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-   -   Neumann KH 750 - read before you buy it (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/1258394-neumann-kh-750-read-before-you-buy.html)

nekkio99 1st April 2019 10:38 AM

Neumann KH 750 - read before you buy it
 
Hello folks, I have bought a Neumann 750 KH and had it for 2 days. Very well built subwoofer, however please note:

- NONE of the DSP features are available at the moment (unless you are using the sub with a set of KH 80 speakers)

- there is no manual or documentation whatsoever (for the sub and for the software)

Neumann commented that they are "heavily working on a software update" to fix this. Sorry I heard this too many times before (and the people who waited over 1 year to get the software for the Neumann DH80 speakers have as well). I am returning my KH 750.

Hope this is helpful to anyone who is thinking of buying it and - like me - thought you could use the DSP features with any set of monitors you like. I would also comment that the total absence of a manual really does not help either. Very poor from a company like Neumann.

Hope this helps someone not getting in the same situation I have (i.e. buying a product that does not yet do what it is supposed to do)

PS just to clarify, the control app cannot even complete the set up if it doesn't find the KH80s connected, so you really have no access whatsoever to any DSP features for the kh 750. You cannot even set up the crossover point. Nothing at all.

John Willett 1st April 2019 01:32 PM

The documentation of the KH 750 is HERE.

nekkio99 1st April 2019 02:44 PM

Hi John

there is no manual at the link you sent. There is a quickstart guide (that does not cover anything more than one line descriptions of the back panel), there are marketing brochures of all kind, very useful guides on setting up speaker and subwooders (though not specific to any aprticular product) but no product manual AT ALL. Or no manual or even basic guide for the control app software AT ALL.

Say you want to connect to the subwoofer using the digital in: one has no idea what cable they need to use, the impedance of the inputs (75ohm? 100ohns?) what the situation is with clocking/sample rate etc: NOTHING.

This is as poor as poor can be.

joelpatterson 1st April 2019 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nekkio99 (Post 13898865)
....

This is as poor as poor can be.

No, actually this is great news for someone who never in nine million years could buy one of these. Thanks!

kaykaynotk 1st April 2019 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nekkio99 (Post 13898581)
Neumann commented that they are "heavily working on a software update" to fix this. Sorry I heard this too many times before (and the people who waited over 1 year to get the software for the Neumann DH80 speakers have as well).

This was a frustrating wait. Now also bear in mind if you really want to fully implement the KH series you'll need to wait for the Neumann measurement microphone. We may even see Brexit before this date!

Tbh I'm still tempted by the KH-750 as I'm keen to hear how a full range Neumann system performs but the same part of me that can't leave the analogue mixer behind is also thinking to just ditch DSP in speakers as well.

nekkio99 1st April 2019 04:17 PM

Very fair comments kaykaynotk, and very frustrating indeed.

I would also comment that if Neumann was more straight forward about having to wait I would see it very differently. At least you can weight your options and decide accordingly. But not saying anything, and you buy something that cannot do what advertised until they give you the software - god knows when - that really is out or order (and legally dubious too).

nater9 12th April 2019 01:42 AM

The good news is the KH-80's sound incredible right out of the box, just by using the switches in the back. I don't even have an iPod to download the app and set up the speakers... I can't imagine how good the sub will sound with them, and then how good they will sound once I can use the app.... someday. boing

badboygolf16v 3rd May 2019 02:14 PM

I have a pair of KH80s with a KH805 and was considering the KH750 as its size would work better in my room.

The KH80s are excellent.

However... The Neumann.Control app doesn't work with mine. I've tried following all of Neumann's suggestions and cannot get the app to work. I found a video of someone on YouTube having similar issues who returned his pair. My issues seem worse than his :-).

Also, it's iPad only, still no Android, PC or Mac.

Anyway they sound excellent so I will keep them, but if anyone was considering purchase to access the DSP features, I'd advise forgetting the KH80 for the time being.

