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-   -   CAD M179 in Mid-Side (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/all-things-technical/1272631-cad-m179-mid-side.html)

TakiJedenPan 18th July 2019 01:55 AM

CAD M179 in Mid-Side
 
I know it is an old (and cheap) microphone, but still excellent and I have had it for a long time and I would like to finally use its figure-of-eight mode. What would you advise as a SDC ‘Mid’ mic - I know, there are dozens of them, but also how would you mount the two together? I found two or three mounts for SDC pairs (Schoeps AMS22, Octava SM-MSR, maybe Shure A27M), but I don’t see any chance to have the heavy M179 and any SDC on one stand. And one stand is a condition, because it should be a minimalist solution for a concert situation, where as a musician, I have to set up this structure quickly and without risk, and after 10 minutes return to the stage and play with two or three other people. I’ll be grateful for your advice.

boojum 18th July 2019 02:52 AM

It's hard to say what to use with it for MS. Experimentation is the best way to see, or, buy another CAD M179. Buying another would guarantee they match. And they can also be used in other configurations for other assignments or for this one if you find a different array more pleasing.

elegentdrum 18th July 2019 03:01 AM

Use any mic you have has as the mid. I suggest a ribbon or Tube LDC to try at center first. You do not have to have a match of any kind, but I would tend not to use moving coils like a SM57. The one quality you want the same is a good room sound. MS- is mainly a room mic thing, not a close mic thing. Moving coil mic's tend not be sound as good past a few feet from the source.

If you want to use two mic's for stereo close up, better off with spaced pair or Blumlien.

JoeDeF 18th July 2019 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakiJedenPan (Post 14101464)
I know it is an old (and cheap) microphone, but still excellent and I have had it for a long time and I would like to finally use its figure-of-eight mode. What would you advise as a SDC ‘Mid’ mic - I know, there are dozens of them, but also how would you mount the two together? I found two or three mounts for SDC pairs (Schoeps AMS22, Octava SM-MSR, maybe Shure A27M), but I don’t see any chance to have the heavy M179 and any SDC on one stand. And one stand is a condition, because it should be a minimalist solution for a concert situation, where as a musician, I have to set up this structure quickly and without risk, and after 10 minutes return to the stage and play with two or three other people. I’ll be grateful for your advice.

I have two M179's. I have experimented with them (long ago) in MS, but I don't think they made it into any actual recordings IIRC. Their polar pattern in fig8 is fairly consistent for such an inexpensive mic (much better than the cardioid pattern), at least until 10k.

They are heavy indeed, and though not really big, they'd be pretty visible as a pair. If you want simple to set up and inobtrusive and cheap and good, I'd go with CM4's in NOS with a shapeways mount. If you need to reduce environmental/crowd noise and/or if the room doesn't sound great, you might be better off with the CM4's. I have CM3's, and trust the CM4's to be close enough to recommend without having used them.

If the room sounds good and crowd noise and environmental noise won't be an issue, the OM1's in spaced pair could be a good choice. I don't have OM1's (just going on recordings shared here), so that's not a first-hand recommendation.

Another cheap mic I don't have but which might be worth checking out is the Superlux S502.


EDIT -- Just remembered that M179's are phantom power hogs; any pro level interface, recorder, or mixer should handle a pair of them fine, but I'm not sure if a very cheap interface or recorder (like a battery powered "shaver") will provide enough phantom for two of them.

esldude 18th July 2019 06:43 AM

I've had pretty good results with an Avantone CK1 for the mid microphone with the M179 for side for something in the lower price range. You'd think the different size diaphragms might cause a directional mismatch and maybe they do. But tonally it works pretty well. The CK1 was using the cardioid capsule.

I tried it using a KSM27 and didn't like it. I don't much care for the KSM27 anyway seems a bit light and bright. It works better with the KSM 32 which I do like. Also tried it with the Audio Technica AT4033. I liked the KSM32 and CK1 pretty well. AT4033 alright not great. And didn't like the KSM27. I'd say I like the KSM32 and CK1 better than when I used the CAD M179 as the mid in cardioid pattern.

