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-   -   is my motu 828mkII broken!! (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-computers/1064663-my-motu-828mkii-broken.html)

louis1 30th January 2016 01:50 AM

is my motu 828mkII broken!!
 
Hi, can someone please tell me how to hook this thing up with logic X.

Ok I've had this for years and sound wise it a'int that bad, but trying to use it for summing with a very humble set-up in logic just to bus out 4 stereo pairs from the motu to my mixer…………AND Wait For IT…..just to humbly bring a stereo pair from the main outputs of my mixer back in to the motu 828mkII, I always get timing issues.

So for ages i just did what worked and after loads of trying this and trying that and speaking to a guy called Ben from motu i could only ever get things to sound anchored and in time when i stacked my outboard i/o on the master bus…

Is my motu not doing what it should or have i got a faulty one.. ? The people at motu seem to suggest its user error but when i ask them to help me set up for the above IMO a very humble set up…. they are unable to…

Just to be clear is all i want to do is have 4 stereo pairs out to my mixer and 1 stereo pair back in to use the EQ on the board plus a bit of outboard…

If i can get this to work then it will give me confidence to get one of their latest offerings like a 16 channel , but i feel that I'm either doing something very wrong the way i have it set up or the 828mkII is a piece of S***.

Cheers Louis.

Deleted User 30th January 2016 02:32 AM

Are you using the I/O plugin in Logic? This allows you to compensate for the delay

Muser 30th January 2016 02:48 AM

not sure if the OP is trying to hear the outputs while trying to also monitor the return.
which, depending on the monitoring scheme, is the only thing I can think which
could cause the effect of a timing delay.

I can't imagine the outputs would all be delayed different to each other.
you could be taking a round trip of the desk mix, back via the software,
monitoring again via the desk, then trying to monitor the return back
through the DAW.

so you could try making sure, that you don't have the returns to the DAW
in any kind of live monitor mode. whatever is going back from the desk
should be appearing on the headphone out on the desk. that should be
what the DAW will then record. then, assuming it records ok, you can
put your phones into the motu, or just solo that new recorded track.

louis1 30th January 2016 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shanabit (Post 11664730)
Are you using the I/O plugin in Logic? This allows you to compensate for the delay

Thanks but like i say even using the i/o plugin i still have time delays at least a quarter note. Unless i/o's are stacked on logics master outs. perfect timing and its great to bring hardware compressors and EQ;s in at a click of the mouse.

But this way is limited as it does not let me spread 4 stereo pairs over the desk!!

louis1 30th January 2016 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muser (Post 11664762)
not sure if the OP is trying to hear the outputs while trying to also monitor the return.
which, depending on the monitoring scheme, is the only thing I can think which
could cause the effect of a timing delay.

I can't imagine the outputs would all be delayed different to each other.
you could be taking a round trip of the desk mix, back via the software,
monitoring again via the desk, then trying to monitor the return back
through the DAW.

so you could try making sure, that you don't have the returns to the DAW
in any kind of live monitor mode. whatever is going back from the desk
should be appearing on the headphone out on the desk. that should be
what the DAW will then record. then, assuming it records ok, you can
put your phones into the motu, or just solo that new recorded track.

Well at least you have come up with something i had not tried so thanks, but still timing issues even through the analog mixer headphone outs...:facepalm:

goldi 30th January 2016 05:25 AM

there should be zero timing issue. send 8 to your mixer, return that via TRS to the front inputs and monitor only those. fact is you're monitoring the wrong stuff. set your inputs in "motu audio setup" to those mic pre's (but use TRS to bypass the pre's). or you can use any set of inputs really. the point is if your listening to a stereo return -- what's to delay? there shouldn't be any, it's just music.

rez 30th January 2016 09:03 AM

which daw are you using? in logic all you have to do is route your busses to the motus outputs (be aware that logic messes up the numbering a bit, because it counts the main outputs and the line outputs don´t start at 1-2) and set those pairs in the cuemix app or directly on the unit.
then route your signal to your mixer and back into the motu line inputs and you should be all set. for latency compensation it would be best to monitor the return signal from the motu cuemix (hence the name of the app and function).
sometimes it is a bit hard to understand the function of the cuemix app and how to set the output channels.
it should work, as i have done some live dub mixes using eight mono outputs and a mixing desk with the same 828mkII.

peace, rez

louis1 30th January 2016 01:50 PM

Well thanks for all your suggestions guy's, i will try these out later.

But talk about a big grey area, I would never imagined it would be this difficult. its almost like a dark art.

