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RSMITH123 28th December 2002 11:21 PM

Yet another SSL question...
 
Yeah, I know, been there done that.

However, I'm still working on the been there, personally. If anyone remembers from previous quests for information of mine, I am on the verge of building from scratch based on PTHD. I last posted asking for advice on what makes a successful studio and got some awesome help on the little things that can make a big difference. Thanks again for that.

Someone did make a valid point: "If you don't have an SSL, why would I want to come to Houston and record?" I have been looking at the plans and talking with the boss and can squeeze a console in if under 100K. Realistically, as close to 50 as possible and 75 being middle of the road.

I called SSL and told them up front what I was hoping to find out (used consoles under 100K) and was suprised that I got a call back. Much to my surprise, I was told that it shouldn't be a problem to find an older console for the money with 40-48 channels or so, depending on what's available. The SSL dude mentioned 2 boards in particular, one in Dallas and one in Atlanta. The main draw back on these is that is no physical automation (flyin' faders) and of course the age.

Also in the back of my mind is a conversation I had with the Neotek person...drawing a blank... and seem to remember that I can get a NEW Elite II for 50-60 decked out. Couple that with the mentions here and elsewhere of how these consoles are underrated and I find myself in a quandry <sp?>.

Do I play the name game and buy a used console so I CAN say, Yes... we have an SSL or do I swallow the pride and buy a console that is brand spankin new with more features? Is there another solution?

I don't know. AND I am not asking anyone to make the decision for me. What I would like is any comments or interaction that would spur me to make a decision and feel good about it.

So... any thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

thethrillfactor 28th December 2002 11:46 PM

Re: Yet another SSL question...
 
Quote:

Originally posted by RSMITH123
Yeah, I know, been there done that.

However, I'm still working on the been there, personally. If anyone remembers from previous quests for information of mine, I am on the verge of building from scratch based on PTHD. I last posted asking for advice on what makes a successful studio and got some awesome help on the little things that can make a big difference. Thanks again for that.

Someone did make a valid point: "If you don't have an SSL, why would I want to come to Houston and record?" I have been looking at the plans and talking with the boss and can squeeze a console in if under 100K. Realistically, as close to 50 as possible and 75 being middle of the road.

I called SSL and told them up front what I was hoping to find out (used consoles under 100K) and was suprised that I got a call back. Much to my surprise, I was told that it shouldn't be a problem to find an older console for the money with 40-48 channels or so, depending on what's available. The SSL dude mentioned 2 boards in particular, one in Dallas and one in Atlanta. The main draw back on these is that is no physical automation (flyin' faders) and of course the age.

Also in the back of my mind is a conversation I had with the Neotek person...drawing a blank... and seem to remember that I can get a NEW Elite II for 50-60 decked out. Couple that with the mentions here and elsewhere of how these consoles are underrated and I find myself in a quandry <sp?>.

Do I play the name game and buy a used console so I CAN say, Yes... we have an SSL or do I swallow the pride and buy a console that is brand spankin new with more features? Is there another solution?

I don't know. AND I am not asking anyone to make the decision for me. What I would like is any comments or interaction that would spur me to make a decision and feel good about it.

So... any thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

Is the studio for inside productions or is it an all out clients/booking facility?

If its the latter, what kind of clients are you looking for? What genre of music?

I'll tell you right now if it is definitely the latter, than there is no question. SSL will bring you clients, no question. If its an inside type of production facility, than you can get away with anything you like.

But one thing I can tell you right now, if you are building an all out client/booking facility(major labels and such), and you are already having problems with financial decisions, than you are off on the wrong foot already. If you have to rob Pete to pay Paul, than I would suggest your investor maybe go in a different direction(especially if he is your friend and you want to keep the friendship). heh

There is no money in the studio business!!! Unless you have a niche place(ala specialty market/music) where you can keep your overhead low and ammenities are not important. If the investor is looking to recoup or make something on top(I would if I were investing in any business) than he better seriously consider it. Its rare to make money in this business the first few years. Most guys do it cause they are either:

1)Foolish
2)Have hopelessly romantic notions about this business
3)Are looking for a humongous tax write off
4)Have temporary insanity mezed

I think if its business, you must run it as so. I think that's where a lot of studios go wrong, they think they can be the "coolest"guy on the block, at the same time try to overcharge you for a DAT or a CD. If this is serious operation, than you are going to make decisions that are not popular with everybody(especially on the forum). We won't be paying your bills,your staff,techs, advertisizing costs, etc.

