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youridebruijn 26th February 2019 01:04 PM

Building a studio on 2 levels
 
3 Attachment(s)
Hi there,

It's my first thread on here so if I'm in the wrong place just let me know. O, and sorry for my English.

So, I'm building a studio with 4 to 5 (small) rooms/booths.
3 downstairs and 1 or 2 upstairs and maybe a small vocal booth.

My biggest concern is that there'll be "crosstalk" (if that's the right word) I mean, that you'll be able to hear the music/instruments from, lets say studio 1 while working in studio 2.

I'm looking for advice and help on this specific build. I'd like the rooms to be as big as possible but don't want to make my walls too thin. Any advice or insight is welcome.

Let's start with the groundfloor as I'll be building that first.
See the 3D sketch and upper floorplan on the other sketch.

Studio 1 and 2:
Approx. both 7m2 (2mx3,9m)
These studios will mainly be used for musiclessons and some musicproduction.

Studio 3:
Approx. 16m2 (Studio 3 will be assigned to a druminstructor so it will house 2 kits but maybe even a 3 piece band at one time. So it needs really good isolation from the rest. I was thinking; building an inner box on springs or antvibration mounts and building a fixed box around it but not touching. (see 3rd image)


So..
What do you think about my approach, underdoing it?
Wrong materials? Not doable?
Or maybe you have drawing for me to study?

I'd like to hear anyones oppinion on this matter.

bert stoltenborg 26th February 2019 05:52 PM

I would use double drywall for all partitions as that wil give better sound reduction and makes sealing gaps easier.

This construction with single drywall will realize maybe 40 dB(music) sound attenuation if everything is done right.

With double drywall you might gain 3-4 dB.

A brick wall with a decoupled drywall construction in front with the same thickness does 50 dB(music).

A double drumset in a small room easy has a level exceeding 110 dB(A).
So in the next room you experience, depending on construction, 70 - 60 dB(A).

Take into account that a floating floor isn't as easy to calculate as a wall or ceiling and it is crucial for your end results.

And you should think about ventilation in these kind of rooms or you cannot work in them.

youridebruijn 26th February 2019 07:52 PM

Thanks Bert, so my plan was to do studio 3 with double layers of drywall on inside and outside, with double rockwool between it. And the studio next to that just half of that but I'll probably change that to the same construction.

So then there will be 6 layers of drywall and 3 to 4 sheets of rockwool between the sources. Do you think that would approach tje -60db -70db norm?

About brickwall; I'm renting the place and I think that would be harder to remove eventually.

bert stoltenborg 26th February 2019 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youridebruijn (Post 13834433)
T

So then there will be 6 layers of drywall and 3 to 4 sheets of rockwool between the sources. Do you think that would approach tje -60db -70db norm?

Done properly you should come close to the 40 dB reduction.

youridebruijn 27th February 2019 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg (Post 13834474)
Done properly you should come close to the 40 dB reduction.

Hmm.. is there a way to habe more reduction? I read some stuff about sand..?

EvilRoy 27th February 2019 03:23 AM

Malcolm Chisholm: Modern Control Room Design and Construction/1994 has always been my goto resource. He writes;

