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-   -   inexperienced at club sound. need advice :) (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/live-sound/1286118-inexperienced-club-sound-need-advice.html)

pbalzano1 5th November 2019 08:15 PM

inexperienced at club sound. need advice :)
 
Hi, my name is Philip Balzano and I'm a singer.
I recently started working at a cafe that uses 2 flying QSC K12s and Mackie 1501 sub. The sound was fine for a while but last month I started to struggle with voice problems. It seems I was straining too much and my cords would dry up really fast. I found something that might be the cause of the problem but need to ask you Pros if I'm on the right track. I tried to figure out why I was getting more feedback when before there was none. What was happening was that I heard myself differently and thought it was just a matter of raising the volume but when I did, it would feedback. So, I left the volume low and kept straining to hear myself. I always position myself as close to halfway between the speakers as possible and behind them so I'm only getting reflected sound. We have an old Turbosound Milan that we use as a floor wedge but it sounds so terrible that I just use it to play some music for pitch reference. I often stroll out to the audience and noticed that the sound was different out in the room as well. I looked at the positioning of the K12s and the first thing I noticed was, that the management had placed a video screen about 6" in front of the speaker right where the highs come from. the screen is one of those that has a remote control and unravels for showing videos. It's about 6" tall and about 7 feet wide. Just enough to cover both speakers at the same point ( Highs ). Could this be my problem or at least part of it? Well, that's all I can think of. Please help, Really struggling here!

Danyloo 5th November 2019 08:27 PM

Even if it is (and I'm not saying it is), I doubt the owner would take the screen off.
You surely need a monitor. Why does the Turbosound sound so bad?
Is it broken or you just don't like its sound?

blue439 5th November 2019 09:07 PM

I think you diagnosed your own problem. You are used to hearing yourself through the mains and with them covered, can't hear yourself. The Milan is supposed to be a good speaker so I am wondering why it is so bad. If the stage is small and you don't move much you could possibly used wired in ears instead of a wedge.

pbalzano1 6th November 2019 10:23 PM

Thanks so much, I was using IEMs when I did big shows but feel too isolated now on a tiny stage in a small cafe ( 100 guest capacity ). Never liked the sound of the Milan to begin with. Prefer the L'Acoustic stuff but we can't afford one here. Could the mid/hi frequencies bouncing of the screen and back on to the stage cause the feedback? Mic is only about 3 feet down and 4 feet away. Thanks again :)

GreenNeedle 6th November 2019 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbalzano1 (Post 14305310)
Hi, my name is Philip Balzano and I'm a singer.
I recently started working at a cafe that uses 2 flying QSC K12s and Mackie 1501 sub. The sound was fine for a while but last month I started to struggle with voice problems. It seems I was straining too much and my cords would dry up really fast. I found something that might be the cause of the problem but need to ask you Pros if I'm on the right track. I tried to figure out why I was getting more feedback when before there was none. What was happening was that I heard myself differently and thought it was just a matter of raising the volume but when I did, it would feedback. So, I left the volume low and kept straining to hear myself. I always position myself as close to halfway between the speakers as possible and behind them so I'm only getting reflected sound. We have an old Turbosound Milan that we use as a floor wedge but it sounds so terrible that I just use it to play some music for pitch reference. I often stroll out to the audience and noticed that the sound was different out in the room as well. I looked at the positioning of the K12s and the first thing I noticed was, that the management had placed a video screen about 6" in front of the speaker right where the highs come from. the screen is one of those that has a remote control and unravels for showing videos. It's about 6" tall and about 7 feet wide. Just enough to cover both speakers at the same point ( Highs ). Could this be my problem or at least part of it? Well, that's all I can think of. Please help, Really struggling here!

It's not uncommon at all for management, decorators, event planners etc to innocently put banners, signs, blankets, displays any many other things in front of the speakers at events.
You have to educate them.
Explain that the clarity and detail of sound travels in a strait line from the tweeter and mids and if they put something in front of the speaker it will mess up your sound, period.
Explain it politely with their best interest in mind (good sound in the room) but without room for them to debate it.
This is physics, it isn't a debatable topic.

Danyloo 7th November 2019 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenNeedle (Post 14307667)
It's not uncommon at all for management, decorators, event planners etc to innocently put banners, signs, blankets, displays any many other things in front of the speakers at events.
You have to educate them.
Explain that the clarity and detail of sound travels in a strait line from the tweeter and mids and if they put something in front of the speaker it will mess up your sound, period.
Explain it politely with their best interest in mind (good sound in the room) but without room for them to debate it.
This is physics, it isn't a debatable topic.

