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fl00die 3rd June 2016 12:09 PM

Sound proof studio / mancave thoughts?
 
Hi guys,

Summer is ALMOST here and just about to order all the wood for mine and my sons garden mancave/music studio project.

It is the first time I have done anything sound related before and after quite a lot of research I have come to the following design. Would you mind letting me know if there are any glaringly obvious problems or things I can adjust. It would be much appreciated.

Base
- Unfortunately built on piles in the ground and a large wooden frame.Wanted concrete but it wasn't possible

FROM OUTSIDE TO INSIDE
Outter walls
- Cladding
- Battons
- Building wrap
- 2x4 stud work
- Infilled with 100mm Rockwool RW3

Air gap of around 5-6cm

Inner wall
- 3x2 stud work
- Infilled with 75mm rockwool rw3
- OSB3 18mm sheets
- 12.5mm plaster board
- Plaster

Floating floor notes
- U-boat things under every joist to float / decouple it above the main wooden base
- 75mm high infilled with rockwool rw3
- OSB3 18mm sheet on top
- Inner walls secured on this.

Floating ceiling notes
- This will be placed to span the inner walls and will NOT touch the main roof joists or ANY outer walls
- 75mm rockwool rw3 between joists
- OSB3 18mm attached to underside of floating ceiling
- 12.5mm plaster board attached to OSB
- Plaster skim

Main roof joists
- to be infilled with 100mm rockwool rw3

No Windows

Doors
- Outer - French door style only attached to outer frame
- Inner - A solid steel door opening inwards only attached to inner frame

Ventilation - 2 "tunnels" both baffled and one has an Exit fan to push hot air out.. the other tunnel wont need a fan as it will draw air in to replace the air pushed out (I hope)

I don't quite know what to put ontop of the OSB on the floating floor. and whether I need something in between all the OSB and plasterboard on all walls and ceilings.

Any help would be much appreciated

thanks guys
David (and son)

fl00die 6th June 2016 02:16 PM

Any ideas peeps?

Micoholic 6th June 2016 02:35 PM

Hello. I think the outside shell sounds a little light. Might need a bit more mass, and also will need to be airtight.
Maybe a second layer of plasterboard on the inside too.
Might want to ask someone about the floating floor, as I seem to recollect they ain't so good.

Good luck with it anyway!

Glenn Kuras 6th June 2016 03:48 PM

I would recommend you buy the book "Build it like the pros". Great book if you want to really do things right the FIRST time. kfhkh

Kyle P. Gushue 7th June 2016 11:37 AM

+1 on build it like the pros.!!!

Use standard r value fluffy insulation for the wall cavities, it's cheaper an as effective, often better, than Rockwool for sonics. Don't bother floating the floor. If you must float the floor for some odd reason, don't use U boats. Rockwool with double layers of plywood on top, staggered seems gives you a floating floor that's functional.

I'm not exactly familiar with you or floor construction style, but if there's exposed wooden bays, you can back fill them with sand, and put plywood on them. (Possibly if code permits)

I'm not sure what a floating ceiling is. I'm assuming you mean the new ceiling rests on the new walls? This is known as an independently framed ceiling.

Don't "hope" your ventilation is adequate, make sure. Sweating in the studio sucks, and remember your gear creates heat, a lot, depending on what you have. One of the studios I work in requires no heat in the winter because of the gear and body heat. You're undoubtably going to want a way to heat and cool the fresh air your bringing in. You need all 3, heat, ac, fresh air.

There's plenty of BTU calcs out there free, no excuses. I use an app called "calculate BTU". For iPad.

There is no need to use Rockwool anywhere inside wall or ceiling cavities, use the fluffy R value, Unfaced stuff.

Double doors aren't necessarily best. Twice as much gasketing, door hardware, installation time, and twice as many door stops. Twice as many times you have to open a door.

One basic solid core door (not solid hardwood, any solid filled door is fine) with addititionl mass added to it, is going to do what you need, likely cheaper and easier, than a double door. Double doors may not be in accordance with building codes.

I didn't see caulking on the list, just figured I'd add that in case.

fl00die 9th June 2016 12:03 PM

micholic : A little light?. it is the 10cm thickness which seems to be the thickest possible?... along with the air gap and room in a room.

GLenn : thanks that's great, looking on amazon now!

Kyle : thank you for your lengthy post.. Appreciated.. I have a couple of comments.
- Do you mind suggesting an alternative then to the rather expensive Rockwool RW3 if you don't mind?. there seems to be loads and im worried to use just normal DIY rolls for lofts etc.