As anybody with a little studio experience knows, the usual control room walls shut out the top end sound from the studio very well indeed, but if you sky a condenser mike the 30 to 50 Hz feedback will like to send the woofer cones across the room.
Fact is, most control rooms have marginal isolation at low frequencies as a result of wall construction, very big windows, and/or sound transmission through the floors and ceil- ings. We will deal with each of these one at a time, beginning with the control room walls.
To avid transmitting sound, a wall must be rigid enough not to drum head section by section, heavy enough not to move as a whole, and airtight.
The only ordinary construction that meets all those specifications is masonry. This is not a popular idea. In fact, it's usually met with disbelief, followed by sputterings about weight, costs, and problems with the landlord.
Most of the objections are based on misinformation, although the weight problem can be real. Even with the lightweight cinder block currently available, masonry walls come in at about three times the mass of the more conventional double wall with an inch of Gypsum board on each side.
So if the foundation slab won't take the weight, forget it. On the other hand, if there's any possibility of using masonry it would be real smart to look into it, as there are a number of advantages to the stuff. Among these are speed of construction, which makes the total costs very competitive, the cleanliness of the process in building a wall and tearing it down, and the fact that cinder block is a good acoustical material in and of itself. Primarily, though, block is rigid, with the result that it's inherent low frequency re- jection is rather better than flexible materials.
The rigidity bit is what separates silk sows from standard oinkers.
Building a rigid wall with flexible materials is obviously absurd, and becomes embar- rassing if one looks at the published data on Gypsum paneled walls. Not the STC fig- ures, which are a form of average loss intended for rough comparisons rather than de- sign purposes, but the more complex charts which list losses at various frequencies. A quick look at those shows that the 125 Hz loss of walls is commonly 20 dB or so less than the published STC loss. They're supposed to, because the STC contour has a built in 20 DB slope from 1.25 Khz to 125 Hz, but even allowing for that, STC is an unreliable figure for music isolation, where the bass is likely to be as loud as anything else, if not louder.
As an example, an STC 35 2x4 wall with 1/2 inch Gypsum board on each side loses 47 dB at 2 Khz, but only 15 dB at 125 Hz. Double the board thickness, the STC is 39 and the 2 Khz figure rises to 53, but at 125 Hz it's still 15. That's a difference of 24 dB be- tween STC and low end performance. Build for 39, get 15. We need a minimum of 28, remember? So if you sky a drum mike......
While a 2x4 frame is nearly as heavy as one layer of Gypsum board, you'd expect that nearly doubling the mass of a wall would improve it's isolation. In fact, nothing happens at 125 Hz, and the 15 dB loss through the walls just detailed is 3 dB worse than for a single sheet on an open frame, which demonstrates that Gypsum board is a fairly strange material in terms of soundproofing. That's not to say it's no good; just that it's peculiarities have to be taken into account when designing for isolation.

- malcolmchisholm.com

Temple of Light 27th February 2019 03:24 AM

Contact these guys:
Soundproofing San Francisco | Soundproofing | West Coast Sound Solutions
They will help you get it right, they really have a handle on this stuff...

YYMV

Light
yingyang:synth:cooge
Temple

bert stoltenborg 27th February 2019 11:11 AM

You can increase the masses, make the gaps larger or do both.
You already use decoupling so that are the options.

youridebruijn 27th February 2019 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Temple of Light (Post 13835157)
Contact these guys:
Soundproofing San Francisco | Soundproofing | West Coast Sound Solutions
They will help you get it right, they really have a handle on this stuff...

Thanks, I see they use the green glue. I might be using that between the double layers of drywall.

youridebruijn 27th February 2019 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg (Post 13835593)
You can increase the masses, make the gaps larger or do both.
You already use decoupling so that are the options.

You were talking about a brickwall. Do you mean like the redbrickstone walls or cinderblocks. Do they need the have cement between them or would maybe a GG sealant also work? (will be easier to remove if I stop renting it)

youridebruijn 27th February 2019 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilRoy (Post 13835154)
Malcolm Chisholm: Modern Control Room Design and Construction/1994 has always been my goto resource. He writes;

As anybody with a little studio experience knows, the usual control room walls shut out the top end sound from the studio very well indeed, but if you sky a condenser mike the 30 to 50 Hz feedback will like to send the woofer cones across the room.
Fact is, most control rooms have marginal isolation at low frequencies as a result of wall construction, very big windows, and.....[/url]

Thanks for your detailed comment.

bert stoltenborg 27th February 2019 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youridebruijn (Post 13835776)
You were talking about a brickwall. Do you mean like the redbrickstone walls or cinderblocks. Do they need the have cement between them or would maybe a GG sealant also work? (will be easier to remove if I stop renting it)

Heavier is better.
I wonder how you are going to use GG as a kind of mortar?
GG is not a glue but a constraint layer product used between two sheets of f.e. drywall, it doesn't cure and thus puts friction into heat. It makes a wall less resonant and reduces coincidence. It also is fairly expensive.
There is glue for block walls so you don't have to use cement for structural integrity.

EvilRoy 27th February 2019 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youridebruijn (Post 13835784)
Thanks for your detailed comment.