You don't need to educate them as they probably know what they're doing and why they placed a screen in that place.
If they didn't ask you in the first place, move on and make it work how you can.
People need solutions, not what could look as a useless problem.

Even more useless when all he needs to do is to use the wedge that he already has.
The argument that he's not going to use a wedge because it's not L'Acoustics (in a 100 people bar) is insane.

Samc 7th November 2019 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danyloo (Post 14308626)
You don't need to educate them as they probably know what they're doing and why they placed a screen in that place.
If they didn't ask you in the first place, move on and make it work how you can.
People need solutions, not what could look as a useless problem.

Even more useless when all he needs to do is to use the wedge that he already has.
The argument that he's not going to use a wedge because it's not L'Acoustics (in a 100 people bar) is insane.

This!

Plus, I doubt very much that the screen is the earl problem, he wouldn’t be listening to the direct sound of the loudspeakers anyway...but he could just use his IEM system. Don’t get too precious, there’s always someone who can/will work around the situation.

Arthur Stone 7th November 2019 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbalzano1 (Post 14305310)
Hi, my name is Philip Balzano and I'm a singer.
I recently started working at a cafe that uses 2 flying QSC K12s and Mackie 1501 sub. The sound was fine for a while but last month I started to struggle with voice problems. It seems I was straining too much and my cords would dry up really fast. I found something that might be the cause of the problem but need to ask you Pros if I'm on the right track. I tried to figure out why I was getting more feedback when before there was none. What was happening was that I heard myself differently and thought it was just a matter of raising the volume but when I did, it would feedback. So, I left the volume low and kept straining to hear myself. I always position myself as close to halfway between the speakers as possible and behind them so I'm only getting reflected sound. We have an old Turbosound Milan that we use as a floor wedge but it sounds so terrible that I just use it to play some music for pitch reference. I often stroll out to the audience and noticed that the sound was different out in the room as well. I looked at the positioning of the K12s and the first thing I noticed was, that the management had placed a video screen about 6" in front of the speaker right where the highs come from. the screen is one of those that has a remote control and unravels for showing videos. It's about 6" tall and about 7 feet wide. Just enough to cover both speakers at the same point ( Highs ). Could this be my problem or at least part of it? Well, that's all I can think of. Please help, Really struggling here!

Hi Philip! Welcome to Gearslutz kfhkh
I'm currently reviewing the Earproof PRO (a passive earbud that attenuates sound in loud environments) which is aimed at performers/audio engineers. A couple of your comments reminded me of the Acoustic Reflex which is the human body's natural response to loud sound; the reflex dampens down the ear's mechanical parts to attenuate sound and it is instinctive and unconscious.
An associated effect - the Lombard Effect - occurs when high sound pressure level (SPL) reaches the threshold of Acoustic Reflex: the vocalist will automatically raise their vocal level and strain their voice to compete with the environmental sound/backing music.

Devices like the Earproof PRO attenuate the sound pressure level so that the Acoustic reflex is not triggered and the voice is not automatically raised.

The full review will be published soon so I'll add a link asap.

floomby 7th November 2019 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthur Stone (Post 14308693)
Hi Philip! Welcome to Gearslutz kfhkh
I'm currently reviewing the Earproof PRO (a passive earbud that attenuates sound in loud environments) which is aimed at performers/audio engineers.

You don't need to spend that much to deal with loud stage volumes. I have a pair of flat frequency response earplugs that I got off amazon for less than $10. Though I don't have them for stages, but for small practice rooms with loud drummers. Also even off the shelf (read not custom fitted) iems will block a fair amount of sound.

To the OP, I generally like in ears, but have had that "I feel disconnected from the audience feeling". To deal with this sometimes I will leave one out ear out, and the other thing is as time went on I felt that less. Also I have come to accept that good monitoring is something that just doesn't happen that often, and sometimes it is best just to learn to live with it.

GreenNeedle 7th November 2019 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danyloo (Post 14308626)
You don't need to educate them as they probably know what they're doing and why they placed a screen in that place.
If they didn't ask you in the first place, move on and make it work how you can.
People need solutions, not what could look as a useless problem.

Even more useless when all he needs to do is to use the wedge that he already has.
The argument that he's not going to use a wedge because it's not L'Acoustics (in a 100 people bar) is insane.

Why would you speculate like that?

Arthur Stone 7th November 2019 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floomby (Post 14309060)
You don't need to spend that much to deal with loud stage volumes. I have a pair of flat frequency response earplugs that I got off amazon for less than $10. Though I don't have them for stages, but for small practice rooms with loud drummers. Also even off the shelf (read not custom fitted) iems will block a fair amount of sound...