All the 2 cents I have to offer on this subject.jkthtyrt

chrisso 29th December 2002 02:19 PM

I agree with everything just said.
I second that a Neotek cannot compare to an SSL - and I'm not a big fan of SSL either.

e-cue 29th December 2002 03:53 PM

Re: Re: Yet another SSL question...
 
Quote:

Originally posted by thethrillfactor
Is the studio for inside productions or is it an all out clients/booking facility?

I'll tell you right now if it is definitely the latter, than there is no question. SSL will bring you clients, no question. If its an inside type of production facility, than you can get away with anything you like.

I love the neotek line, and I'm sure I'll own one someday. When I do get one, I don't plan on booking it for any other engineer than myself. But when I fly to another town and the A&R asks me what studio I want to work at, I usually just say "Any neve or SSL room will work" (unless I already know the studios I prefer. There's a reason I do this: Not only am I comfortable with these consoles, but the assumption that if they have an SSL or NEVE, they must have the rest of their stuff down usually holds true. If someone says "Well, this studio has a neotek", although I love the boards, I'm mentally picturing a basement.

RSMITH123 29th December 2002 09:33 PM

Honesty is what I asked for and I appreciate it. Thanks SM for the details on the setup as well.

RSMITH123 29th December 2002 09:52 PM

OK, where would you guys buy a 2nd hand SSL?

Is there an advantage to buying from SSL?

Is there a good dealer for used consoles? I have visited many sites featuring used boards but have you guys bought from anyone you would call 'SOLID'?

Would you buy from an individual and if so, how in god's name do you find out who has one for sale?

My initial tendency would be to buy from SSL but my gut tells me that there may be more to gain service-wise from a dealer as the SSL dude told me that they really just locate the boards.

Oh, in response to the questions... we will cut our teeth on a couple of internal projects and work our way outside. It will be geared towards alternative to pop styles but I am shooting to be as versatile as possible. Eventually, I would like to be known as a good available facility but I am in no hurry. The learning curve will take some time. If I laid it all out, you would have a good laugh and maybe a cry or two.

I was expecting everything to take off in October but things have been delayed possibly to February. I really appreciate the help and time taken to answer what i would call some silly questions considering the depth around here at GS.

Many thanks! and I will post details when things get underway.

thethrillfactor 29th December 2002 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RSMITH123
Honesty is what I asked for and I appreciate it. Thanks SM for the details on the setup as well.
Hey RSMITH,

I know some of the advice might seem a little brutal. But this business(studio business) makes you that way. Anyone who has owned,designed,managed,engineered or even assisted at a top flight studio will tell you the same.

The music business is at a different place in history right now. There is no space for development/experimentation. You have to get it right off the bat, if not you will be out pretty quickly. This goes especially for top flight studios where the competition is fiercest and there is no room for financial flexibility.

Good luck in your decision.

e-cue 29th December 2002 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RSMITH123
OK, where would you guys buy a 2nd hand SSL?
NOT ebay! tut

RSMITH123 29th December 2002 11:34 PM

LOL, I already checked there... kiddin'

thrill... Yeah I was prepared and to be honest I prefer the brutal truth. thanks.

toledo3 30th December 2002 12:22 AM

I'm not trying to get off topic...anyone tried out the Audient mid size console? I know it's a"lower bracket" than what you all are taliking about...

thethrillfactor 30th December 2002 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RSMITH123
OK, where would you guys buy a 2nd hand SSL?

Is there an advantage to buying from SSL?

Is there a good dealer for used consoles? I have visited many sites featuring used boards but have you guys bought from anyone you would call 'SOLID'?

Would you buy from an individual and if so, how in god's name do you find out who has one for sale?

My initial tendency would be to buy from SSL but my gut tells me that there may be more to gain service-wise from a dealer as the SSL dude told me that they really just locate the boards.

Oh, in response to the questions... we will cut our teeth on a couple of internal projects and work our way outside. It will be geared towards alternative to pop styles but I am shooting to be as versatile as possible. Eventually, I would like to be known as a good available facility but I am in no hurry. The learning curve will take some time. If I laid it all out, you would have a good laugh and maybe a cry or two.

I was expecting everything to take off in October but things have been delayed possibly to February. I really appreciate the help and time taken to answer what i would call some silly questions considering the depth around here at GS.

Many thanks! and I will post details when things get underway.


Dave Malepour at ProAudio Design and Vic C in Canada are the two most known guys.

Talk to both. Dave and PAD are the used dealers for SSL in USA. You pay extra, but you will know that your used SSL will work.