A pair of M179's in blumlein is a good pairing. So much so when compared with a pair of KSM44's in blumlein you wonder if the cost difference gained you all that much. The 44's are better, but not 4 times better.

norfolksoundman9 18th July 2019 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakiJedenPan (Post 14101464)
how would you mount the two together? I found two or three mounts for SDC pairs (Schoeps AMS22, Octava SM-MSR, maybe Shure A27M), but I don’t see any chance to have the heavy M179 and any SDC on one stand.

For MS with two LDC mics I always use a Manfrotto 154b (microphone support) set vertically and fitted to the top of the mic stand (for which I usually use a Manfrotto 1004BAC) with a Manfrotto 026 Lite-Tite Swivel Adapter. I can't see why this wouldn't work with an SDC for the mid mic, though, personally I would use two similar mics for M and S (and two CAD M179s would give you all sorts of options). That said, a vertical LDC MS pair isn't the most minimalist thing in visual terms!

Cheers,

Roland

TakiJedenPan 18th July 2019 02:16 PM

deleted

TakiJedenPan 18th July 2019 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boojum (Post 14101533)
It's hard to say what to use with it for MS. Experimentation is the best way to see, or, buy another CAD M179. Buying another would guarantee they match. And they can also be used in other configurations for other assignments or for this one if you find a different array more pleasing.

In fact I do have two of the M179, but it is rather too big construction in between an ensemble and listeners in concert situation. Thanks

TakiJedenPan 18th July 2019 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elegentdrum (Post 14101542)
Use any mic you have has as the mid. I suggest a ribbon or Tube LDC to try at center first. You do not have to have a match of any kind, but I would tend not to use moving coils like a SM57. The one quality you want the same is a good room sound. MS- is mainly a room mic thing, not a close mic thing. Moving coil mic's tend not be sound as good past a few feet from the source.

You are right - the figue-of-eight has a characteristics of a room mic. As a Mid mic I’ve tryed even beyerdynamic MC-950, which of course isn't a dynamic mic, but it brought very unsatisfactory resoults. Probably becouse MC-950 also behaves better in close micing.

TakiJedenPan 18th July 2019 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeDeF (Post 14101677)
I have two M179's. I have experimented with them (long ago) in MS, but I don't think they made it into any actual recordings IIRC. Their polar pattern in fig8 is fairly consistent for such an inexpensive mic (much better than the cardioid pattern), at least until 10k.

They are heavy indeed, and though not really big, they'd be pretty visible as a pair. If you want simple to set up and inobtrusive and cheap and good, I'd go with CM4's in NOS with a shapeways mount. If you need to reduce environmental/crowd noise and/or if the room doesn't sound great, you might be better off with the CM4's. I have CM3's, and trust the CM4's to be close enough to recommend without having used them.

If the room sounds good and crowd noise and environmental noise won't be an issue, the OM1's in spaced pair could be a good choice. I don't have OM1's (just going on recordings shared here), so that's not a first-hand recommendation.

Another cheap mic I don't have but which might be worth checking out is the Superlux S502.


EDIT -- Just remembered that M179's are phantom power hogs; any pro level interface, recorder, or mixer should handle a pair of them fine, but I'm not sure if a very cheap interface or recorder (like a battery powered "shaver") will provide enough phantom for two of them.

That's really informative comment. My wish to use Mid-Side technique comes from concert experience where an acustic is unpredictable and later corrections in DOW might sometime help. But, as elegentdrum mentioned, a figure-of-eight is basically a room mic, my vision may appeare as a wishful thinking. A good stereo configuration of two small SDCs is the way to go. Thanks!
For many years of activity as a musician, I've had only once encountered Line Audio Design's mic (a solo CD recording of a baroque lute) and it wasn't a sucsesful one. We've mounted a huge bunch of various stereo pairs and CM3s dropped out at the very beginning. But who knows, as I learned, setting the microphone in relation to the instrument and specific acoustics of the room is a great art, bordering on black magic :), so every situation is different. Maybe then my sound engineer did not have a heart for them either, who knows. I will buy them for myself and without stress I'll learn how to use them, they are not expensive so the risk is small.

Once I had Superlux S502. But they appeared exremaly delicate, I mean the joint between the capsules and the main body. One inattentive move, fortunately after the recording, caused that the connection broke and it did not pay off to solder it anymore. Maybe I'll order another one, as it wasn't bad as an additional general stereo.

