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-   -   real men don't use shock mounts (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remote-possibilities-in-location-recording-amp-production/1222089-real-men-dont-use-shock-mounts.html)

studer58 4th July 2018 07:56 AM

real men don't use shock mounts
 
Sometimes a shock mount is an extra bridge too far, if you're recording on a concrete floor where there's no likelihood of stand transmitted vibration.
That's where this could come in handy...low cost, back to the '60's !

Xaudia Mount-A-Mic |

David Spearritt 4th July 2018 09:09 AM

Never understand why people don't place the isolation under the mic stand, where the extra mass recruited will lower the natural frequency of system. Always better than any shock mount.

studer58 4th July 2018 09:24 AM

I think it would depend if it's a concert recording with the public attending, or a dedicated recording session where you could expect more care in the foot traffic around the stand ?

In the former case, compliant material between the stand and floor is the least desirable place for it, because you want a really solid coupling between the two....it's why I'll often gaffa tape the tripod feet to the floor (so an accidental audience kick doesn't send the stand off balance....:facepalm:) In that scenario the mic shockmount has to do all the work.

For a dedicated session, I'll often put Sorbothane pucks under each foot of the stand. Stand mass is only part of the equation, it's the compliance and resilience of any damping material which also plays a role.

John Willett 4th July 2018 10:23 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Spearritt (Post 13401922)
Never understand why people don't place the isolation under the mic stand, where the extra mass recruited will lower the natural frequency of system. Always better than any shock mount.

The BBC used (maybe still do) use the K&M model 200 mic. stand.

These had anti-vibration feet - I have a few of these myself. kfhkh
.

Rolo 46 4th July 2018 11:00 AM

Iso feet don't work as well as a Lyre mount, both together better, the BBC had Agrippa Stands of huge mass and a compression shock absorber
You would be a real Dick if you didn't use a shock mount
They came about for Boom working, microphone manufacturers hardly bothered with such devices and thence into music recording where they are essential nowadays imho
Roger

hughshouse 4th July 2018 11:17 AM

Almost 50 years of real world experience has taught me to expect all types of unfortunate accidental contact with mic stands along with various floor transfers. Real men anticipate and plan for the worst in their professional endeavors.
Hugh

Folkie 4th July 2018 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hughshouse (Post 13402028)
Almost 50 years of real world experience has taught me to expect all types of unfortunate accidental contact with mic stands along with various floor transfers. Real men anticipate and plan for the worst in their professional endeavors.
Hugh

Besides, who wants to carry both regular AND
shockmounts. I’ve got enough stereo mic mounts, foam windscreens etc plus mics in my one mic suitcase. I am happy to stick with routine use of
my Rycote lyre mounts.

David Spearritt 4th July 2018 12:49 PM

Shock mounts amplify at the resonance. Structure borne energy will excite that resonance.
Shame a shock mount was not used in this recording.
YouTube

Thomas W. Bethe 4th July 2018 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by studer58 (Post 13401931)

For a dedicated session, I'll often put Sorbothane pucks under each foot of the stand. Stand mass is only part of the equation, it's the compliance and resilience of any damping material which also plays a role.

Especially if the stands are on the same stage as the piano or other instruments you are recording. GREAT suggestion and one I used to use a lot on my recording sessions.

frans 4th July 2018 01:19 PM

The Xaudia mount-a-mic is especially for oddball and old mics where you can't easily just get something fitting from Thomann. It's more for old B+O, Melodium, Tannoy, Reslo, STC and other ancient stuff nobody cares about. Except questionable characters like me. His "extinct audio" ribbon mics are very, very fine - even if nobody knows them. And while we are at debating shock mounts versus shock absorbing stands i'd like to remind you of rumble transmitted mechanically via the cable that's plugged into the mic.

studer58 4th July 2018 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frans (Post 13402158)
And while we are at debating shock mounts versus shock absorbing stands i'd like to remind you of rumble transmitted mechanically via the cable that's plugged into the mic.

Good point...that's why responsible shock mount makers (Rycote, Sennheiser and others) include a moulded friction-pressure grip for the cable on the side of their mounts...and also why it's worth making a small loop of free cable near the mic and taping it to the boom arm to act as a vibration sink for anything travelling up via the cable jacket.