Vic C is great too, he will probably be a little cheaper(in Canada the American dollar goes far). And Canada is not too far away to see the console.

RSMITH123 30th December 2002 08:00 PM

Thrill...

Thanks for the lead. I had just talked to Paul Stewart at PAD before reading your post so the confirmation is good as well as the warning about the cost.

As I go into this, I hope I don't end up with a butt-ugly console for that kind of money. I have seen some scary pictures out there on used equipment sites.

BTW, do you agree with SM about no less than 48 channels?

Also, is there a prefered EQ component? I get the impression that there may be a few options.

And lastly, is a G computer w/ 3-1/2" drive what I should be looking for?

Many Thanks


G-man, for what it's worth, I have heard (2nd hand info) that D&R and especially Neotek consoles are much better mid-range units.

thethrillfactor 30th December 2002 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RSMITH123
Thrill...

Thanks for the lead. I had just talked to Paul Stewart at PAD before reading your post so the confirmation is good as well as the warning about the cost.

As I go into this, I hope I don't end up with a butt-ugly console for that kind of money. I have seen some scary pictures out there on used equipment sites.

BTW, do you agree with SM about no less than 48 channels?

Also, is there a prefered EQ component? I get the impression that there may be a few options.

And lastly, is a G computer w/ 3-1/2" drive what I should be looking for?

Many Thanks


G-man, for what it's worth, I have heard (2nd hand info) that D&R and especially Neotek consoles are much better mid-range units.

RSMITH,

I totally agree with SM.kfhkh

I thought about it after i posted the first time.

Minimum 64-72 channels if you want top flight mixing to be going on in your place. You are going to need at least 48 channels of PT returns. I know this sounds nuts, but I rarely mix a pop/R&B song in PT that is less than 64 tracks and if I have to hit the console, i am going to hit at least 48 tracks. The rest of the channels on the console are for the mults,splits and effect returns. That's why you see such big consoles in the top studios, a mix will literally take up 128 channels on the console and sometimes that's not even enough!!! mezed

If you are going older SSL go for the Black EQ's. The new 4000G+ have all black EQ's, they have a sound that can get both crunchy and grimy(good for Hard Rock and Rap). They are the most requested SSL EQ' today.

Ideal older SSL would be a 4000 series with Raven Black EQ's,G+ auto, and Ultimation. You can mod them later if you wish. There are tons of mods you can do to an SSL to get it to sound better. You are probably thinking why would I want to mod it, well when you are trying to squeeze 128 channels of info(music) down a narrow pipe like SSL(2 Buss), sometimes lets say the sound starts to collapse some(understatement).wworried

But the great thing about the SSL, when you "cream" it starts to go into a new level.rollz

By the way a G computer will work fine. jkthtyrt

chrisso 30th December 2002 09:01 PM

Did you all know that Alan Smart, of compressor fame, produces some SSL mods? - including a 16ch expansion chasis.

http://www.smartresearch.co.uk/

I guess you probably did.

RSMITH123 30th December 2002 09:06 PM

LOL...
Well, I did sh*t a brick when I realized that this would be neccessary and I guess I will have to sh*t a few more for a matching set.

I knew SM was right on but needed to hear it again. Don't ask why... just a wee bit nervous with the commitment. Everyone and especially you two have provided some great insight and truth to the situation.

OK, so
1) 56 channels or as many as I can afford in a larger frame if possible...even if short loaded
2) black EQ's
3) at least a G Computer

Well, there goes my 50k. Sounds more like double. Sheesh. Now where did my budget go... oh yeah, right out the window. I guess I'll have to save some money by settling with an SM57, Tube MP, 3630 signal chain. and cut the lexicon to a zoom.
hidz

No seriously, I expect many surprises and can bob and weave with the best of them. Thanks for the honesty. I have to go work my mojo on the numbers now.kfhkh

chrisso 30th December 2002 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RSMITH123

Well, there goes my 50k. Sounds more like double. Sheesh. Now where did my budget go...


I just had a very quick look at a couple of the most reputable UK dealers websites. An SSL with roughly that spec is in the high $80k's over here.

chrisso 30th December 2002 09:35 PM

P.S.
Funky Junk are selling an SSL for £14,500 in their New Year sale!

RSMITH123 30th December 2002 09:45 PM

Chrisso,

Thanks!!! I did the 'smart' thing and checked out the link to Alan Smart. Cool stuff.