I read about the M179's power hunger. So far, while recording a concert, I used Tascam DR-70D (on a tripod under the camera), always connected to the mains. Now encouraged by enthusiastic information, I plan to buy a new Zoom F6, which seems to be quite abundantly secured with electricity. We'll see! But no, I will not put on stage, in front of the band, the two M179, however well monted, as I will not know if the applause is for playing or for the installation ;)

TakiJedenPan 18th July 2019 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esldude (Post 14101737)
I've had pretty good results with an Avantone CK1 for the mid microphone with the M179 for side for something in the lower price range. You'd think the different size diaphragms might cause a directional mismatch and maybe they do. But tonally it works pretty well. The CK1 was using the cardioid capsule.

I tried it using a KSM27 and didn't like it. I don't much care for the KSM27 anyway seems a bit light and bright. It works better with the KSM 32 which I do like. Also tried it with the Audio Technica AT4033. I liked the KSM32 and CK1 pretty well. AT4033 alright not great. And didn't like the KSM27. I'd say I like the KSM32 and CK1 better than when I used the CAD M179 as the mid in cardioid pattern.

A pair of M179's in blumlein is a good pairing. So much so when compared with a pair of KSM44's in blumlein you wonder if the cost difference gained you all that much. The 44's are better, but not 4 times better.

However I'd love to use or have the microphones you mentioned, I'd never use two big mics (or visibly coloured) on stage. That's neither practical, nor elegant in that situation (like playing on the stage with a watch in your hand). But for home use I'll keep your suggestion in minde. Thanks.

TakiJedenPan 18th July 2019 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 (Post 14101969)
For MS with two LDC mics I always use a Manfrotto 154b (microphone support) set vertically and fitted to the top of the mic stand (for which I usually use a Manfrotto 1004BAC) with a Manfrotto 026 Lite-Tite Swivel Adapter. I can't see why this wouldn't work with an SDC for the mid mic, though, personally I would use two similar mics for M and S (and two CAD M179s would give you all sorts of options). That said, a vertical LDC MS pair isn't the most minimalist thing in visual terms!
Cheers,
Roland

Thank you Roland for showing Manfrotto support and the Swivel Adapter (very clever). I hope they are as solid and strong as my camera stand from Manfrotto, too.
Jerzy

esldude 18th July 2019 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakiJedenPan (Post 14102218)
However I'd love to use or have the microphones you mentioned, I'd never use two big mics (or visibly coloured) on stage. That's neither practical, nor elegant in that situation (like playing on the stage with a watch in your hand). But for home use I'll keep your suggestion in minde. Thanks.

Maybe you should look at stereo microphones. This one would fit your ideas.
https://www.audio-technica.com/cms/w...28e/index.html

Visually not drawing attention to itself, two microphones in one housing for mid-side recording.

Here is another choice like that:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...88--shure-vp88

Or this one:
http://studioprojects.com/lsd2.html

TakiJedenPan 18th July 2019 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esldude (Post 14102559)
Maybe you should look at stereo microphones. This one would fit your ideas.
https://www.audio-technica.com/cms/w...28e/index.html

Visually not drawing attention to itself, two microphones in one housing for mid-side recording.

Here is another choice like that:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...88--shure-vp88

Or this one:
http://studioprojects.com/lsd2.html

I admit, I seriously considered the stereo microphone.

There are many similar to LSD-2, but in my opinion they are too big for a central place on stage and may attract too much attention. There are a lot of opinions about VP88, but most of all I'm afraid of its weak sensitivity for a mobile recorder, and we're basically playing quiet music. AT4050ST seems the best - two types of stereo and MS, although it's the most expensive. But it's a great candidate!

Generally the Gearslutz is dominated by not the best opinion about one-point stereo microphones and maybe it's true, but in a concert situation their functionality has an incredible advantage: one cable (organisers hate cables), one mount (I hate to fight with a tripods and pliers minutes before playing), then one button to press ...unless there is an earthquake :)

Folkie 19th July 2019 03:25 AM

For audio quality (and visual reasons) I use Sennheiser MKH30 with piggy-backed MKH8050
or MKH8040. The 8040 or 8050 are attached to the MKH30 with Rycote back to back clips.
I use a Rycote INV7 HG MKIII shockmount to hold the MKH30 with piggy-backed Mid mic.

esldude 19th July 2019 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakiJedenPan (Post 14102756)
I admit, I seriously considered the stereo microphone.

