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Enrico Donner 19th October 2019 09:35 AM

Smallest Soffit Mounted Speakers Available
 
Hi there!
I've searched around but didn't find much about it.

Is there a critical size for soffit mounted speakers?

I have a small room, 9 by 16 ft (empty, before acoustic treatment), and would like to know if what are the best soffit mounted speakers options for such a small room, if any.

In other words: is there a physical limit under which soffit mounting does not make sense, or could I possibly soffit mount (theoretically) almost any speaker?

Thanks a lot for your precious help,
E

Starlight 19th October 2019 11:34 AM

Regardless of whether you mean soffit mounting (right up there, just beneath the ceiling) or flush-mounting (which is what I think you mean), according to Rod Gervais (here), John H. Brandt (here) and Boggy (I read it recently here but don't have it bookmarked), flush-mounting monitors in a room as small as yours is not recommended.

Jason Foi 19th October 2019 04:07 PM

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I DIY flush mounted eve audio sc208's in a 12'x15' room successfully. The main thing i would look for in any speaker to be flush mounted is a flat front baffle. Speakers with really curved baffles make it extremely difficult to cut a matching hole in the bezel. If you do go with a smaller speaker for flush mounting then you'll want to add a couple subwoofers too so that your system can produce the needed SPL at low frequencies without distortion.

deedeeyeah 19th October 2019 06:34 PM

can someone tell me in a nutshell why there should be a theoretical lower limit in size for an in-wall design? wouldn't it be better than any free standing speaker setup anyhow?

bert stoltenborg 19th October 2019 07:30 PM

Of course not, if you have a 10 mm tweeter and a 50 mm woofer in a 2 liter enclosure that can generate, by extreme excursion capability, a usable full range signal, it would even be better to flush it as the normaly considered unwanted omni potential is tamed.

deedeeyeah 19th October 2019 08:15 PM

thx!

Brian M. Boykin 20th October 2019 01:11 AM

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I flush mounted my Yamaha NS500m’s and partially flush mounted my Event 20/20bas into a soft front wall. Initial testing showed the direct sound frequency response on both sets flattened out from about 100hz up. The catch is and what could account for it, the front wall had a 16 1/2” cavity I turned into a 20” broadband absorber. I’m sure it’s a combination of both but even decay times evened out more and are in the 250ms range. The cloud will go up next. It will be at least 10” thick maybe 12” if I splurge for the extra OC703. It’s not perfect, it’s a small room so it’s never gonna be perfect, but it got better, not worse.

deedeeyeah 20th October 2019 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian M. Boykin (Post 14274816)
I flush mounted my Yamaha NS500m’s and partially flush mounted my Event 20/20bas into a soft front wall. Initial testing showed the direct sound frequency response on both sets flattened out from about 100hz up. The catch is and what could account for it, the front wall had a 16 1/2” cavity I turned into a 20” broadband absorber. I’m sure it’s a combination of both but even decay times evened out more and are in the 250ms range. The cloud will go up next. It will be at least 10” thick maybe 12” if I splurge for the extra OC703. It’s not perfect, it’s a small room so it’s never gonna be perfect, but it got better, not worse.

pls tell me you're not using geq's for any of your speakers in your cr?!? (possibly even old versions with pin 3 hot if i remember right...)

Brian M. Boykin 20th October 2019 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedeeyeah (Post 14274844)
pls tell me you're not using geq's for any of your speakers in your cr?!? (possibly even old versions with pin 3 hot if i remember right...)

Nope. Those are variable Q EQ’s and they’re loaded with very nice sounding inductors. No EQ’s what so ever on the monitors. And yes, pin 3 was hot on some of them and I changed them in the EQ. Some had jumpers. That’s a Soundcraft 400b and the main outs were pin 3 hot also. All that gear has been recapped and updated with modern op amps. The console had all the carbon resistors changed over to metal film. Lots of work but it’s paying off.

Brian M. Boykin 20th October 2019 01:51 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by deedeeyeah (Post 14274856)
glad to hear that... - i had a soundcraft vienna years ago which i sometimes used in the studio (but mostly live) - nice desks!