Just out of curiosity, anyone done or know of a mod with the expansion chasis he makes?

nukmusic 23rd August 2005 03:38 AM

Thank Jules for the search feature kfhkh

just adding to this old topic cause we're at the same crossroads. We have the connections to make the studio work. The focus will be, continue producing tracks like always, but now offer a nice place to recording and mix, along with selling R&B/Rap music. We have been getting great results with mics/preamps into Digi-001/002 vai apogee rosetta 800's, then transfers to large studios for mixing.

I've been researching the net for info on SSL's. I haven't had much "ME TIME" on too many to just practiced and learn more. Time is money mezed My time on them, is like when you mother changes little sister/brother's ****ty damper and she lets to throw it out all the time, but very seldom lets to sprinkle on the powder and all the other good stuff heh heh

I've read the info above and several other posts. I kinda understand a few things, but its good to ask questions and get feedback for better clarity from users. And I also get great mixes on lower ranged mixing boards. I just wanted to know the pro/cons with the differences in all the SSL 4000, 6000, 8000 types.

I see:
Classic
E
E/G
G
G+
E/G/G+
TR
Ultr
etc, etc
my first thought is some are just upgraded boards. I see some with TR, some with Ultimation, some with a difference # of aux/buses, some with stereo input channels, some needing reconditioning

I got the AWS900 info from Phil at SSL in Cali and man....... $85, plus this, plus that, plus this is a lot of cash for 24 channels. I emailed him and wanting for a call or reply. A used SSL 56-64 faders sounds better in a way. Still have to add in the monthly Electric bill though jkthtyrt But this seems like a real good move for us. Just trying to make the best purchase, so research is the key.

Thanks for the time folks.

nukmusic 23rd August 2005 06:38 AM

found most of my answer

Quote:

Originally Posted by clip6
Boy.. I've been aay a while and look what breaks out...!

Can't remember all the points I wanted to address while I was reading through, but here goes:

Switching individual VCAs out: Not unless you have ultimation. Ultimation is the only automation that posesses both VCA and regular audio path faders on G-series. -It cannot be retrofitted to E-series computers, though it can be fitted to an E-series console as long as the computer is a G-series. Ultimation. -Tricky beast. -Sounds nicer I grant you -but very slightly. -Add to that that the VCAs don't track the linear fader gains unless you're pretty ritualistic about doing fader calibrations... frequently...!!!

There's been a little confusion about when the VCA is in or not with Ultimation, rule to explain it: Motors on is always non-VCA, unless you're trying to "trim" a previous move and hear it in real-time. Because you're trying to simulate one move added to nother move, and the fader can't show you what it will sound like (because you've got your digit on the fader cap!) it switches to VCA. -For all times when the fader is either playing back or in absolute write, there is no need to use VCAs, so the VCAs are switched out.

Basically the computer uses the best-quality path that it can at all times, only using the VCA when there is the possibility of a knob position/gain conflict. -Even in "motors off" and automation off, the VCA is bypassed unless the fader is a subgroup slave, since -again- there is no conflict between knob position and gain setting, so use the cleaner path.

The above applies to 9000 (J and K series) automation, even though it isn't correctly called ultimation. All 9000 consoles have VCA/motorised fader automation.

E/G series: the later the better. If it's a real G-Plus you're fine. A real G-plus has an LCD phase-scope in the meterbridge, and a "G+" logo on the metalwork, also had an infra-red (rebadged "Brainstorm electronics") talkback remote controller and was wired with oxygen-free-copper signal cabling through out.

Maintenance issues: Avoid plasma Bargraph metering. -Sure, the spectra-vue looks cool, but it's noisier, and you'll get real tired, real fast of replacing the plasma tubes. -If you do get one, at least do yourself the service of turning off the 250V supplies at night... You'll dramatically extend the tube life.

E-series Brown-knob EQ is okay, Black knob adds the ability to bypass the hi-pass lo-pass filters and is therefore slightly preferred. The G-series EQ pretty much stinks. You can't select bell/shelf on the high & low bands, you can't deep-notch with it, and it's generally disfavoured. It has an orange knob to distinguish it. -I manufactured an aftermarket EQ (Based on a Neve topology, believe it or not!) for the SSL back in the eighties, sold a few but never got rich... (despite everyone telling me it was how I was going to make my fortune!!!)