There are many similar to LSD-2, but in my opinion they are too big for a central place on stage and may attract too much attention. There are a lot of opinions about VP88, but most of all I'm afraid of its weak sensitivity for a mobile recorder, and we're basically playing quiet music. AT4050ST seems the best - two types of stereo and MS, although it's the most expensive. But it's a great candidate!

Generally the Gearslutz is dominated by not the best opinion about one-point stereo microphones and maybe it's true, but in a concert situation their functionality has an incredible advantage: one cable (organisers hate cables), one mount (I hate to fight with a tripods and pliers minutes before playing), then one button to press ...unless there is an earthquake :)

I think you are overstating the visual look of something like the LSD-2. It is tall, but no wider than your CAD, is one slim mike, and no extra wire clutter on the stand. Fits on a simple stand like one mic. Pretty innocuous I think vs your CAD and any other microphone.

Now a real bang for buck performer in stereo microphones is the Avantone CK40. $599
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...ser-microphone

You'll not worry about it visually as it is that cabernet red color with shiny chrome grilles. Everyone will notice it. :)

TakiJedenPan 19th July 2019 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Folkie (Post 14103357)
For audio quality (and visual reasons) I use Sennheiser MKH30 with piggy-backed MKH8050
or MKH8040. The 8040 or 8050 are attached to the MKH30 with Rycote back to back clips.
I use a Rycote INV7 HG MKIII shockmount to hold the MKH30 with piggy-backed Mid mic.

I do not mind that the combination of two Senheisers is more expensive than my GH5 with good glass (I know of the Sen. high quality well!), after all the main subject of the event is music. But in a concert situation the microphone(s) must be on stage and the camera a lot further away. Either way, the two Senheisers are out of question, they are simply too expensive to simply archive the concert, maybe for YT. I leave this solution to audio-professionals in proper time.

TakiJedenPan 19th July 2019 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by esldude (Post 14103441)
I think you are overstating the visual look of something like the LSD-2. It is tall, but no wider than your CAD, is one slim mike, and no extra wire clutter on the stand. Fits on a simple stand like one mic. Pretty innocuous I think vs your CAD and any other microphone.

Now a real bang for buck performer in stereo microphones is the Avantone CK40. $599
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...ser-microphone

You'll not worry about it visually as it is that cabernet red color with shiny chrome grilles. Everyone will notice it. :)

We used StudioProject microphones once and I know of their excellent quality, extremely undervalued. But if I'd used my gray M179, it would certainly be in a horizontal position, parallel to the SDC. While the silver LSD-2 must stand proudly upright. Another time :)

When I'll be doing a program of 17th-century French music from around Boreaux, I will certainly reach for CK40. In this particular context, it might be a big bonus! Thanks.

TakiJedenPan 19th July 2019 02:01 PM

Two conclusions or solutions emerge from this discussion. The first is that the mid-side technique is not best suited to a concert situation, because the Side microphone will function as room mic, which can be risky in unpredictable acoustics. And the solution should be universal.

The traditional stereo in NOS configuration, as JoeDeF suggested, may well be optimal. There are two cables (short ones, as I'll explain later), but two black, small finger mics, for example CM4 or sE8 (preferably) should not attract anyone's attention.

The compromise can be only AT4050ST, which offers both solutions, although in 90° stereo its sensitivity drops to -42 dB (7.9 mV), which is comparable to CM4, and may raise concerns.

But there is no fear, however, because I plan to buy Zoom F6 soon and have high hopes for its great tolerance for the recording levels on the analogue side. The device should also be equipped with some form of Time Code, which should help to pair it with the GH5 camera before the concert. The F6, is extremely miniature device, and I hope it can even lie on the floor just next to the microphone stand and the cables will only run from the microphone(s) to the base of the stand. What an economics! Zoom F6 will also be operated via WiFi, so I can turn it on/off from behind the platform using a smartphone (as with GH5).

What do you think about it?

boojum 20th July 2019 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakiJedenPan (Post 14103947)
Two conclusions or solutions emerge from this discussion. The first is that the mid-side technique is not best suited to a concert situation, because the Side microphone will function as room mic, which can be risky in unpredictable acoustics. And the solution should be universal.