I have a liking to Soundcrafts. I have a 500 series 40/8/2 in the garage I’m about to start on. It will give me more channels, more sends, and a smaller footprint. All balanced except for the inserts and direct outs. I paid $40 for it. It was a FOH console. Super dirty when I got it. They’re great platforms for modders like me.

Brian M. Boykin 20th October 2019 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedeeyeah (Post 14274872)
boah!

i'm not into modding and i'm glad i got a tech to maintain gear; gets less work these days as i replaced my analog desks (except for the mci in one of the studios) with digital desks years ago!
(there must be a huge yamaha live desk somewhere in the warehouse though)

Which MCI and which Yamaha? Idk if I’ll ever have a studio large enough to house a LFC, but the MCI 600 series would be something I’d tackle years down the road. I know they were not as well liked as the 500 series but they’re IC based and that’s my cup of tea. I saw one at Steve Saddlers and the footprint isn’t bad either. Some of the Yamaha’s that had transformers are suppose to be very nice sounding desks.

Brian M. Boykin 20th October 2019 02:28 AM

OP, sorry for hijacking your thread. What’s your budget? I’m gonna see about replacing the Event 20/20’s in the picture with Dynaudio LYD-48’s. Almost the same size and a three way monitor with DSP if your into that. They’re $1200 a pop though. That’s for one. My only concern is they’re rear ported. I’m gonna be contacting Dynaudio to see what their advise is.

As said, you want a flat front face and a square cabinet. Makes it easier to build the baffle. As you can see in mine the OC703 is the baffle. They’re sitting on 200lb stands and decoupled from the stand. The OC703 is decoupling the speakers from the wood frame as well. Otherwise you should build the front wall with a lot of mass. To lower any resonate frequencies below the audible range.

Enrico Donner 23rd October 2019 08:35 PM

Thanks for your answers.

I was thinking at ATC25 or Genelec 8050 (which I already own, maybe via its mounting kit?), or Genelec 1030A + 7060A (which I own).
Of course proper treatment of wall, which will have a dense mass, plus decoupling of speakers from their support.

Other candidates are welcome too.
Thks

deedeeyeah 23rd October 2019 08:45 PM

i'd never use any self-powered speaker for an in-wall design but if there's an easy way to take the dsp/amp-module/x-over/electronics from the cabinets, why not...

Brian M. Boykin 23rd October 2019 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedeeyeah (Post 14281715)
i'd never use any self-powered speaker for an in-wall design but if there's an easy way to take the dsp/amp-module/x-over/electronics from the cabinets, why not...

I’ve read to mount the amps off to the side away from the cabinet. Not directly under the speakers because of thermal issues from the heat rising into the drivers.

Jason Foi 23rd October 2019 09:48 PM

They have been mounting active speakers in flush mount systems over at john sayer's site for years and i've never seen one complaint of amps burning out. You just have to leave a ventillation shaft in your design and convection currents draw in fresh cool air from the bottom and expell hot air out the top.

Brian M. Boykin 23rd October 2019 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Foi (Post 14281821)
They have been mounting active speakers in flush mount systems over at john sayer's site for years and i've never seen one complaint of amps burning out. You just have to leave a ventillation shaft in your design and convection currents draw in fresh cool air from the bottom and expell hot air out the top.

I’ve read that as well. The purpose for mounting the amps outside is so you can trim the highs, lows, and total volume without having to pull the monitors out. There are very few manufacturers putting these controls on the front of the monitor. My Events require a small philips screw driver to make adjustments. It’s a pain making small adjustments and then retesting when you could put REW in SPL and set one monitor at a time. If you have a better process I’m all ears. And I mean that sensorily. I don’t know it all.

deedeeyeah 23rd October 2019 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian M. Boykin (Post 14281972)
I’ve read that as well. The purpose for mounting the amps outside is so you can trim the highs, lows, and total volume without having to pull the monitors out. There are very few manufacturers putting these controls on the front of the monitor. My Events require a small philips screw driver to make adjustments. It’s a pain making small adjustments and then retesting when you could put REW in SPL and set one monitor at a time. If you have a better process I’m all ears. And I mean that sensorily. I don’t know it all.

it's for those practical reasons i'd wouldn't use self-powered speakers in this application or if so, get all the electronics out and put them in a rack which is very easily accessible/is not built into the wall.

all passive (yes, we call any non-powered speaker passive over here) tad/augspurgers or tannoys here, actively driven (yes, we call any system with woofers/tweeters being driven by its own amp active) via dsp and large amps...

no cooling/air ducts needed!