Okay, I've engineered some pretty successful tunes in the past, and I did most on an SSL, but I'm really a tech nowadays, and a little less in-touch with some of the offerings that people are using, so I will try and limit my 'opinions' to technically-supportable comments:

TL072s... basically not in the audio path. there were transformerless mic pres and transformer mic pres in the E-series. I keep hearing that the overwhelming impression of the consoles sound for many people is like a 'soft-focus' on a camera lens... the (Jensen) transformer inputs were definately softer, but are great in RF-hostile environments, though unless you're between taxi-despatch-transmitters in Manhatten, you likely won't find that a problem. The transformerless mic pres are a little clearer, no way of telling unless you look at the daughter cards on teh modules... TX units were the 82E01, TX-less were the 82E149, but the prescence or abscence of a silver transformer can should be the giveaway! both were fully-variable gain. -G-series had switched-gain mic pres, with TX-less inputs and slightly different line amps (proper instrumentation-amplifier front-end).

A later G or G-plus will have benefitted from the many small improvements that were implemented throughout the consoles 20-something year production span (a pretty staggering lifespan for any major production console), such as quasi-balanced ('ground-sensing') buses, separated grounds for control/logic and audio... many had split buses at the center section, to double the aux send capacity. -These consoles are the real bargains, because their prices have been dragged down simply because they are "G-series" and other E/G consoles are selling for $35k... unfortunately, the older early-eighties consoles will need just about every routing button replaced, six switches in the I/O module (Pan in, phase, pad, split, Insert in and Insert Pre). Some folks do it, others decide to just sell the board cheap... It's like buying a used car: peole generally don't rebuild a car before they sell it, they sell it so they get rid of the hassle.

Courtesy of "ssltech" recpit forum archives


cedarstudios 23rd August 2005 07:32 AM

I am in a similiar boat. I am looking around for a used ssl (most likely a 56-72ch 4000 E/G+ w/ black eq) for a new commerical facility. However, I was wondering how important Ultimation is in garnering outside producers/mixers/clients. It obviously would be a fairly big price jump for a console fitted with Ultimation and I wanted to know if this price difference (if I can fit it in the budget) would be beneficial in the future. Can a non-Ultimation SSL attract and suffice the needs of major projects, or is Ultimation a necessity in type of situation?

gainreduction 23rd August 2005 10:31 AM

Here's a dealer that's selling Peter Gabriels SSL's from real World Studios. My guess is they're well maintained. The dealer has a good reputation around here too.

www.peterduncan.com

juniorhifikit 23rd August 2005 09:43 PM

I'm still having trouble understanding WHY anyone would want to do this? If you have enough clients to warrent that kind of investment, that will basically determine what brand of console you get, and you just go get it - simple economics. If you don't have clients now but hope to grow some in the future, so you're going to scrape enough pennies together to get a B-flat SSL...


Good luck, and I mean that honestly. I know many who have tried this and failed - and it wasn't for lack of talent.

audioez 24th August 2005 12:54 AM

it might help to have some experience with an iron; how to clean the P&G(faders), change some LED's and light bulbs, the 4000 use 24v and 36v bulbs, or at least pay some tech monkey a lot of $$$ to do it for you. Also get your self a good vacum that's designed for elcetronics to keep your investment dust free.

nukmusic 24th August 2005 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juniorhifikit
I'm still having trouble understanding WHY anyone would want to do this? If you have enough clients to warrent that kind of investment, that will basically determine what brand of console you get, and you just go get it - simple economics. If you don't have clients now but hope to grow some in the future, so you're going to scrape enough pennies together to get a B-flat SSL...


Good luck, and I mean that honestly. I know many who have tried this and failed - and it wasn't for lack of talent.


For us, the clients are there. But the sessions have to be taken to another studio to be mixed "OTB" because that's what most prefer. jkthtyrt So if the gear was in house to mix "OTB".............bam!

grahluk 24th August 2005 03:00 PM

Just one more thought on cost/maintenance. For the price you're looking to find one for it may need a thorough going over. That's great if you or one of your partners is/was a tech. You can save the labor $ of refurbishing the console yourself. Expect either a couple months of solid day in day out bench work (@ one person doing it) before you break that champagne bottle over the bow. The other way if the console is mostly good is having a channel or 2 out of the console in rotation as you fix it as it flies. Your choice wether an empty slot or two at the end of the console will affect your nascent image. What will greatly affect your bottom line is being known as a studio that has an SSL that's dodgy. People will only come to you grudgingly or as last resort if the word is your console has noisy intermittent switches, dead faders, and tons of switch lights out. In that case all your investment and hard work may be for naught and the big console will be the anchor that sends your studio to the lightless depths. All in all just factor the console's condition and maintenance into that acquisition price. If your crew are just mixer pilots it may be better to spend the extra bones for a console from someone like PAD that has been gone over. Then again you may find one that's been fanatically maintained but the owner is taking a bath. Oh yeah find out wether the board will comes with service goodies like extender boards, extra faders, channel modules, cleaning paraphenalia, and such.

thethrillfactor 24th August 2005 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nukmusic
For us, the clients are there. But the sessions have to be taken to another studio to be mixed "OTB" because that's what most prefer. jkthtyrt So if the gear was in house to mix "OTB".............bam!