You're welcome. I highly recommend reading the full article he wrote for Mix Magazine. He goes on to suggest 2" of particle board as an alternative to masonry because of the rigidity. Laminate walls (using GG) also work well to decouple layers.

youridebruijn 27th February 2019 08:50 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Okay. So I've been sketching the design for studio 1 and 2 for a bit, with all the information from here and from video's. (see image)

For the room with drums I'm considering a same kinda structure but with a brickwall somewhere in there.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
These are all downstairs and build on concrete. The one going upstairs won't be really good, It's only about 220-230cm high and has a woodenfloor.

youridebruijn 27th February 2019 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg (Post 13835790)
Heavier is better.
I wonder how you are going to use GG as a kind of mortar?
GG is not a glue but a constraint layer product used between two sheets of f.e. drywall, it doesn't cure and thus puts friction into heat. It makes a wall less resonant and reduces coincidence. It also is fairly expensive.
There is glue for block walls so you don't have to use cement for structural integrity.


Yeah been reading up on GG now. This is actually sounding as an interesting construction for the drumroom.

What would a structure with brickwall look like?

Inside |Drywall | Drywall | Sheetrock | Air | Brickwall | Outside?

youridebruijn 27th February 2019 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilRoy (Post 13835823)
You're welcome. I highly recommend reading the full article he wrote for Mix Magazine. He goes on to suggest 2" of particle board as an alternative to masonry because of the rigidity. Laminate walls (using GG) also work well to decouple layers.


Hmm.. Wouldnt MDF be way better? As it has more mass?

RyanC 27th February 2019 09:03 PM

I have an upstairs downstairs studio situation that's workable (but not ideal for me, but it's temporary), so have some experience with this. A couple questions-

Is this is a recording studio or for music lesson teaching suites, or both?

Maybe the most important question is how the building is built. Is it all wood frame? Is the downstairs a slab on grade? Neighbors?

bert stoltenborg 27th February 2019 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youridebruijn (Post 13836510)
Hmm.. Wouldnt MDF be way better? As it has more mass?

You can not substitute a solid double brick wall with particle board. And a lightweight construction should not be rigid.
And I give you the free advise to read more about floating a floor, about resonance frequencies, flanking sound transmission, dynamical loading of a floor and how a floor and wall joint has to be done; that's way more difficult and important than pondering about walls. :)

deedeeyeah 27th February 2019 09:26 PM

so many rooms but they're all so small...

youridebruijn 27th February 2019 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RyanC (Post 13836526)
I have an upstairs downstairs studio situation that's workable (but not ideal for me, but it's temporary), so have some experience with this. A couple questions-

Is this is a recording studio or for music lesson teaching suites, or both?

Maybe the most important question is how the building is built. Is it all wood frame? Is the downstairs a slab on grade? Neighbors?

Not a recordingstudio. 90% musiclessons but 1 or 2 studio's will be used by 1 or 2 producers (electronic music) when there are no lessons.


Downstairs is concrete, upstairs wood.

youridebruijn 27th February 2019 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deedeeyeah (Post 13836571)
so many rooms but they're all so small...

Why would you need big rooms? More rooms pay the bills better.

Edit: maybe it's good to know that these are for teachers mostly

deedeeyeah 27th February 2019 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youridebruijn (Post 13836591)
Why would you need big rooms? More rooms pay the bills better.

Edit: maybe it's good to know that these are for teachers mostly

you know much better what you need than anyone else - but smaller rooms are harder to get them to sound okay and they don't feel very nice, especially for folks teaching in there on hours... - good luck!

youridebruijn 27th February 2019 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg (Post 13836535)
You can not substitute a solid double brick wall with particle board. And a lightweight construction should not be rigid.
And I give you the free advise to read more about floating a floor, about resonance frequencies, flanking sound transmission, dynamical loading of a floor and how a floor and wall joint has to be done; that's way more difficult and important than pondering about walls. :)


Hi Bert, yeah, I didn't mean that, sorry, my bad. Misschien moeten we in het Nederlands verder gaan? ;) Dan begrijpen we elkaar wat makkelijker misschien.