SRS 11th May 2019 06:37 PM

Looks like all the KH750 documentation is on the Neumann website when I just looked. Have you figured this all out, or did you in fact return the sub? Curious. I have the KH420 with the KH870 sub and really respect and like the series. I also have the little KH120s too and love them as well. Big Neumann monitor fan here, and I've had my share of other brands through the years. Glad Neumann have continued on with the K&H line as they have.

thehightenor 23rd May 2019 10:59 PM

Could I add one of these to my K&H 0300's?

bull3t 28th May 2019 09:36 PM

anyone using kh80 + KH750? how the digital crossover works?

jdsierral 8th July 2019 06:35 AM

Kh750 + kh120d?
 
Is someone using this guy with KH120D? AES Through BNC connector? any updates on the DSP side without the KH80?


Thanks!

chrisdee 8th July 2019 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by badboygolf16v (Post 13960062)
I have a pair of KH80s with a KH805 and was considering the KH750 as its size would work better in my room.

The KH80s are excellent.

However... The Neumann.Control app doesn't work with mine. I've tried following all of Neumann's suggestions and cannot get the app to work. I found a video of someone on YouTube having similar issues who returned his pair. My issues seem worse than his :-).

Also, it's iPad only, still no Android, PC or Mac.

Anyway they sound excellent so I will keep them, but if anyone was considering purchase to access the DSP features, I'd advise forgetting the KH80 for the time being.

I too have the KH80's and really like them. (I think they sound better than the kh120 I had and sold, and they are a good fit for my small room. Also have the kh310, but they are stored in their boxes since they are to big for my room. )I see there is a sale on the KH805 and I'm considering buying. However my room is just a 81 square feet (square shaped). I'm wondering if the kh805 sub will be overkill in my room.

deedeeyeah 8th July 2019 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisdee (Post 14082960)
I too have the KH80's and really like them. (I think they sound better than the kh120 I had and sold, and they are a good fit for my small room. Also have the kh310, but they are stored in their boxes since they are to big for my room. )I see there is a sale on the KH805 and I'm considering buying. However my room is just a 81 square feet (square shaped). I'm wondering if the kh805 sub will be overkill in my room.

subs (and large speakers) are not really problematic in a small room: if you do experience any issues, it's the acoustic treatment (which is more difficult to get right in a small room) or the lack of.

can recommend the kh805 - one of the best subs for a reasonable amount of money imo. the 750 is equally impressive (and quite a bit smaller) - too bad neumann haven't got their dsp work in a convincing way (yet)...

jdsierral 11th July 2019 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisdee (Post 14082960)
I too have the KH80's and really like them. (I think they sound better than the kh120 I had and sold, and they are a good fit for my small room. Also have the kh310, but they are stored in their boxes since they are to big for my room. )I see there is a sale on the KH805 and I'm considering buying. However my room is just a 81 square feet (square shaped). I'm wondering if the kh805 sub will be overkill in my room.


Oh wow I wasn't even considering that option. So you are saying that selling the KH120s and buying the KH80s was a good move in your opinion? I can see the KH80s working better with the sub but its hard to say that they would sound better than the KH120s by themselves. Specially I'm curious if they can handle enough SPL and provide enough low end without a sub.

On the other hand, a driving factor for getting the KH120D was to be able to feed AES/EBU signal directly into the speaker which is also a possibility with the sub, but that option is not available in the KH80s. Any thoughts regarding that?

Finally, KH310s in a box? what? have you compared the sound of those to the KH80s? Im just curious :), its interesting that apparently you have had access to all of the different versions but you prefer the smallest ones XD :)

chrisdee 11th July 2019 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsierral (Post 14088597)
Oh wow I wasn't even considering that option. So you are saying that selling the KH120s and buying the KH80s was a good move in your opinion? I can see the KH80s working better with the sub but its hard to say that they would sound better than the KH120s by themselves.

I did compare them and I thought the 80s sounded better than the 120s by them self.
Clearer and more detailed. As people already has said don't be fooled by the small size. They have a lot of bass for the size.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsierral (Post 14088597)
Finally, KH310s in a box? what? have you compared the sound of those to the KH80s? Im just curious :), its interesting that apparently you have had access to all of the different versions but you prefer the smallest ones XD :)

Yes. They are physically to big the way I have setup my small home bedroom studio. I have kept them for the time being because I'm moving to a larger place. I will compare them when I get the kh805.