What are the problematic frequencies for stand or cable borne vibration anyway....somewhere between 1 and 10Hz would be my guess, or perhaps where it intersects with the coupling compliance of the capsule mounting inside the mic body ?

Interestingly it's the reverse of the hi-fi speaker dilemma, where owners are advised to screw pointy tips into the base of the speaker which contacts a sprung floor...to avoid passing the cabinet vibrations into the floor (they called it a 'mechanical diode' ...implying a 1 way path only for vibrations) Of course the opposite was desired in the case of record turntables, so that floor or supporting stand movements wouldn't travel up the tonearm and interfere with the tonearm/stylus/record integrity....which is similar to the mic stand scenario

Folkie 4th July 2018 05:39 PM

Yes, resonance of the shockmount is possible but
i haven’t personally seen it with the Rycote lyre mounts.
I have helped with several live recordings of the
Wanamaker organ, largest functioning pipe organ in the world, plus piano or orchestra.
The piano or orchestra were located on the 2nd
floor (below and in front of the pipe chambers) plywood covered balcony stage. No stage resonances were passed through the Rycote
lyre mounts. In the initial stages of hanging PA speakers plus subs underneath the front edge
of the balcony there was some audible (and vibration felt) stage resonance but none coupled through to Rycote lyre mounted mics on stage for the piano. Also there was a pair of Rycote lyre mounted mics clamped to the metal ridges inside the piano with only a layer of cardboard protecting
the piano from being scratched by the clamps. No
resonances got through to the mics.

John Willett 5th July 2018 01:46 PM

While we are talking about resonance...

THIS links to the PDF of Chris Woolf's article "Keeping Mics Quiet" which includes measurements of various types of shock mount, including the Lyre.

Second best seems to be the Shure / Gefell "donut" type.

norfolksoundman9 5th July 2018 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Willett (Post 13403909)
Second best seems to be the Shure / Gefell "donut" type.

John, this is an odd conclusion to reach: look more closely at the blue-shaded areas that have been added to highlight the key aspect of these graphs, not least for the Osix (for which the graph is given for the lower mass CCM41 only - this is similar to the Rycote for this mic and, one can only assume, has similarly better isolation for the heavier CMC641). More to the point, in the main text above the graphs Chris Woolf explicitly describes the Osix and Rycote lyre systems as better than the earlier systems, which include the 'donut'!

The amplification of very low frequencies/resonant frequencies on these graphs is interesting, although, of course, they are most relevant to hand-held or boomed mics (not taking into account the mass of microphone stands and any damping below the feet).

Cheers,

Roland

Brent Hahn 5th July 2018 03:09 PM

Had to laugh at the title, given that there may be no more effective shock mount than the human scrotum.

aracu 5th July 2018 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Spearritt (Post 13401922)
Never understand why people don't place the isolation under the mic stand, where the extra mass recruited will lower the natural frequency of system. Always better than any shock mount.

I agree. I test various materials and attach small pieces to the parts of the tripod which make contact with the ground.

John Willett 5th July 2018 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by norfolksoundman9 (Post 13404023)
John, this is an odd conclusion to reach: look more closely at the blue-shaded areas that have been added to highlight the key aspect of these graphs, not least for the Osix (for which the graph is given for the lower mass CCM41 only - this is similar to the Rycote for this mic and, one can only assume, has similarly better isolation for the heavier CMC641). More to the point, in the main text above the graphs Chris Woolf explicitly describes the Osix and Rycote lyre systems as better than the earlier systems, which include the 'donut'!

The amplification of very low frequencies/resonant frequencies on these graphs is interesting, although, of course, they are most relevant to hand-held or boomed mics (not taking into account the mass of microphone stands and any damping below the feet).

Cheers,

Roland

The Rycote Lyre and the Osix are very similar and the Osix has improved since they changed away from the wire spring to a Hytrel version.

Then, after these, if I remember correctly, comes the donut type.

joelpatterson 5th July 2018 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn (Post 13404029)
Had to laugh at the title, given that there may be no more effective shock mount than the human scrotum.

That all depends of what you're trying to shock.

Brent Hahn 5th July 2018 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joelpatterson (Post 13404050)
That all depends on what you're trying to shock.

