Gearslutz

Gearslutz (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/)
-   Songwriting (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/songwriting/)
-   -   Max Martins Powerful secrets to melodic math (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/songwriting/1327643-max-martins-powerful-secrets-melodic-math.html)

antepop 3rd October 2020 02:25 PM

Max Martins Powerful secrets to melodic math
 
Hi,

I've written a article about how to Write better melodies like max Martin.

https://www.musicnerdrevolution.com/...s-melodic-math

theblue1 3rd October 2020 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antepop (Post 15015522)
Hi,

I've written a article about how to Write better melodies like max Martin.

https://www.musicnerdrevolution.com/...s-melodic-math

Sounds interesting!

I'll have to check that out. I don't much care for Martin's melodies, to the extent that I've been exposed to them. I think it could be valuable to understand their nature.

Quote:

One of his main characteristics is the use of popular children’s songs.
I find that pretty easy to believe. I've always complained about the puerile, sing-songy quality of his songs.

Even though I don't like Martin's music much, I did think your observation about working melodic elements from the refrain/chorus melody into the verse arrangement is a tactic that can be used to good advantage.

Thanks for the article. kfhkh

antepop 3rd October 2020 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1 (Post 15016155)
Sounds interesting!

I'll have to check that out. I don't much care for Martin's melodies, to the extent that I've been exposed to them. I think it could be valuable to understand their nature.

I find that pretty easy to believe. I've always complained about the puerile, sing-songy quality of his songs.

The melodic math formula is something that is a great tool to learn if you like the music or not. 😊

theblue1 3rd October 2020 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antepop (Post 15016167)
The melodic math formula is something that is a great tool to learn if you like the music or not. 😊

While I found it all interesting, I'm not sure I really got the 'math' part of your article, though. I guess I was expecting something about melody and harmony as seen through the 'mathematical relationships' in those melodies and harmonies.

antepop 3rd October 2020 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1 (Post 15016190)
While I found it all interesting, I'm not sure I really got the 'math' part of your article, though. I guess I was expecting something about melody and harmony as seen through the 'mathematical relationships' in those melodies and harmonies.

If you press play on the video in the blog post you will get more explanation of the formulas. 😊👍

theblue1 3rd October 2020 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antepop (Post 15016199)
If you press play on the video in the blog post you will get more explanation of the formulas. 😊👍

Thanks, antepop! I'll check that out.

Even if I don't share your enthusiasm for Martin's work (I guess I'm some kind of minority there ;) ), I like to think we can learn valuable lessons from all sorts of stuff -- and, of course, as one exposes oneself to less-familiar music, one sometimes finds more to like that wasn't obvious at first glance. kfhkh

Herr Weiss 3rd October 2020 08:59 PM

There Are No Secrets!

Understanding Counterpoint is fundamental. Once the 'rules' are assimilated, you will have a solid foundation; second to none.

Now, this knowledge will not necessarily be of any use if your brain cells are stagnant. You need to have a functioning antenna in order to pick up all the frequencies out there.

Traveling and visiting new cultures do wonders.
Any predetermined bias will not work in your favor.



~HW

antepop 4th October 2020 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1 (Post 15016228)
Thanks, antepop! I'll check that out.

Even if I don't share your enthusiasm for Martin's work (I guess I'm some kind of minority there ;) ), I like to think we can learn valuable lessons from all sorts of stuff -- and, of course, as one exposes oneself to less-familiar music, one sometimes finds more to like that wasn't obvious at first glance. kfhkh

Thanks and that's the way to get development. :)

theblue1 4th October 2020 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr Weiss (Post 15016276)
There Are No Secrets!

Understanding Counterpoint is fundamental. Once the 'rules' are assimilated, you will have a solid foundation; second to none.

Now, this knowledge will not necessarily be of any use if your brain cells are stagnant. You need to have a functioning antenna in order to pick up all the frequencies out there.

Traveling and visiting new cultures do wonders.
Any predetermined bias will not work in your favor.



~HW

I was just taking a look at this... Looks like fun. But, since I never got beyond the decoding stage of notation reading/writing, any approach I make will be more guitar-in-hand.

http://musictheory.pugetsound.edu/mt...stSpecies.html

Deleted 222f60c 4th October 2020 09:15 AM

JS Bach copied Max Martin and added in some math stuff for his mixtapes

antepop 4th October 2020 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleted 222f60c (Post 15017300)
JS Bach copied Max Martin and added in some math stuff for his mixtapes

Is it so...😅

Herr Weiss 4th October 2020 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1 (Post 15016927)
[...] I was just taking a look at this... Looks like fun. [...]

Yes, Counterpoint is a lot of fun!
Luckly for us, there are tons of information available.

This one is a good read; enjoy.

http://alanbelkinmusic.com/bk.C/C.pdf

Have a wonderful day my friend!