Without the sub it will be an unfair comparison.

kaykaynotk 12th July 2019 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsierral (Post 14088597)
...Specially I'm curious if they can handle enough SPL and provide enough low end without a sub...

The KH80 perform admirably but I wouldn't recommend them if you're looking for SPLs on the higher side. They remain composed but they start to belie their size when turned up, merely through scale of frequency rather than sounding coarsely boxy or anything.


How they then perform at higher SPLs with the sub taking some load off them is a question I'd like to hear an answer to in the flesh.

chrisdee 12th July 2019 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaykaynotk (Post 14090758)
THow they then perform at higher SPLs with the sub taking some load off them is a question I'd like to hear an answer to in the flesh.

I got the kh805 yesterday. Man it's so big compared to the front view image.
I though it was much smaller. It's really heavy too.

Anyway they do take some load of my kh80s but it's not a night and day difference. You acually have to listen critically to hear the difference. They do sound a bit more effortless and cleaner/more neutral with the sub.

But for someone with no ear training Im not shure the difference would be noticable. I can hear it but it's not a huge difference.

Then again my room probably sucks because it's small, square and not treated with bass traps or even measured. I have only treated with rockwool on all wall and roof surfaces for home recording of vocals. So in a good rom this combo will probably sound better.

The the bass on the 805 is great and it makes the 80s sound more neutral so it's all good.

jdsierral 3rd August 2019 09:46 PM

OK! I thought it would be good to share the latest. A couple of days I contacted Neumann to see if maybe I could get a hint of the estimated time to start supporting speakers others than KH 80s. They told me a new version that would do that was going to be released in a couple of days (yeah right! whoops they actually did it!).

So now they have released the new app that allows the user to mess with the processing on the KH120s, KH310 or KH420. So this is a huge upgrade for this product!

I've been testing for a couple of days and it really seems to deliver what promised. A few things here and there but its definitively a game changer for this product!
If anybody else has the opportunity to check it out, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

My own:
- They implemented phase correction down to 200-300Hz range, so the phase of the KH120 is now flat O.o... Im trying to figure out more about this part but it seems like its properly done, the impulse response doesn't have a ton of latency and I can't perceive or see any pre-ringing.
- The filters are really flexible (although a bit annoying to set up without being able to type the numbers in the iOS app :/ )
- It gives a lot of control for a DSP embedded on a sub. I mean if I were using some loudspeaker management processor I wouldn't expect anything less, but this is a DSP processor inside a subwoofer which in my opinion is not even expensive for the sound it delivers
- Theres no way to mess with the cross-over AFAIK, I'm guessing it must be attached to the phase correction part (at least that is how I would do it), which is sad although I'm not surprised.
- It seems like the communication protocol doesn't have the best design (e.g. all the filters are removed and reapplied if the app is closed and opened again). Maybe some further development could be done with it. Who knows O.o

JuanS

Matt Grinstead 4th August 2019 08:24 PM

KH 805
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisdee (Post 14082960)
I too have the KH80's and really like them. (I think they sound better than the kh120 I had and sold, and they are a good fit for my small room. Also have the kh310, but they are stored in their boxes since they are to big for my room. )I see there is a sale on the KH805 and I'm considering buying. However my room is just a 81 square feet (square shaped). I'm wondering if the kh805 sub will be overkill in my room.

I have the KH805 with the KH310s and I would highly recommend. The 805 is definitely bigger in size, but there shouldn't be a lot of difference other than that. The only performance difference I can think of would be the group delay. The 805 is a ported speaker and I think the 750 is a closed cabinet design. So, the 750 should have tighter extreme low sub bass (think 20-30Hz)...in theory...but it will be such a small difference it's probably imperceptible. If the 750 was around when I made my purchase, I would have chosen it for the space savings alone.

dinococcus 4th August 2019 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Grinstead (Post 14132183)
I have the KH805 with the KH310s and I would highly recommend. The 805 is definitely bigger in size, but there shouldn't be a lot of difference other than that. The only performance difference I can think of would be the group delay. The 805 is a ported speaker and I think the 750 is a closed cabinet design. So, the 750 should have tighter extreme low sub bass (think 20-30Hz)...in theory...but it will be such a small difference it's probably imperceptible. If the 750 was around when I made my purchase, I would have chosen it for the space savings alone.