:facepalm:

floomby 7th November 2019 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthur Stone (Post 14309225)
Quote:

Originally Posted by floomby (Post 14309060)
You don't need to spend that much to deal with loud stage volumes. I have a pair of flat frequency response earplugs that I got off amazon for less than $10. Though I don't have them for stages, but for small practice rooms with loud drummers. Also even off the shelf (read not custom fitted) iems will block a fair amount of sound.

:facepalm:

Dude we aren't after fidelity here. A few db on a given frequency doesn't matter much. You need to be able to hear well enough to stay with the band, and if you are doing improvisation be able to hear the other players ideas. Besides if you feel like you need earplugs on stage to deal with stage volume you likely have a bad monitoring situation anyways.

Arthur Stone 7th November 2019 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floomby (Post 14309351)
Dude we aren't after fidelity here. A few db on a given frequency doesn't matter much. You need to be able to hear well enough to stay with the band, and if you are doing improvisation be able to hear the other players ideas. Besides if you feel like you need earplugs on stage to deal with stage volume you likely have a bad monitoring situation anyways.

You don't understand the point being made. Please read the linked articles (in my first post) about the Acoustic Reflex and Lombard Effect.
Not after fidelity? :facepalm::facepalm:

floomby 7th November 2019 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arthur Stone (Post 14309370)
You don't understand the point being made. Please read the linked articles (in my first post) about the Acoustic Reflex and Lombard Effect.
Not after fidelity? :facepalm::facepalm:

What you are saying is loud stage volume often causes people to sing too loudly and strain their voice. 50 Euros for those earplugs is just a waste when 10 is all you need.

Arthur Stone 7th November 2019 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by floomby (Post 14309527)
What you are saying is loud stage volume often causes people to sing too loudly and strain their voice. 50 Euros for those earplugs is just a waste when 10 is all you need.

I'm not advocating one type of earplug over another (or even earplugs vs other monitoring set-ups): I'm offering information about the 'acoustic reflex' as I recognised that in the OP's description of the monitoring problem.
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

BTW have you ever actually compared £10 vs £50 earbuds or is it just your opinion?

blue439 7th November 2019 10:42 PM

If the only thing that changed in the venue was the screen, then it very likely is the cause of the problem. You could approach management and explain and ask if it could be moved. The screen being in front of the speakers will also affect the sound of the videos being played unless the screen is a perforated screen. If the owners refuse then you will just have to work around it. Maybe a microphone change to a hypercardioid might help with the feedback if you are not using one presently.

pbalzano1 8th November 2019 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue439 (Post 14309716)
If the only thing that changed in the venue was the screen, then it very likely is the cause of the problem. You could approach management and explain and ask if it could be moved. The screen being in front of the speakers will also affect the sound of the videos being played unless the screen is a perforated screen. If the owners refuse then you will just have to work around it. Maybe a microphone change to a hypercardioid might help with the feedback if you are not using one presently.


I use a Shure QLXD2 with the QLXD4 receiver and a KSM9 capsule set to Hyper cardiod. tried the Neumann 105 wireless, wasn't working for me as my repertoire is so diverse. From A-Z, Andrea to Zep. lol ! Great for some songs not so for others. couldn't afford both. :)

pbalzano1 8th November 2019 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue439 (Post 14305391)
I think you diagnosed your own problem. You are used to hearing yourself through the mains and with them covered, can't hear yourself. The Milan is supposed to be a good speaker so I am wondering why it is so bad. If the stage is small and you don't move much you could possibly used wired in ears instead of a wedge.

The Milan has seen better days. It survived Hurricane Sandy somehow. replaced the woofer but the amp section is [email protected]#$ED!

Arthur Stone 17th November 2019 02:34 PM

Link to the Gearslutz Earproof PRO review: Earproof PRO

To clarify: I'm not suggesting the PRO's are the answer to the OP's problems but the review covers some relevant topics like 'acoustic reflex threshold.'

DJRAZZ 20th December 2019 02:43 PM

A mic with too much gain in front of the mains equals feedback. Not having a clear and loud monitor equals over singing and a sore voice. Speakers being blocked equals muddy sound and bad reflections. Bad reflections causes bad and unnatural sound and adds to the feedback. The answers are in the OP's original questions and comments.

1jordyzzz 29th December 2019 05:22 PM

If you hear you sound differently before and after you're getting feedback, then i think your problem is your channel or monitor EQ is messed up. Try to reset your settings to the time before you were getting feedback.
Or you can view your channel RTA and try to isolate the specific frequency that feedback the most, and then eq them down.