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-   -   New RC-808, Emulator From the Original Inventor (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-and-electronic-music-production/1275421-new-rc-808-emulator-original-inventor.html)

SynMike 13th August 2019 07:06 AM

New RC-808, Emulator From the Original Inventor
 
RC-808, still very preliminary work. Freeware.

The “analogue mafia”, all former Roland engineers, lead by Tadao Kikumoto who lead development of the TR-808, have built a software emulation of TR-808 (that does a lot more than just that).

Their web site:
https://vector808.jimdofree.com/

What most of the English speaking world call x0x boxes, they call the the Mid-O Series.
Cool information here, direct from the real sources:
https://vector808.jimdofree.com/home...-mid-o-series/

News article (in Japanese, use google translate) with more information.
https://www.dtmstation.com/archives/...iceIiiNGT5CvLg

Mike.

Musician 13th August 2019 07:10 AM

Nice. But the guy has the expertise to create a new drum machine in software that doesn't exist yet, maybe something groundbreaking. As they are plenty alternatives already for the tr808 sounds.

poserp 13th August 2019 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Musician (Post 14146499)
Nice. But the guy has the expertise to create a new drum machine in software that doesn't exist yet, maybe something groundbreaking. As they are plenty alternatives already for the tr808 sounds.

Yeah, this does that:

'The sound source employs DCO which is in this case Down Chirp Oscillator, combined with a noise source that outputs various kinds of noises including metallic noises. There is also a infinite point wave shaper, a variable filter bank, infinite point envelope generators etc. With maximum 8 partials per voice, it allows sound designing in subtractive synthesis manner which is familiar to all and yet still with vast space beckoning to be discovered. '

'Thanks to this flexible architecture, all instruments can have Open and Close variations just like Hi-Hats or cymbal choke performance. Coupled with piano-roll sequencer utility this brings new expressions with gate time programming, that you don’t see on a drum sequencer.'

So, it's not just an 808, rather a synthesizer that starts from the 808 "base", if you will, and then lets you tweak it quite a bit beyond 808.

Coorec 13th August 2019 07:46 AM

Quote:

The “analogue mafia” built a software emulation of TR-808.
I condensed the statement down a bit .. :lol:

usedtohaveajuno 13th August 2019 08:44 AM

That was a wonderful read - I encourage all fans of the “mid-0” range to read the “about” pages, sensational cooge

autoy 13th August 2019 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by usedtohaveajuno (Post 14146574)
That was a wonderful read - I encourage all fans of the “mid-0” range to read the “about” pages, sensational cooge

It really clears up a couple of popular notions that are plain wrong, such as the TR machines intended to be realistic sounding. They were primarily open-ended percussion synthesizers. Synthesizing sounds vs the PCM rompler approach is a constant throughout all Roland instruments until the JD series, against the industry odds. Stubbornly doing what they thought it was right to do instead of following the trend is what ultimately enabled the creation of new musical genres. It was actions and consequences, not really all luck and providence as much as that romantic idea conquers the collective mindset.

nickknack 13th August 2019 10:21 AM

I have had both ACB versions of the tr8 and s and they are lame sounding even compared to the
Behringer RD 808.

So it would be nice if these guys come up with something nice.

Cheers

nil hartman 13th August 2019 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by poserp (Post 14146520)
Yeah, this does that:

'The sound source employs DCO which is in this case Down Chirp Oscillator, combined with a noise source that outputs various kinds of noises including metallic noises. There is also a infinite point wave shaper, a variable filter bank, infinite point envelope generators etc. With maximum 8 partials per voice, it allows sound designing in subtractive synthesis manner which is familiar to all and yet still with vast space beckoning to be discovered. '

'Thanks to this flexible architecture, all instruments can have Open and Close variations just like Hi-Hats or cymbal choke performance. Coupled with piano-roll sequencer utility this brings new expressions with gate time programming, that you don’t see on a drum sequencer.'

So, it's not just an 808, rather a synthesizer that starts from the 808 "base", if you will, and then lets you tweak it quite a bit beyond 808.

Absolutely amazing !!!

nickknack 13th August 2019 11:14 AM

A nice read indeed.

When listening to the sound demo it reminds me of the Nord Drum .