~HW

Sharp11 4th October 2020 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by antepop (Post 15015522)
Hi,

I've written a article about how to Write better melodies like max Martin.

https://www.musicnerdrevolution.com/...s-melodic-math

If you’re going to write an article that claims mathematical secrets to a songwriter’s success, you might try actually including a mathematical formula of some sort, or at least hint to it - everything in your piece is common to practically every popular song ever written. I’m certainly not going to watch an additional video to try and find the point you’re trying to make.

You might also take a course in better writing - you have a lot of unnecessary words and you stray off point quite a bit. There’s a structure and form to writing an educational article, just as there is a song - it’s a “sell” and you need to learn it. People turn away unless you get down to business.

I’m glad you admire max martin, but fwiw, I have a former student who did a detailed analysis of Max’s songwriting - he really was able to break it down into steps. I don’t agree with this approach, but if you’re going to break it down, then break it down.

theblue1 4th October 2020 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr Weiss (Post 15017815)
Yes, Counterpoint is a lot of fun!
Luckly for us, there are tons of information available.

This one is a good read; enjoy.

http://alanbelkinmusic.com/bk.C/C.pdf

Have a wonderful day my friend!


~HW

Thanks, HW!

I'm at a point in my exploration where looking at these 'rules' is providing food for thought and informing my realtime exploration and improvisation on the guitar.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharp11 (Post 15018031)
If you’re going to write an article that claims mathematical secrets to a songwriter’s success, you might try actually including a mathematical formula of some sort, or at least hint to it [...]

I have to admit that I was somewhat disappointed on this front, as well. I was kind of hoping for some specific insights that might help inform my own experiments and writing. Sharp's 'Dutch Uncle' advice above is probably worth some dispassionate consideration. The best, the most constructive criticism, can sometimes be a little uncomfortable, but listening and considering such criticism is often the way forward to either refining and improving one's own efforts or confirming that one prefers to go one's own way.

antepop 4th October 2020 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1 (Post 15018322)
Thanks, HW!

I'm at a point in my exploration where looking at these 'rules' is providing food for thought and informing my realtime exploration and improvisation on the guitar.


I have to admit that I was somewhat disappointed on this front, as well. I was kind of hoping for some specific insights that might help inform my own experiments and writing. Sharp's 'Dutch Uncle' advice above is probably worth some dispassionate consideration. The best, the most constructive criticism, can sometimes be a little uncomfortable, but listening and considering such criticism is often the way forward to either refining and improving one's own efforts or confirming that one prefers to go one's own way.

This was an interesting way this turned out to be.
I wanted to share an article and in the video Max Martin talks about how he does it.
I do more examples.

I wanted to share an article and a video that many songwriters love and thanking me for doing.

Hey, it is music. 😊

Stay safe.

RyanM 4th October 2020 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharp11 (Post 15018031)
If you’re going to write an article that claims mathematical secrets to a songwriter’s success, you might try actually including a mathematical formula of some sort, or at least hint to it - everything in your piece is common to practically every popular song ever written. I’m certainly not going to watch an additional video to try and find the point you’re trying to make.

You might also take a course in better writing - you have a lot of unnecessary words and you stray off point quite a bit. There’s a structure and form to writing an educational article, just as there is a song - it’s a “sell” and you need to learn it. People turn away unless you get down to business.

I’m glad you admire max martin, but fwiw, I have a former student who did a detailed analysis of Max’s songwriting - he really was able to break it down into steps. I don’t agree with this approach, but if you’re going to break it down, then break it down.

I think Max Martin himself calls it melodic math, or at least I've seen the term in other analyses of his work.

antepop 4th October 2020 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanM (Post 15018398)
I think Max Martin himself calls it melodic math, or at least I've seen the term in other analyses of his work.

Yes, he calls it that, and it is a tool to get more clarity in the melodies.

huub 4th October 2020 09:50 PM

Wow, that article has literally zero content.

Well, it has a lot of words. :)

Sharp11 4th October 2020 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theblue1 (Post 15018322)
Thanks, HW!

I'm at a point in my exploration where looking at these 'rules' is providing food for thought and informing my realtime exploration and improvisation on the guitar.


I have to admit that I was somewhat disappointed on this front, as well. I was kind of hoping for some specific insights that might help inform my own experiments and writing. Sharp's 'Dutch Uncle' advice above is probably worth some dispassionate consideration. The best, the most constructive criticism, can sometimes be a little uncomfortable, but listening and considering such criticism is often the way forward to either refining and improving one's own efforts or confirming that one prefers to go one's own way.

Sometimes you just have to tell it like it is .... there’s too much sycophantic writing in this industry as it is, at least give us some intellectual content.

chessparov2.0 4th October 2020 10:54 PM

Thankfully, I recently tested "Negative" for being sycophantic.

BTW I think Max's brothers Dean and Steve, both did great too.
Chris