Or what you're trying to mount.

joelpatterson 5th July 2018 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn (Post 13404051)
Or what you're trying to mount.

:amaze:

Octopon 17th August 2018 10:14 PM

Putting something underneath a mic stand is a nice idea, but ultimately I want my isolation happening as close to the mic as possible to avoid any vibrations introduced after the pads on the floor. Plus, putting stuff under a mic stand can be a pain when you need to move a stand or anything else. Just makes extra work with a good shock mount on the mic is what is really needed.

studer58 18th August 2018 02:36 AM

I guess you could bond the damping material to the underside of the stand feet, but that could also introduce instability if there’s foot traffic nearby. I’ve often thought the ideal would be a magnetically repelling ball and socket ‘joint’ like a a shoulder joint, with the 3 stand feet having ball-shaped ends and the sockets being 3 dished cups on the floor underneath the feet....strong repelling magnets in each would create a tiny floating air gap between each foot/ each cup ?

aracu 18th August 2018 06:52 AM

I attach small pieces of damping material to ends of the legs of the stand's tripod.

Rolo 46 18th August 2018 09:45 AM

Ambient do a 'floater' mic isolation device thats good foe stereo arrays
But whats wrong with a Lyre?

studer58 18th August 2018 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aracu (Post 13475033)
I attach small pieces of damping material to ends of the legs of the stand's tripod.

That sounds more like 'hope' than 'a method' ? The damping material would need to withstand the compression of the weight of the stand...the 2 together become 'a system', in the same way that Rycote's lyres are tuned to the mass of the particular mics they are paired with

aracu 18th August 2018 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by studer58 (Post 13475193)
Quote:

Originally Posted by aracu (Post 13475033)
I attach small pieces of damping material to ends of the legs of the stand's tripod.

That sounds more like 'hope' than 'a method' ? The damping material would need to withstand the compression of the weight of the stand...the 2 together become 'a system', in the same way that Rycote's lyres are tuned to the mass of the particular mics they are paired with

It's a part of an overall system in which gear is kept down to a minimum weight by using lightweight mics and custom carbon fibre stands. By using mic stand tripods which terminate in damping material, and thin carbon fibre stands which transmit fewer vibrations, shockmounts adding to the overall weight are not needed.

However it is true what you are pointing out, that in a typical gear scenario using unnecessarily heavy mic stands and microphones (a sign of professionalism within consumer culture) the damping material would be pressed down in such a way as to be less functional.

aracu 18th August 2018 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by studer58 (Post 13475193)
Rycote's lyres are tuned to the mass of the particular mics they are paired with

Free advertising based in a claim lacking in credibility.

studer58 18th August 2018 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aracu (Post 13475355)
It's a part of an overall system in which gear is kept down to a minimum weight by using lightweight mics and custom carbon fibre stands. By using mic stand tripods which terminate in damping material, and thin carbon fibre stands which transmit fewer vibrations, shockmounts adding to the overall weight are not needed.

However it is true what you are pointing out, that in a typical gear scenario using unnecessarily heavy mic stands and microphones (a sign of professionalism within consumer culture) the damping material would be pressed down in such a way as to be less functional.

That sounds (intuitively...I wish I'd paid more attention in physics classes !) to be a good approach in negating shock transmission, by reducing mass.

However if shocks are propagated longitudinally along the length of the supporting member (stand), then rigidity would be more significant than mass ?

I've filled my thin hollow steel mic stand rods with liquid roof-seal silicone...when flicked with the finger they now give a dull thud, rather than the sustained riiiiing they had previously.

Whether that translates to reduced shock transmission I don't know.....hifi folks fill their speaker stands with dry sand and lead shot pellets to achieve similar ends

Folkie 18th August 2018 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aracu (Post 13475360)
Free advertising based in a claim lacking in credibility.

Actually, Studer is correct. See this article in SOS
by Hugh Robjohns. Rycote InVision USM & TLM |
Rycote lyre mounts are designed with various shore values (to minimize vibration transmission
for mics of different weights) and various designs
depending on whether a mic is a large side-fire
vs end-fire mic.

aracu 18th August 2018 04:31 PM

It's a claim which is impossible to be accurate because of the wide ranging differences in weight that a mic with a particular circumference can have.