Cheers

space skeleton 13th August 2019 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autoy (Post 14146630)
It really clears up a couple of popular notions that are plain wrong, such as the TR machines intended to be realistic sounding. They were primarily open-ended percussion synthesizers. Synthesizing sounds vs the PCM rompler approach is a constant throughout all Roland instruments until the JD series, against the industry odds. Stubbornly doing what they thought it was right to do instead of following the trend is what ultimately enabled the creation of new musical genres. It was actions and consequences, not really all luck and providence as much as that romantic idea conquers the collective mindset.

One of the things that gets me about people on Gearslutz when they try to slag some piece of gear, is that the people making it/developing it are generally just as passionate or if not even more about synths/drum machines than they are.

matt pinchin 13th August 2019 01:53 PM

I will have to wait for the mac version

earwolf 13th August 2019 02:00 PM

So much ignore in one short thread

zerocrossing 13th August 2019 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickknack (Post 14146661)
I have had both ACB versions of the tr8 and s and they are lame sounding even compared to the
Behringer RD 808.

So it would be nice if these guys come up with something nice.

Cheers

I thought the new ACB stuff sounded great. It’d be good if you posted a side-by-side comparison. The Behringer sound great too, but in the demos I’ve heard, it didn’t seem to blow me away in any way.

zerocrossing 13th August 2019 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autoy (Post 14146630)
It really clears up a couple of popular notions that are plain wrong, such as the TR machines intended to be realistic sounding. They were primarily open-ended percussion synthesizers. Synthesizing sounds vs the PCM rompler approach is a constant throughout all Roland instruments until the JD series, against the industry odds. Stubbornly doing what they thought it was right to do instead of following the trend is what ultimately enabled the creation of new musical genres. It was actions and consequences, not really all luck and providence as much as that romantic idea conquers the collective mindset.

I think that notion stems from what a lot of people wanted the 808/909 to be... including myself. At that time, I was more interested in realistic drum sounds, and from that vantage point, they sound terrible. I ended up buying the Yamaha RX-5 instead. It wasn’t like I didn’t spend time with the 909. A guy used to pay me money to help him program beats for it. I just didn’t get it. (Along with most people of the time) It wasn’t until years later when the hip-hop crowd picked it up that I finally “got” it. Now I love it, and I can’t help but think, “what was I thinking,” but to be honest, it didn’t really fit into the music I was doing at the time.

Synthstrategy 13th August 2019 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by autoy (Post 14146630)
It really clears up a couple of popular notions that are plain wrong, such as the TR machines intended to be realistic sounding. They were primarily open-ended percussion synthesizers. Synthesizing sounds vs the PCM rompler approach is a constant throughout all Roland instruments until the JD series, against the industry odds. Stubbornly doing what they thought it was right to do instead of following the trend is what ultimately enabled the creation of new musical genres. It was actions and consequences, not really all luck and providence as much as that romantic idea conquers the collective mindset.

huh?
how did you draw that out of this?

Also, it is noteworthy to mention that the aim of the TR-808 development team was to design not a drum machine, but a drum synthesizer. It was not for mimicking a real sound, but to provide possibilities to create ideal sound. However due to the limited performance, the physical volume, and the cost of the analog devices at that time, we had to abandon this original target that we were pursuing.

says tge original AIM was ABANDONED.
dont make up stuff..

autoy 13th August 2019 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Synthstrategy (Post 14146935)
huh?
how did you draw that out of this?

Also, it is noteworthy to mention that the aim of the TR-808 development team was to design not a drum machine, but a drum synthesizer. It was not for mimicking a real sound, but to provide possibilities to create ideal sound. However due to the limited performance, the physical volume, and the cost of the analog devices at that time, we had to abandon this original target that we were pursuing.

says tge original AIM was ABANDONED.
dont make up stuff..

Yeah, you'd really love the article if you read all of it. They reduced the circuit complexity and exposed parameters due to those exact constraints but the aim was the same. Don't get all aggro.

justmull 13th August 2019 03:01 PM

I have to say this is so cool! I'm loving the hats, toms and kicks they've created. Some of the 909 style ones are very healthy.

usedtohaveajuno 13th August 2019 04:04 PM

The passion on the website is magnificent and that they really were struggling to emulate real drums on the kicks but ran too fast for the technology costs, but ended up laying the groundwork for the LA style

So refreshing to read these ideals and innovation rather than the innovation of setting up a cheapo factory to knock off existing designs for profit

gentleclockdivid 13th August 2019 04:14 PM

At first I thought it sounded like crap , was only running the midi editor (rc 808 edit ) which uses the default windows midi player :) lol
The soundengine sounds pretty nice actually , to bad we need the midi loopback device to sequence it.

