable difference.

If you just run the 2 mix into the line ins of the same pre a lot of the same flavor can be obtained.

If you add in outboard analog EQ, compression, etc. you might feel its worth it to sum externally, but at that point you're better off just mixing through a board IMO.

I'm a 100% ITB guy with 0% regrets. jkthtyrt

wallace 12th July 2005 06:30 PM

Yeah, I just set up a stereo Aux track and made the input my AD (17-18). I guess you would loose a DA, but don't you have 18? I'm not sure how you're set up. I run my DA out of the S/PDIF. Are you not monitoring while you're doing the sum? It seems like you could either record the incoming stereo file, or just bounce it. I don't think you can get around bouncing and dither though, can you? Wouldn't you still have to use a dither plugin on that stereo track or aux?

So if I'm using a 001, what would a good 8 channel DA option be? What about a budget DA? I think I'm pretty much stuck using the 8 channels that are already there.

pigpen 12th July 2005 07:05 PM

I had the same experience as TML...I did notice a little difference, but alot of my gigs are time restrictive so the setup time and not being able to mix as I go as much, made the summing a no go for me. I had a 2 Bus and sold it and bought a 1/2" analog machine tweked out...Now that is a difference! If money and time permits, I'd like to try it again...but then again if I have the time means I won't have the money!
kfhkh

subatomic 12th July 2005 07:35 PM

why would you not be able to "mix as you go" with a summing box?

vudoo 12th July 2005 07:36 PM

I find bypassing the plug-ins made a big difference, especially for drums and bass.
I'm still summing ITB but use inserts from my 192 i/o along with my outboards EQ/comps for drums and bass and have been satisfied with the results.
But i must admit that after being used to working ITB for a while, having to recall analog equipment is a REAL pita.

salvator 12th July 2005 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TML

Edit- I want it to work...It may be the limitation of 8 da's...if the 192's are crappy.....I'm in so many prijects with deadlines..it will stop the flow...I'm in a groove with the ITB stuff...not that I'm Lord-Alge or Clearmountain......but it works...I heard about a 5% diff...maybe a tad more.....still need to test,,,need to make time.....I was given the impression by some that it would be huge....
Tim

Analog summing don't provide an "hudge difference" to me.
Though it's still 5-10 % I don't want to leave without when it's my music.
That said, it's less conveninent, and depending on client and time, I sometyime use ITB ...

Your DA in the 192 are fair enough (i.e. NOT "crappy") to benefit from the summing.

BTW : In my experience, the main difference by separating / drums / bass / vocal / FX /.
To me, it's moslty those groups that help the (as you said) "hollowness", space and separation etc... So I don't think having more channel/DA's will help much if you already think the income is few.
Maybe you want to try to drive the folcrum hard but WITHOUT pre instead ? (That mean hitting the AD lower) I quite like bypassing the pre, unless I want some "mellow" or charachter (but that's also possible because my custom summing has "only" 18 db of level drop)

Best of luck !

Salvator

max cooper 13th July 2005 03:55 AM

I've been wondering about the benefits of summing a small number of channels (like eight.) I have a Rosetta 800 but access to a second one. I suppose it's time to get a summing box and check it out.

I'm thinking that with eight outs I'd break the mix up into four stereo busses. Anyone summing like this, or is everyone each track out to an input on the summing box?

Is this what you're talking about, Salvator?

Kenny Gioia 13th July 2005 04:20 AM

I don't see why it's soo important that everyone hears the same things.

If you don't hear the Folcrom's difference, that's just fine. No big deal.

I hear a huge difference when doing heavy rock. Much more Neve-like.

For Pop, it was not a big deal for me either. I still think it's wider with the Folcrom but using Vintage consoles with Pop is not the best match IMHO.

I gotta find some clean pre's.

RKrizman 13th July 2005 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Produceher
I gotta find some clean pre's.

How about that thing from Buzz Audio?

-R

salvator 13th July 2005 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max cooper
I've been wondering about the benefits of summing a small number of channels (like eight.) I have a Rosetta 800 but access to a second one. I suppose it's time to get a summing box and check it out.

I'm thinking that with eight outs I'd break the mix up into four stereo busses. Anyone summing like this, or is everyone each track out to an input on the summing box?

Is this what you're talking about, Salvator?

Yes, In my setup I use 8 channels often like this :
1-2 drums bus
3-4 bass (my summer don't allow pan for each single input - only hard left/hard right)
5-6 GTR and the like
7-8 vocals and FX

I tried too with more channels, but not that much more interesting. A 'bit' better, yet I don't feel the need. I may buy better AD's instead.

IMO the main difference when drums, bass and vocal are separated. Good help for the "congestion symptom".

Salvator