But if I build the floor on a polypress/OSB/Underlay/Laminate construction, don't let it touch the walls and seal it with GG. Isn't that kinda floating. I find it hard to find good information of it.

Eidt1: O, wait. Do you mean, that I should build the floor on beams which are supported by the wall but don't touch the concrete floor?

Edit2: I also know that Auralex sells U-boat Floor Floaters. Is that a good option? Looks a bit weak.

bert stoltenborg 27th February 2019 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youridebruijn (Post 13836612)
Hi Bert, yeah, I didn't mean that, sorry, my bad. Misschien moeten we in het Nederlands verder gaan? ;) Dan begrijpen we elkaar wat makkelijker misschien.

But if I build the floor on a polypress/OSB/Underlay/Laminate construction, don't let it touch the walls and seal it with GG. Isn't that kinda floating. I find it hard to find good information of it.

Je moet berekenen hoe zo'n vloer zich gedraagt. Hij moet bij een bepaald gewicht een bepaald percentage inveren, bijvoorbeeld.
En in jouw voorbeeld heb je geluidsoverdracht naar de basisvloer. Je zou je wand op de vloer moeten zetten of een andere truuc toepassen.

You have to calculate how such a floor behaves. He must withstand a certain percentage at a certain weight, for example.
And in your example you have sound transfer to the basic floor. You should put your wall on the floor or apply another trick. :) (for the poor bastards who don't speak dutch :heh:)

youridebruijn 27th February 2019 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bert stoltenborg (Post 13836624)
Je moet berekenen hoe zo'n vloer zich gedraagt. Hij moet bij een bepaald gewicht een bepaald percentage inveren, bijvoorbeeld.
En in jouw voorbeeld heb je geluidsoverdracht naar de basisvloer. Je zou je wand op de vloer moeten zetten of een andere truuc toepassen.

You have to calculate how such a floor behaves. He must withstand a certain percentage at a certain weight, for example.
And in your example you have sound transfer to the basic floor. You should put your wall on the floor or apply another trick. :) (for the poor bastards who don't speak dutch :heh:)

Okay I get. Makes so much sense. Ill be back with new drawings.

youridebruijn 27th February 2019 11:08 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Aaaand back... I found this company over here, called Plaka. All the black stuff is from their Isofloat productline called dBreak. It all works with metalstud and they even have dBreak products for floating ceilings.

What do you think?

youridebruijn 27th February 2019 11:29 PM

1 Attachment(s)
And maybe even better. The complete inner "box" is on Isofloat supports.
Let me know what you think.

EvilRoy 27th February 2019 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by youridebruijn (Post 13836510)
Hmm.. Wouldnt MDF be way better? As it has more mass?

Maybe, walls are pretty much mass law devices."Georgia-Pacific lists 63 varieties of the stuff, ranging from thin,flexible, incredibly cheap chip board to something called Lamiboard, at 200 pounds for a one inch sheet."
Malcolm only mentions particle and I couldn't find the frequency specific specs on MDF.

Not sure what bert's comment about substituting a double brick wall is about. I'm talking about using something heavier and more rigid than drywall (read the article for the many reasons). Not sure why light weight construction shouldn't be rigid either, no reason was given.

Soundman2020 27th February 2019 11:54 PM

Be careful with light-weight decks for "floating floors"! Not a good idea....
There's a very interesting thread on another forum all about the common myths and legends of "floating" floors.... You might find it interesting!
John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum •

View topic - Is a Floating Floor Right For You? Answer: Probably NOT.

youridebruijn 28th February 2019 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EvilRoy (Post 13836828)
Maybe, walls are pretty much mass law devices."Georgia-Pacific lists 63 varieties of the stuff, ranging from thin,flexible, incredibly cheap chip board to something called Lamiboard, at 200 pounds for a one inch sheet."
Malcolm only mentions particle and I couldn't find the frequency specific specs on MDF.

Not sure what bert's comment about substituting a double brick wall is about. I'm talking about using something heavier and more rigid than drywall (read the article for the many reasons). Not sure why light weight construction shouldn't be rigid either, no reason was given.

Yeah, true is not only about mass. And there are indeed good argument against drywall, I'll probably do both drywalll and woods.