Gearslutz

Gearslutz (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/)
-   So Much Gear, So Little Time (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/)
-   -   Mesa and Marshall Amps (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/36693-mesa-marshall-amps.html)

jerdude 5th July 2005 11:11 AM

Mesa and Marshall Amps
 
What are THEE guitar amps to have for getting that 'modern' rock tone. I know opinions can vary and the creativity and uniqueness of the tone really comes from trying a bunch of different amps and blending some cool **** together... so essentially anything can work.

My question is more like... where is a good place to start in general. I've heard alot of guys talk about blending the Dual Rec sound with a JCM 800. I have got some decent rock tones with similar combinations.... Mesa and Marshall.

I want to buy some stuff.... maybe 2 setups to have here that rock guitar guys can use to replace or compliment there own rig while recording.

So... where should i start?

Oh.... are people really using PODS on rock records?

84K 5th July 2005 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerdude
What are THEE guitar amps to have for getting that 'modern' rock tone.


For hard rock today's sound is the Bogner 101b Ecstacy, the Diezel Herbert and the Diezel VH4(s).

For a more classic sound, either go classic, or get a %13 ert 33, ert 31 or the highly touted ftr 37... great amps.

F*EDIT*CK THE POD...

el cochino 5th July 2005 01:34 PM

Check out the Randall MTS series with the XTC, SL+, Recto, and maybe the Ultra module, and you'll have a big variety of modern rock sounds. You could buy the rack series with the RT2/50 poweramp to switch between 6L6 and el34 valves.

heyman 5th July 2005 01:45 PM

Modern Rock..

Rectifier

JCM 800 or Jcm 30 aniversary model -if you can find one...
JCM 900 sucks the big one... Oh yeah JCM 900 Cabs suck the big wazoo as well.

Mesa Boogie Mark 2 series.

Ruudman 5th July 2005 01:53 PM

Way back I sold my JCM800 for a melon and some onions;
if I'd only known how high the prices would become...

ruudman

DrFrankencopter 5th July 2005 02:01 PM

Ugggh Modern rock tone.....barf. If you have to, I'd say Mesa rectifier and a Marshall DSL. But, don't most modern rock style guitarists already have this rig covered? I think I'd want something different in the studio, maybe a Soldano SLO and a killer cabinet (find a well made open/closed back cab and load it with multiple different speakers).

For a second rig, try a Marshall 50W plexi, volume attenuator, and some boutique OD pedals (like an SIB vari-drive....more than enough gain to do modern 'tone'). This would be more flexible IMO and be more likely to be different than the rigs that most guitarists will bring into your studio.

BTW, the JCM 900 wasn't *that* bad....okay the dual reverb version was, but the dual master one (which I had) was actually pretty good from what I remember.

Cheers,

Kris

el cochino 5th July 2005 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruudman
Way back I sold my JCM800 for a melon and some onions;
if I'd only known how high the prices would become...

ruudman


Mine got stolen in the late 80's, but I just bought a used one in excellent condition for €400-. These amps simply rawk! kfhkh

max cooper 5th July 2005 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heyman
JCM 800 or Jcm 30 aniversary model -if you can find one...
JCM 900 sucks the big one... Oh yeah JCM 900 Cabs suck the big wazoo as well.

This is funny to me.

When I was a kid in (I think) '83 I saved and saved to buy a new JCM800 50 watt. I soon learned that real players considered them 'lame' and traded up to a '76 JMP which I still have today. Now JCM800's are sought after, but I still prefer the JMP's. I think 'modern' is how you play, not the amp. I got a Rectifier in '01 and disliked it for a whole tour.

To each his own. jkthtyrt

De chromium cob 5th July 2005 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by el cochino
Check out the Randall MTS series with the XTC, SL+, Recto, and maybe the Ultra module, and you'll have a big variety of modern rock sounds. You could buy the rack series with the RT2/50 poweramp to switch between 6L6 and el34 valves.

I second that! They sound fantastic- I have the SL+, Recto, Brown, Tweed and Blackface modules and love them all....Next ones I'm getting are the XTC and the Top Boost!

brownmouse 5th July 2005 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by el cochino
Check out the Randall MTS series with the XTC, SL+, Recto, and maybe the Ultra module, and you'll have a big variety of modern rock sounds. You could buy the rack series with the RT2/50 poweramp to switch between 6L6 and el34 valves.

yup, thats a really good way to go. versatile as well.
joshua

MusicSh*tty 5th July 2005 05:00 PM

I'm getting to where I dread seeing the Boogie.