I am curious.

Is this prefered by the:

1) Clients?

2) Engineers?

3)Producers?

Its just amazing to know that there are still clients that ask for SSL or know the difference. cellfone

CapstanGreg 24th August 2005 04:26 PM

I have a friend in New Orleans selling an SSL... I don't know all the specs but I can put you in contact with him if you are interested.

nukmusic 24th August 2005 06:40 PM

grahluk, thanks for the info. I have always believed in doing things right, the 1st time. I, myself will be the one to learn how overtime, only because I've always been good at stuff like that. If i see it done once, I can do it. I can't count the number of butt spankings i got as i child for disassembling electronic items and putting them back together. 90% of the time they work as usual heh heh even if i couldn't sit down for a while.

Thrill, I may have over stated "most". IMO, ITB works and its a cheaper setup. Il love has fast you could go from one project to the next in the click of a mouse. peachh But a lot of cats are excited to see audio gear like most gearslutz. I think its more of the "WOW" factor for most or "So and So used this", and a "I prefer" factor for the others, and the "whatever man" factor for the rest. Some clients spend money, but you never hear anything about their music after they leave. I guess its nice to have money to waste on a "try to get rich quick" project. jkthtyrt In our situation, its a "why not" thing. But we are doing our homework to see if its really worth it in the long run. As I stated before the AMS900 would be real nice. "Kinda" like the best of both worlds, won't get ALL the clients to mix in house, but it will increase the number that do. But the dam price of it is about the some as a used 4000 with more channels and compressors. wworried But a used 4000 consumes more electricity, needs more cooling(A/C), and may require more up-keep. So the decision for us to make is, will the increase client bookings out weight the increase costs vs just getting the AMS900. The C200 info looks good too, but I don't know much else about it or how it compares to the other SSL's in sound and price.

Some questions I ask on GS are merely for secordary confirmation or should i say, a better understanding. So thats to the folks that spend time to give input to other gearslutz. I will pass the knowledge on.
and I need to learn more about post production........Louisiana seems like it's moving up in this area.

thethrillfactor 24th August 2005 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nukmusic
grahluk, thanks for the info. I have always believed in doing things right, the 1st time. I, myself will be the one to learn how overtime, only because I've always been good at stuff like that. If i see it done once, I can do it. I can't count the number of butt spankings i got as i child for disassembling electronic items and putting them back together. 90% of the time they work as usual heh heh even if i couldn't sit down for a while.

Thrill, I may have over stated "most". IMO, ITB works and its cheaper peachh But a lot of cats are excited to see audio gear like most gearslutz. I think its more of the "WOW" factor for most or "So and So used this", and a "I prefer" factor for the others, and the "whatever man" factor for the rest. Some clients spend money, but you never hear anything about their music after they leave. I guess its nice to have money to waste on a "try to get rich quick" project. jkthtyrt In our situation, its a "why not" thing. But we are doing our homework to see if its really worth it in the long run. As I stated before the AMS900 would be real nice. "Kinda" like the best of both worlds, won't get ALL the clients to mix in house, but it will increase the number that do. But the dam price of it is about the some as a used 4000 with more channels and compressors. wworried But a used 4000 comsumes more electricity, need more cooling(A/C) and may require more up-keep. So the decision for us to make is, will the increase client bookings out weight the increase costs vs just getting the AMS900. The C200 info looks good too, but I don't know much else about it or how it compares to the other SSL's in sound and price.

Some questions I ask on GS are merely for secordary confirmation or should i say, a better understanding. So thats to the folks that spend time to give input to other gearslutz. I will pass the knowledge on.

My advice is to do a mix on both and see what works best for you.

In your case it sounds like the clients don't really have a preference so basically it comes down to you and your team.

And work will go out no matter what you try.

Clients most of the time will go with the name "guy".

Its the nature of the business, go with the sure thing.

If you go with the bigger console yeah you'll need a seperate machine room that's properly cooled but guess what, even if you are doing the DAW thing you should have this anyway.

With the amount of noise generated by 3-4 hard drives,the computer and the like its a necessity.