<snip>

I have to take exception to this. I have been using MS for concert situations for a few years now and have been pretty happy with it. Mathematically the MS performs as does a Blumlein XY. It does have the advantage, however, that the M mic is pointed straight at the source of sound. This is not true in the Blumlein's case. Rolo46 will be interested in your appraisal of MS as he has posted some really wonderful MS tracks, and on a regular basis. Of concerts. I would suggest you find his posts with his recorded tracks. I'd post mine but his are much better and make a stronger argument in favor of the MS rig, for concerts.

If you wish I can post a clip from some tracks made in a small church with polished cement floors, bare walls, a low dome ceiling covered on the inside with shingles and the chamber orchestra in a corner and against the walls.

Rolo 46 20th July 2019 09:07 AM

Last week I was recording premieres for the Festival I archive for
Some of the other big events are recorded by the PA/Event company the Festival uses
They had a Zoom on a tall stand and a crossed pair on a taller concert stand
Not the way I would do it,Im still Mid Siding but with either MKH 80 or MKH 800 as mid, along with a MKH 30
I was mainly transcribing string quartets in a lovely Palladian Hall, or choral in a classic long chapel.
I was very happy with my string results, and working at much lower stand heights, just above music stand, using wide cardioid was very powerful tonally
I have abandoned room sound to a degree, to reduce noise, but on the choral and soprano plus piano still use fig 8 mid for rear lobe pick up
Variable pattern mid is a delicious tool to chase performance as so many performers now use the entire hall as a performance area.
The quality of playing was incredibly high, they all could turn on a pin head, hearing massed forces was more akin to a juggernaught
The ability to record inner detail really reveals the intimate conversation going on inside a SQ.
Sum and difference is a powerful tool
When in doubt press the mono button to check all are within the effective field, get within the critical distance and the event is captured.....
Roger

TakiJedenPan 20th July 2019 01:14 PM

There are several interesting points here. Lute is historically an instrument, I’d say, private in nature and tradition. Theoretically, therefore, it is perfectly suitable for a phonographic recording, much more than for a public concert in any hall with audience. But everyone hears it (and creates its phonographic picture) according to his own imagination.

A year ago I participated in a CD recording with a small, about 20-person choir in rich acoustics of large interior of a Renaissance chateau. There were also solos for one voice and a lute. After a few months I got the first mix and was struck by the overall beauty of the recording. Technically, the choir had several stereo pairs of mics in front of them, some in very wide stereo, the other close ones, including the Schoeps MSTC 64. I had one spot mic (dynamic!!) and a little further away and higher a pair of fingers in AB configuration. I was siting on one side, slightly bent towards the choir. The result was that the acoustics of the interior dominated over everything, rendered exceptionally rich. Unfortunately, the sung text disappeared, and the lute was only in the reflected sound, no details, articulation, internal dynamics. I admit it discourages completely from active participation in creating the piece, as you can actually play anything. After my reaction to this, I received a second mix, basically similar, with the difference that there was more very direct sound from the lute (perhaps from this dynamic mic?), as if glued on top of it, not organically effluent from the rest.

I admit, from that moment I become to hate the _rich acoustics_ of the space, but also the role of the recording person, who basically write his own score using a forest of mics, which he uses selectively according to his own idea, and is a connoisseur of ‘great acoustics’. A musician’s point of view seams much different, I’m afraid.

My initial idea with MS was based on the fact that above all there is the Mid mic there, and the Side one only serves to create space and panorama, but in moderation. The combination of these channels would be in my hands, but only to create space. Unfortunately, my technical experience is fare too small to assess the risk.

The concert is unique, but providing I’d benefit from this solution, I still don’t know how to mount a thick and heavy M179 parallel with the finger mic in a way that does not make a sensation in the audience. Although I have enough stands and bars at home, the mounting has so many adjustable connections that I would never, never! dare to do it half an hour before the concert.

From a painfully practical side, note that just before the concert musician’s attention and emotions are focused solely on playing/singing. I remember a situation a few years ago, when I finaly managed to set everything …in mid-summer, back wet from the sweat! The concert was very important. Only later I realized I forgot to turn on phantom power. Since then I am trying to limit the amount of technical activities to be carried out to an absolute, but absolut minimum …but I will not use a ‘shaver’ :) I know the sound engineer's approach is completely different.