Though I'm sure not all models are like this so much but the players who drag in the tremoverbs and rectos have waaaayyyy too much bass in their sound.

Then again, maybe it's the cabs.

Either way, it forces the bass to be something other than itself.

Ruudman 5th July 2005 05:05 PM

An old Boogie MkII head (50W) with a 1960 cab, now that's a
serious rocker thumbsup

ruudman

rolandk 5th July 2005 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max cooper
This is funny to me.

When I was a kid in (I think) '83 I saved and saved to buy a new JCM800 50 watt. I soon learned that real players considered them 'lame' and traded up to a '76 JMP which I still have today. Now JCM800's are sought after, but I still prefer the JMP's. I think 'modern' is how you play, not the amp. I got a Rectifier in '01 and disliked it for a whole tour.

To each his own. jkthtyrt

Sorry to stray off topic for a moment and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the JCM800 model 2203/2204 exactly the same circuitry as the JMP 2203/2204's? The reason for the change was the Rose-Morris nightmare ended and Jim wanted the newer JCM800 cosmetics to reflect the change?

84K 5th July 2005 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 84K
For hard rock today's sound is the Bogner 101b Ecstacy, the Diezel Herbert and the Diezel VH4(s).

For a more classic sound, either go classic, or get a %13 ert 33, ert 31 or the highly touted ftr 37... great amps.

F*EDIT*CK THE POD...


When I posted this, I was thinking of the top rock amps that are being used on a lot of big $$$ albums.... Marshalls and Mesa are still the biggest game, but many people are using the ablove mentioned amps for recording (and live).

soundwarrior 5th July 2005 06:26 PM

I will agree with 84k. The Diezel Herbert is Awesome. I made a big mistake in selling mine. I also have a VHT UL. Both would be the perfect match. The Herbert has more depth and chug to it and offers a lot of useable gain here (useable being the key). It is also awesome for lead and covers a lot more ground than just modern rock tones with channel1 and channel 2. The Vht is voiced more in the mids, high mids and offers tight low end but not as big as the Herbert. The UL is faster and tighter than the herbert. I would love to add the Herbert and layer both amps together. I better start saving up to get that Diezel back. Also you don't have to crank the herbert to get a awesome tone. You could play at bedroom levels and get a good sound. Have not heard the Bogners.

dj_who 5th July 2005 08:14 PM

rectifier for the nu metal tone

jcm 800 for a more classic metal tone

BJohnston 6th July 2005 03:43 PM

Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier + Marshall JCM 800 ran together with a Y cable. Probably one of the greatest tones I've ever heard.

B

The Alamo 6th July 2005 05:20 PM

From a mixing perspective
 
Just want to chime in on this since the last two albums I've mixed (actually I'm finishing the second one on friday) were both the kind of albums that sorta fit the bill: modern guitar rock/punkrock/metalish...
Both bands are pretty well known across Europe. (and this is not to say I only mix high profile bands, but rather to put into perspective what league the band is in, since someone was asking about $$ projects).
Anyway, this is what I got to mix (talking abt gtrs only):

1.Mesa rectifier (nt sure which one) with Bogner cabinet: triple miced (SM57,R122,421)(preamps were (AFAIK) API, Neve and UA.)
2.Diezel VH4 with another Bogner cabinet, same triple micing.
3.Bogner Ecstacy with third Bogner cabinet.

So, per guitar part this came down to 3 amps; I believe the gtr signal was split using the PCP. All parts were doubled.
For lead guitars I was given both the Mesa as well as Marshall 1959/Marshall cab.
The Marshall was also recorded with the same mics.

So far for the background; here's what I found:

First of all WAY too many options...FUK...
Then, for this kinda heavier rock/punk rock the Mesa blended remarkably well with the other tracks. I got the best combination from using the SM57 and the R122. Very punchy, never muddy, and just the right attack. HPF's were the way to go for both though.
About the Diezel: although I liked its sound by itself, it was a tough one to get it to blend with other tracks...by applying the HPF I got rid of the mud but I didn't get a lot of detail though. The midrange was too two-dimensional; massive eq and compression did make it okay, but it made me sweat pretty hard compared to the Mesa. Also, it compresses (due to the distortion) very differently compared to the three other amps: the staccato parts were three-six dB louder than the classic power chords (in the chorus). It's just a little too compressed to my taste, and too slow also.
The Marshall lead parts just blended easily, only with the SM57. If I wanted a rounder tone in the bridge, I went for the Royer.
The Bogner: MASSIVE bottom...phew...didn't use it heh ... I only wish I hadn't told the guitar player...The next day he had already sold it heh ...