Lot's of parameters to tweak
Thank you analogue yakuza :)


correction , it sounds bloody marvelous

Plaeground 13th August 2019 04:24 PM

Any audio demos?

gentleclockdivid 13th August 2019 04:29 PM

Gui typo, mania instead of mafia :heh:

mutilatedlip 13th August 2019 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickknack (Post 14146661)
I have had both ACB versions of the tr8 and s and they are lame sounding even compared to the
Behringer RD 808.

So it would be nice if these guys come up with something nice.

Cheers

RD808? Because it's so easy to hear the intricacies of the 808 sound via a compressed YouTube preliminary demo.

Or is it not the intricacies of the 808 sound you're interested in?

Because if the ACB is that lame, it's probably because you're missing the slight nuances within the sound which they admittedly don't nail 100%.

But if this is the case, how can you then claim something that isn't released yet is actually better?

This is the kind of misinformation that makes people ponder of meaningless choices as oppose to just grab a machine and make music with it.

Oh, and I've owned 909/808 and the ACB stuff. The ACB stuff is amazing. If you can't create with it, then the problem isn't the emulation.

usedtohaveajuno 13th August 2019 04:56 PM

No no, it’s not a clone remember - someone had sa shot of one and was clear about that - it’s a TR-808 Mk2, like the original design team would have wanted :lol:

usedtohaveajuno 13th August 2019 04:59 PM

And my god I’d love to see a System 700 configured for the original 808 sound design - must be amazing and to also see how the sounds could be tweaked, but sadly that’s another world away now unless you’re in a museum

How many System 700s were made?

ToyBox 13th August 2019 05:17 PM

Nice, love behind the scenes info like that. My favorite part is how they didn't have the subs required to hear the boom, highlighting how the ever shifting cultural and technological landscapes changes the experience and perception (and value) of sounds:
[...] we had only cheap playback devices in our labs in Roland, and none of us were able to hear nor realize the heavy low bass frequency bands of this killer tone.
Did they voice all their 70s/80s stuff on cheap monitoring too? Is digging up vintage speakers the only way to hear how a "factory fresh" machine really sounded like?

Anyway, below is a comment by the same Tadao Kikumoto taken from Roland's D-50's 30th anniversary promo page, adding more to the story:

Roland D-50: Born from the ideality of creative musical instrument development

Through my development experience of TR-808 and 909, I found that 90% of all sound identities occur during the quick transformation of overtones arising from the initial touch to around 20 or 30 milliseconds. The sound after the attack is not so important. Actually, this way of thinking led to developing the D-50.

The Yamaha DX7, which was already in the market at that time, was an epoch-making digital synthesizer, adopting complicated and anharmonic sounds (which did not exist in analog) in the initial part. Our first fully digital synthesizer adopted granular PCM in the initial part, after which I decided to implement an intuitive and versatile digital signal processing using an analog subtractive method. It was a big question which phoneme to adopt for the initial part. If it is too concrete sound, it is not versatile, so we sought for a sound which is close to real, but obscure. I consulted Eric Persing, who belonged at that time to Roland, and he said, “I have an idea, leave it to me!” As a result, an “ideal” sound was born.

Another important point for the LA sound source is that we integrated digital effects for the first time in history. There was opinion against it inside the company, but we obtained a synergy effect by adding Chorus and Reverb.


We aimed at “real” sound, but we could create the “ideal” sound around there.

The TR-808 and TR-909, which were developed long before D-50, aimed at reproducing real sound. However, in the end, a new sound which is simpler but stronger than real drum sound, without contaminating or being trivial, was born. And this is the “ideality”. It doesn’t mean just “idea” but also Theory of Forms (Plato), ideal, imagination, or creation. If reality is compared to a photograph, ideality is a painting.

Therefore, D-50’s sound is like a painting of impressionism and abstractionism, and it is not a sampler but a synthesizer, which is a creative instrument.