Jason Foi 23rd October 2019 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian M. Boykin (Post 14281972)
I’ve read that as well. The purpose for mounting the amps outside is so you can trim the highs, lows, and total volume without having to pull the monitors out. There are very few manufacturers putting these controls on the front of the monitor. My Events require a small philips screw driver to make adjustments. It’s a pain making small adjustments and then retesting when you could put REW in SPL and set one monitor at a time. If you have a better process I’m all ears. And I mean that sensorily. I don’t know it all.

That is a downside, yes. Luckily my eve's have a pot on the front for LF/HF/Trim, but i also used my ddrc88a-bm for x over and fine adjustment of gain.

Brian M. Boykin 24th October 2019 12:14 AM

Passives are much better for this application. I just picked up a pair of Rogers Sound Labs 2600mm’s for this reason. They’re a high end monitor from a small Southern CA company. Circa early 90’s. Passive 3 ways in small package are hard to find so I thought I’d try these before I splurged in something more modern. REW will have the final say.

Jason Foi 24th October 2019 12:26 AM

IMO whatever works, works. All options are viable, but to each their own. I hope those 2600's work out for you. And yup, i agree 100%, there's no fooling REW.

Brian M. Boykin 24th October 2019 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Foi (Post 14282087)
IMO whatever works, works. All options are viable, but to each their own. I hope those 2600's work out for you. And yup, i agree 100%, there's no fooling REW.

For sure. I do not work in absolutes.

Mark Alpine 27th October 2019 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starlight (Post 14273606)
Regardless of whether you mean soffit mounting (right up there, just beneath the ceiling) or flush-mounting (which is what I think you mean), according to Rod Gervais (here), John H. Brandt (here) and Boggy (I read it recently here but don't have it bookmarked), flush-mounting monitors in a room as small as yours is not recommended.

Can you please tell me why it's not recommended? What negative effects do you expect to see?

I plan to mount my speakers very close to the front wall (push SBIR up in frequency) and surround them by (1.) corner bass traps and (2.) 18cm (7") broadband absorbers placed in the middle of the front wall. Technically the speakers will not be flush-mounted (some air still between them and the absorbers), and above and below the speakers there will be bare wall only.

Thanks!

Starlight 27th October 2019 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Alpine (Post 14288898)
Can you please tell me why it's not recommended? What negative effects do you expect to see?

I thought Rod and John explained their views well enough; I cannot do better. Jason and the many he mentions have done it successfully and that surely must be testament to their thoroughness.

Jason Foi 27th October 2019 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Alpine (Post 14288898)
Can you please tell me why it's not recommended? What negative effects do you expect to see?

I plan to mount my speakers very close to the front wall (push SBIR up in frequency) and surround them by (1.) corner bass traps and (2.) 18cm (7") broadband absorbers placed in the middle of the front wall. Technically the speakers will not be flush-mounted (some air still between them and the absorbers), and above and below the speakers there will be bare wall only.

Thanks!

The danger in DIY flush mount is that your monitors and listening position are fixed. Theres no moving around to find optimal positions, so you better design the rest of the room around this. It takes careful planning, but its worth it IMO

Mark Alpine 27th October 2019 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starlight (Post 14288925)
I thought Rod and John explained their views well enough; I cannot do better. Jason and the many he mentions have done it successfully and that surely must be testament to their thoroughness.

Sorry, read your reply too quickly and missed the links you provided. Will have a look tomorrow. Right now my head is spinning and I'm tired. Need a nap... khrthjdrt

/Cheers, Mark