My 2c

(Remember) The Alamo

cdog 6th July 2005 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MusicSh*tty
I'm getting to where I dread seeing the Boogie.

Though I'm sure not all models are like this so much but the players who drag in the tremoverbs and rectos have waaaayyyy too much bass in their sound.

Then again, maybe it's the cabs.

Either way, it forces the bass to be something other than itself.


That would be the Dual Rectifier - it has some serious low end thump - but you have to realize this is a very specific tone for heavy palm muted riffing - the other Boogies don't do this.

The Diezels... something about their power amps I hate the sound of, they're biased too cold I beleive. The preamp section is definitely cool - channel 3 on the Herbert definitely rocks. I plugged it into a VHT 50/50 and it warmed up a LOT.

If your talking about "ridiculous amounts of gain" type modern tone you would be remiss to look over either the solid state Randall XL Series, which will get you in "Vugar Display of Power" territory or a Soldano SP77 with the uber high gain mod that makes it sound like a block of C4 going off inside a bees nest.

I never liked the stock JCM 800s they always sounded thin. I think cheap output transformers were the problem but again its been a while.

I have a '69 Super Lead that sounds like it has balls of steel and is louder than any PA I've ever heard. I turn it up to 2 and go deaf for a week. I really don't know why Marshall doesn't make these anymore even if they were to cost $3,000 a pop.

The new Mesa Stiletto has some of that modded JCM 800 vibe and is definitely worth checking out if you're shopping for a modern EL34 based amp.

jkthtyrt

man camel 7th July 2005 12:41 AM

a friend of mine just finished an ep and he used a mesa dual recto on one ide and a jcm 800 on the other. used a tele and an sg. gonna listen to the rough mix tonight, but he reckons it sounds huge

Jason Poulin 7th July 2005 01:11 AM

I find that using to amps at once helps achieve the tone.

The Mesa (higher gain, more fizz) will be the powerhouse of the tone giving it the most grind and silk, zip (meat)

The Marshall JCM800 (lower gain) will be the crack of the tone giving it the clean and richness (bone)


Combine the two amps at equal volumes, then adjust levels to taste. Take it real easy on your gain. There's way too much gain on these things for anything!! On my Mesa, my gain is at half way between 9 and 10 o'clock for live and in the studio I tame it down a bit to make it much more clear.

Get a signal splitter and hit both amps at once. You'll be rockin.


Be a polished guitarist too. You need to know how to attack your strings. High output pickups and heavy gauge strings.


Good luck

Jason

cultureofgreed 7th July 2005 01:32 AM

If you want that Saxophone throaty high gain sound get a Mesa. I have a Mark IV which will only be leave me if If I depart this earth. Best built and best sounding amp I have ever owned.

On the clean side of things, I can get a very good overdriven and clean Fender-type sound out of it as well. So what I end up with is a great balance.

max cooper 7th July 2005 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolandk
Sorry to stray off topic for a moment and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the JCM800 model 2203/2204 exactly the same circuitry as the JMP 2203/2204's? The reason for the change was the Rose-Morris nightmare ended and Jim wanted the newer JCM800 cosmetics to reflect the change?


To my ears, the voicing is totally different. The JCM800 seems to emphasize the upper mids (more of a 'roar' to me), while the JMP seems to 'bark' mainly in the mid. Certainly there are variations, but as a rule I find them to be totally different animals.

I've always had a Marshall, but from time to time I've thought I needed something 'sexier' and so I've bought (and usually sold) lots of other amps. Something about that characteristic 'dry' sound keeps me coming back. There are a lot of good sounding amps, but when I stand in front of a good-sounding Marshall half stack, I'm inspired.

I had a Triple Rectifier for a while, and at first I played it through a 412 Marshall cab with Vintage 30's and it sounded pretty good. Later I bought a Recto cab and that became my live rig for a while. The second time someone told me my guitar 'used to sound good' I switched back to Marshalls.