Japanese anime has its special aesthetic standard; big eyes in small face, small mouth and chin. It looked strange to western people, but is well accepted nowadays. Aesthetic study, which is a study of aesthetic value, seems to become more and more popular now.

I think D-50 is just a milestone vintage of the transition period from analog to digital. I am proud that Roland was, and still is, searching for “ideality” in such transition period, and even now for the future.

Finally, let me express my big appreciation to Eric, Adrian Scott, and the engineers who worked for this project, and who became creative leaders.

We Design The Future.

ToyBox 13th August 2019 05:20 PM

Do wonder if Roland will ask them to change the colors and name of this RC-808 thought, they're more aggressive about protecting their IP now.

asynchro_nous 13th August 2019 05:25 PM

I wonder what the veteran Roland engineers think of something like the SE-02.

realtrance 13th August 2019 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToyBox (Post 14147176)
Nice, love behind the scenes info like that. My favorite part is how they didn't have the subs required to hear the boom, highlighting how the ever shifting cultural and technological landscapes changes the experience and perception (and value) of sounds:
[...] we had only cheap playback devices in our labs in Roland, and none of us were able to hear nor realize the heavy low bass frequency bands of this killer tone.
Did they voice all their 70s/80s stuff on cheap monitoring too? Is digging up vintage speakers the only way to hear how a "factory fresh" machine really sounded like?

Anyway, below is a comment by the same Tadao Kikumoto taken from Roland's D-50's 30th anniversary promo page, adding more to the story:

Roland D-50: Born from the ideality of creative musical instrument development

Through my development experience of TR-808 and 909, I found that 90% of all sound identities occur during the quick transformation of overtones arising from the initial touch to around 20 or 30 milliseconds. The sound after the attack is not so important. Actually, this way of thinking led to developing the D-50.

The Yamaha DX7, which was already in the market at that time, was an epoch-making digital synthesizer, adopting complicated and anharmonic sounds (which did not exist in analog) in the initial part. Our first fully digital synthesizer adopted granular PCM in the initial part, after which I decided to implement an intuitive and versatile digital signal processing using an analog subtractive method. It was a big question which phoneme to adopt for the initial part. If it is too concrete sound, it is not versatile, so we sought for a sound which is close to real, but obscure. I consulted Eric Persing, who belonged at that time to Roland, and he said, “I have an idea, leave it to me!” As a result, an “ideal” sound was born.

Another important point for the LA sound source is that we integrated digital effects for the first time in history. There was opinion against it inside the company, but we obtained a synergy effect by adding Chorus and Reverb.


We aimed at “real” sound, but we could create the “ideal” sound around there.

The TR-808 and TR-909, which were developed long before D-50, aimed at reproducing real sound. However, in the end, a new sound which is simpler but stronger than real drum sound, without contaminating or being trivial, was born. And this is the “ideality”. It doesn’t mean just “idea” but also Theory of Forms (Plato), ideal, imagination, or creation. If reality is compared to a photograph, ideality is a painting.

Therefore, D-50’s sound is like a painting of impressionism and abstractionism, and it is not a sampler but a synthesizer, which is a creative instrument.

Japanese anime has its special aesthetic standard; big eyes in small face, small mouth and chin. It looked strange to western people, but is well accepted nowadays. Aesthetic study, which is a study of aesthetic value, seems to become more and more popular now.

I think D-50 is just a milestone vintage of the transition period from analog to digital. I am proud that Roland was, and still is, searching for “ideality” in such transition period, and even now for the future.

Finally, let me express my big appreciation to Eric, Adrian Scott, and the engineers who worked for this project, and who became creative leaders.

We Design The Future.

It’s that first 20-50ms that Roland has concentrated on providing complex control over ever since, and a distinct aspect of all their R&D, ACB included.

whatever17 13th August 2019 06:17 PM

and: it seems that the TB-303 was almost an afterthought, an add-on to the TR-606, a simplified cut-down of the 808.mezed

VennD68 13th August 2019 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nickknack (Post 14146661)
I have had both ACB versions of the tr8 and s and they are lame sounding even compared to the
Behringer RD 808.

So it would be nice if these guys come up with something nice.

Cheers

So do you have a TR-8 / TR-8S aand an RD-8 in your possesion to actually compare and quantify that statement ?