The 750 can not delivery the spl level of the 805. I used a 810 in room of 200 m3 at a listening distance of 3 meters. The 750 could not works in this room.


There are the data of each sub on Neumann site web.

DownSideUp 20th November 2019 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdsierral (Post 14130841)
OK! I thought it would be good to share the latest. A couple of days I contacted Neumann to see if maybe I could get a hint of the estimated time to start supporting speakers others than KH 80s. They told me a new version that would do that was going to be released in a couple of days (yeah right! whoops they actually did it!).

So now they have released the new app that allows the user to mess with the processing on the KH120s, KH310 or KH420. So this is a huge upgrade for this product!

I've been testing for a couple of days and it really seems to deliver what promised. A few things here and there but its definitively a game changer for this product!
If anybody else has the opportunity to check it out, I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

My own:
- They implemented phase correction down to 200-300Hz range, so the phase of the KH120 is now flat O.o... Im trying to figure out more about this part but it seems like its properly done, the impulse response doesn't have a ton of latency and I can't perceive or see any pre-ringing.
- The filters are really flexible (although a bit annoying to set up without being able to type the numbers in the iOS app :/ )
- It gives a lot of control for a DSP embedded on a sub. I mean if I were using some loudspeaker management processor I wouldn't expect anything less, but this is a DSP processor inside a subwoofer which in my opinion is not even expensive for the sound it delivers
- Theres no way to mess with the cross-over AFAIK, I'm guessing it must be attached to the phase correction part (at least that is how I would do it), which is sad although I'm not surprised.
- It seems like the communication protocol doesn't have the best design (e.g. all the filters are removed and reapplied if the app is closed and opened again). Maybe some further development could be done with it. Who knows O.o

JuanS

very cool!

I'm wondering if the dsp app can align the sub to my Amphion One18. It's now suppose to be workable for their analog line ( kh120 etc), so there seem to be no reason for it to be used on other analog monitors ?

rincewind 20th November 2019 11:12 PM

The analogue corrections correct the magnitude AND phase response of the connected loudspeakers. The Amphions have a TOTALLY different phase response than the Neumanns so it is unlikely to work well no matter which model is selected in the software. If you had O 300 and selected KH 310 it would be quite close.

DownSideUp 20th November 2019 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rincewind (Post 14334354)
The analogue corrections correct the magnitude AND phase response of the connected loudspeakers. The Amphions have a TOTALLY different phase response than the Neumanns so it is unlikely to work well no matter which model is selected in the software. If you had O 300 and selected KH 310 it would be quite close.

Ok thanks I didn't quite grasp what the dsp does. I'll probably just use and external crossover. is it possible to totally bypass the dsp (and its ad-da) ?

rincewind 21st November 2019 12:03 AM

The block diagram on the website clearly shows that all input signals pass through the DSP.

DownSideUp 21st November 2019 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rincewind (Post 14334438)
The block diagram on the website clearly shows that all input signals pass through the DSP.

Ok thanks again, the dsp is always filtering below 18hz and all that. I'll probably just try them out ;)

sdpate 28th November 2019 01:27 PM

Neumann KH 750 DSP Manuals
 
I just checked the Neumann website and the user manual and tons of other documentation are available.

badboygolf16v 6th December 2019 02:31 PM

In case anyone comes to this thread and sees my comments about not being able to set up the KH80 with Neumann.Control, the latest version of the app has allowed me to set up the KH80 with no issues. It's a fantastic speaker and I highly recommend it.

msflsim 27th January 2020 04:54 PM

How is the KH 750 working out for those that have it? Anyone using it or a pair with KH 310s?

I currently have the 80s and the 310s and thinking of adding a pair of 750s

SRS 28th January 2020 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msflsim (Post 14492577)
How is the KH 750 working out for those that have it? Anyone using it or a pair with KH 310s?

I currently have the 80s and the 310s and thinking of adding a pair of 750s

Still love it. Have KH420s and KH120s as well.