Ziggy!! 7th July 2005 04:34 AM

a step above the Randall RM-4 is the Egnater M-4. There is a new line of modules featuring 2 channels. Thats now 8 channels from 4 modules. Thats a lot of sounds.

My pick for modules would be jtm-45, vox, bassman and EG3... maybe a plexi and tweed sitting on the bench for a quick change over.

If all else fails, get an Egnater TOL-50. They go from fender clean, to plexi crunch on the first channel, and from jcm-800 heading towards mesa yet much smoother and without that top end buzz. Leads smooth enough to melt butter! Throw in a series/parallel effects loop, switchable boosts on each channel, great sounding reverb and a 10watt/50watt power switch and you have a killer amp... for onyl about $600 used.

jerdude 11th July 2005 09:38 AM

ok so the randall mts series seems like a really great idea to me. to those of you who have them.... are you absolutely satisfied with the tones? ...and do you get strange looks from gear snobs who think you are using a glorified POD? don't get pissed... just a question! jkthtyrt

ok so.... i would need to get the RM4 with 4 modules... the RT2/50 and then either a cab of any type... a randall cab... OR are any of you using the ISOLATION 12C with 1 celestion vintage 30?

could anyone comment on using the ISOLATION 12C versus other types of cabs... specifically... what would be the advantage of using one over the other.

is a good guitar cab one that outputs the tone with no coloration... or one that colorfully "enhances" the amp/tone?

i suppose opinions vary as usual... and in the end i suppose there are no rules about how great guitar sounds get on tape. what some say is crap others say sounds like bliss! freshflowe

opentune 11th July 2005 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerdude
What are THEE guitar amps to have for getting that 'modern' rock tone.

Mesa MK IV. boing

Once you´re familiar with all it´s features, IMHO, you have an amp
which is as flexible as the Randall MTS stuff. Perhaps even more
flexible.

But like i said, only if you take the time to find out about the secrets
of all these knobs and switches.
The MK IV equalisation is one of the most powerful tone-shaping tools
i´ve ever seen on an amp.

It´s well worth taking the time to find out how the EQ and the buttons which
control the power-amp section interact.

Any questions?

RoundBadge 11th July 2005 10:28 AM

I usually get the tone with any combination and old Marshall Plexi/jcm 800 /Bogner exctasy/Boogie setups with a littlelabs PCP.dependent on player /guitar/song.
the Diezel stuff is cool too.
I have a JCM 900 50 watter dual ch that's gathering dust in the corner.

the1Hub 11th July 2005 11:15 AM

i dont care for the Recto sound. if i wanted something similar id go with a vht, Krank or bogner instead. i have a couple of old mesa's and a tsl marshall. every time a guitarist comes in with their rectofiers they allways end up using one of my rigs instead. i think people by into the hype of the mesa name without really listening to them. i think mesa has made some great amps, (mark II's Studio .22's, Triaxsis, mark IV's, DC's, Heart Breakers, ect.) i think they have been over shadowed by the hype of the rectofiers. one thing that i think mesa dose do well consitianly is their cabs. personal favorite is a cab they used to make called 4812. it has four 8in and 1 12in vintage 30.

last Nu Metal guitarist i recorded used my studio .22 through a mesa single 12in wide body, 3/4 cab with a greenback. and 2 tube screamers on the front end. mabey theres some hope for Nu metalers after all. hooppie

covert 11th July 2005 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerdude
ok so the randall mts series seems like a really great idea to me. to those of you who have them.... are you absolutely satisfied with the tones? ...and do you get strange looks from gear snobs who think you are using a glorified POD? don't get pissed... just a question!

i suppose opinions vary as usual... and in the end i suppose there are no rules about how great guitar sounds get on tape. what some say is crap others say sounds like bliss! freshflowe

I'm really very pleased with the sounds from the Randall. See my posts in other threads on the topic.

cletus 11th July 2005 10:30 PM

I own a dual rectifier and a measa cab with vintage 30's. At verious points I've gotten it to sound good but lately am not to impressed. I really dug the sound when I first got it and alot of guitar players that had the tone I liked used them. But I've found it almost impossible to get any kind of tone that I like out of it these days. Taste changes over time I guess. A vintage marshal or a hiwatt would be my next choice if I were to buy a new amp.