- The floating floor... Are you sure I shouldn't float the floor?.... From these forums I have always read how things should be decoupled... If I didn't have a floating floor that the inner walls are build off then the inner walls would be connected to the wood base which in turn is connected to the outer walls.. This isn't decoupled at all... you could then ask the question of having a room within a room at all?.. honest query there if you could help if much appreciate it...

- floating ceiling.. Well its not, but imagine the joists of a roof that are say 60cm apart from each other... the say I have lower joists that are running parallel to the main rood joists but slightly lower and in between the 60cm voids of the roof joists... these lower/floating joists keen the main inner room solid as they connect the inner walls together but still are decoupled from the outer shell.. hope that helps

- thanks re: the ventilation.. im looking at it now as a real priority in the room and not just as a "ah well, lets bung a fan in somewhere"... thank you.

- Yes caulking will be done

Micoholic 9th June 2016 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fl00die (Post 11952693)
micholic : A little light?. it is the 10cm thickness which seems to be the thickest possible?... along with the air gap and room

Hello. By light I meant lack of mass. I've assumed your outer wall to be wood, so sorry if I've misinterpreted. You need mass air mass, so if the outer shell is lightweight and unsealed, it won't be very affective at keeping sound in or out.

Hope that helps. And good luck!

Kyle P. Gushue 9th June 2016 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fl00die (Post 11952693)
micholic : A little light?. it is the 10cm thickness which seems to be the thickest possible?... along with the air gap and room in a room.

GLenn : thanks that's great, looking on amazon now!

Kyle : thank you for your lengthy post.. Appreciated.. I have a couple of comments.
- Do you mind suggesting an alternative then to the rather expensive Rockwool RW3 if you don't mind?. there seems to be loads and im worried to use just normal DIY rolls for lofts etc.

- The floating floor... Are you sure I shouldn't float the floor?.... From these forums I have always read how things should be decoupled... If I didn't have a floating floor that the inner walls are build off then the inner walls would be connected to the wood base which in turn is connected to the outer walls.. This isn't decoupled at all... you could then ask the question of having a room within a room at all?.. honest query there if you could help if much appreciate it...

- floating ceiling.. Well its not, but imagine the joists of a roof that are say 60cm apart from each other... the say I have lower joists that are running parallel to the main rood joists but slightly lower and in between the 60cm voids of the roof joists... these lower/floating joists keen the main inner room solid as they connect the inner walls together but still are decoupled from the outer shell.. hope that helps

- thanks re: the ventilation.. im looking at it now as a real priority in the room and not just as a "ah well, lets bung a fan in somewhere"... thank you.

- Yes caulking will be done

Hey there. Your first most important step is accomplished, by ordering the book. It changed my life.

Insulation- standard Unfaced fiberglass, typical of what you would see in any old wall cavity or attic. The pink or yellow stuff, that resembles cotton candy, but isn't nearly as enjoyable. I'm not sure if your in the US or not, so I'm not exactly sure how common it is in your area. That said around here, it's easy to acquire at home improvement stores, and always cheaper than Rockwool.

When you get into Rockwool and ridgid fiber glass, it's not often for the finished interior acoustic treatment, again unless code dictates otherwise. Behind the drywall, in cavities, standard insulation does and equal, or better job, often significantly cheaper.

I think Glenn knows a thing or two, (okay a lot) about the interior treatments, and proper application of materials, so I'm sure he won't steer ya wrong in that Dept. #keepitloose

A link to standard wall cavity insulation for illustration purposes:

http://http://www.acehardware.com/pr...a=pla_11342888

You've got the right idea on the ceiling joists, I know it as "independently framed" but that's semantic at this point. The book will show you exactly how to accomplish it, with detailed drawings.

Congrats on taking your ventilation seriously. I've seen some sweaty artists coming out of booths, and experienced some funky smells. Not the fun kind that makes ya giggle. Just the stank. You'll thank yourself the first day of extreme hot or cold.

Kudos on the caulking.

The floor- floating is always the last option. It doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, it just means you might not have to.

Could you detail how the existing floor is constructed, and if your on the ground floor, or upper level?

Ideally your on a concrete slab, and then there's nothing really you have to do, but here are some options with that if you have certain preferences, or requirements.

If you could outline the existing structure some more it'd be very helpful. The size, construction method/style, exiting electricity and existing Windows and doors.

Also what you expect from this room, like as far as isolation, whether your mixing, or just jamming, how 'pro' you need it, your budget, your budget, your musical style(s) and your monitoring setup.

Your gonna need to outline your gear too, when your specing out the electrical service.

There's a very good chance you'll not need two doors. A standard solid core door with added mass, and good durable, redundant seals, is often just what the doctor ordered.

At the risk of sounding too much like a fan... That's also in the book.

So hopefully this helped a little. I commend you for taking the time to investigate and ask questions. It'll pay dividends.

fl00die 13th June 2016 09:35 PM

Thanks for avice on insulation. Can i ask though why do rockwool say about its weight as 60 per m2 for the rw3 and normal insulation hardly touches this. It would be great if i could just use normal stuff as its going to cost me a fortune in rockwool!!

Thanks for the kudos on the staggered joist system, caulking and ventilation.

With regards to the floating floor. Ill try answer your questions.

This studio is going in the garden. And for various reasons im not able to get a concrete slab. Instead the buildingis going to float on 16 very strong metal spikes. Each can hold 750kg so thats 12tonne of weight in total. Ive calculated my studio will weigh max of around 5tonne fully laden with people and equipment. So thats why i am having it on a raised wooden frame/floor. Everyone seems to talk about decoupling so the main base which is resting on those 16spikes surely has to have no contact with the main floor?? Or inner room(room
Within room concept). Surely if its ok to use the main wooden base as the main floor then why even go for a room within a room in terms
Of outter wall, gap, inner wall as the whole structure is COUPLED through the floor. Arghhhhhhh!!!! Lol

fl00die 13th June 2016 09:36 PM

Oh and the outter dimensions are going to be 4.5m by 3.5m making an inner space of 3m x 4m.

fl00die 17th June 2016 09:54 AM

received the book and slowly reading through it.. Great stuff.. surprised how big it is to be fair!!

Anyway.... I am concerned and need some advice fairly quickly if that's ok... I have no choice but to have a main wooden base instead of concrete as I describe above... So using a room within a room system what do I do about the inner walls and floor?. there seems to be so much contradicing advice I just don't know the way to go. Someone I know has long lengths of 5mm thick neoprence rubber which I COULD put under all the joists in the floating floor and inner walls to detach them from the main wooden base structure but heard places where that's good and others where its bad... :(..

thanks guys
Dave

Micoholic 17th June 2016 11:45 AM

If you have to go floating floor, then same as the walls - mass/de-coupling method/mass. Just putting in the u-boats or neoprene with a couple of layers of wood will render the effort gone in to the walls useless.

fl00die 21st June 2016 10:45 AM

hi micoholic... I'm not so sure.. I don't believe it will make the room within a room useless. Far from it. I will see a dramatic difference compared to only had a single 10cm skin wall.. how do you propose I do it then? What you are saying is that there seems no way of effectively soundproofing if you have a wooden base to build a building on... I have seen many garden studios which have been built off wooden bases rather than concrete

if you could explain what you mean when you say Mass/de-coupling/mass for the floor then that would be great. An anti-gravity ray? :)

Micoholic 21st June 2016 08:51 PM

Both the original floor and the second floor built on top of it should be dense stuff. If they are not, they will resonate and transmit airborne and impact noise to the outside world. A thin floor even if decoupled with neoprene or u-boats will let sound pass through it. Like an empty old house, or an upstairs neighbour with laminate flooring and high heals. Drum skin versus concrete patio slab.

I'd guess (so ask an actual expert before trying this) you should reinforce your original shed floor before doing any other work. Add a layer of that concrete sheet stuff (can't remember the name, but it's like plasterboard but made from concrete). Make sure it's all sealed up nicely. Then use your decoupling method of choice (neoprene or u-boats) then start on the top layer sandwich with osb/concrete plasterboard stuff/osb/carpet or whatever. Obvs shouldn't touch the sides of the original structure or again, it would bridge the two structures and transmit vibration/sound. The internal walls would be built on the floating floor, and again, no contact with the external structure.
Unfortunately, this **** is complicated.

There's a bloke called Max Hodges who does this sort of thing professionally. Might be worth contacting him with your budget and ambitions. Might save a heck of a lot of guesswork and money in the long run. It would be such a shame to build something that doesn't do what you wanted it to.

Micoholic 21st June 2016 08:55 PM

Maxtech.Audio

fl00die 15th July 2016 03:20 PM

hi micoholic - thanks very much for your reply. Sorry I have been busy with my newborn and a poxy arcade machine build ive got stuck into.

I do appreciate yoru help, I have contacted maxtech so lets see what comes of it!!

Many thanks
David