I was trying to sort this out into the early hours last night and it isn't the first time I've tackled it.

I even striped a track I'm working on right back getting rid of all the sub group and busses just to simplify it.

And another thing I noticed was when you talk to someone about it ,like I was on the phone for a good hour yesterday trying to explain it to one of the guys at music track motu's UK distributor, we both became very confused especially when he said he only uses digital performer.

Cheers Louis

omegaomega 30th January 2016 03:07 PM

Your 828 is fine. i think you haven't fully grasped how the whole thing of going to outboard and back works in Logic.

If you want to use your mixer and outboard for summing, you dont need anything. Just record the stereo signal coming back, and that s your final mixdown. You dont need to worry about latency etc.

If you want to record the externally eqed/compressed channels and still being able to use them WITH the ITB mix, you need to use the I/O plugin.

Unfortunately it is a pain in the ass.
Read this
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/appl...-outboard.html

Muser 30th January 2016 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louis1 (Post 11664824)
Well at least you have come up with something i had not tried so thanks, but still timing issues even through the analog mixer headphone outs...:facepalm:

the only thing I think that could be is, your DAW is not setup to compensate
for processing delays through any plugins.
plugin delay compensation (or) PDC

the only other thing I could think is, something is problematic with the driver

louis1 30th January 2016 06:51 PM

Thanks for all your help guys, but everyone assumes that I want to record, and eventually I will but for the moment I just want to sum 4 stereo pairs through my desk with everything solid in sync.

Plus I thought logic delay compensation just worked in the back round, obviously after pinging the io plug.

To think I've had to work with this thing totally cramping my work flo for ages and not wanting to ask on here as I thought it was a dumb ass question..., this seems to be a mine field in its self .

cheers Louis

Muser 30th January 2016 07:10 PM


goldi 30th January 2016 10:02 PM

Let me break this down further: there is no latency to even be considered. there is nothing to delay. please forget about delay compensation. when you send audio out analog, it's all in sync and running the same speed. it all hits your 2 buss at the same time. it then all hits your 2 A/D of your choice at the same time. and THIS is what you monitor. there is absolutely nothing to delay, nothing to screw up here. if you're "getting a delay", you must be listening to 2 different (stereo) sources or doing some other thing wrong.

delay compensation is used for one track going thru something while the others aren't. again, that is not happening here. everything is going out your MOTU. so let's focus on you just monitoring the correct stuff. monitor those 2 A/D inputs! (okay so you don't wanna record so ignore this:) after you print the track, you should then be using 2 dedicated outputs that bypass your analog setup and hit directly to your speakers.

there are certain disclaimers, like you can get tiny latency problems when sending THE SAME (multed) audio out 2 different converters. but that's not happening here, and it would create phase / comb filtering and not delay. so ignore this sentence and worry about which tracks you're monitoring. make sure it's only 2 (stereo pair). so if you hear a delay, know that it's more than the stereo pair you're hearing.

louis1 31st January 2016 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muser (Post 11666341)

Hi Muser, i just checked and PDC is on so no difference, i still have out of time tracks.

To me theres got to be something very wrong here as just to simplify this set up I've bussed my drums together and sent them out as a stereo pair to my mixer…Cool.

I then buss out my bass as another stereo pair to the next channels on my mixer!!…Not Cool…as the bass and drums are at least a quarter note or worse out of sync.

Plus just to simplify it further I've got my signal just coming out the headphone jack of the mixer there buy eliminating the round trip back to my converter.

So this shows that my motu 828mkii can't even send tracks out in time let alone retrieve them in time as I've just about tried every which way i can..

This thing should come with a government health warning as its starting to reek havoc on my cranium.!!

I just hope someone would slap me in the face and say..You idiot you do it like this!!…Also the manual is not clear and no one at motu seem to be able to shed any light on it either.

Is there anything else that I've missed.

Louis.

Muser 31st January 2016 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louis1 (Post 11668972)
Hi Muser, i just checked and PDC is on so no difference, i still have out of time tracks.

To me theres got to be something very wrong here as just to simplify this set up I've bussed my drums together and sent them out as a stereo pair to my mixer…Cool.

I then buss out my bass as another stereo pair to the next channels on my mixer!!…Not Cool…as the bass and drums are at least a quarter note or worse out of sync.

Plus just to simplify it further I've got my signal just coming out the headphone jack of the mixer there buy eliminating the round trip back to my converter.

So this shows that my motu 828mkii can't even send tracks out in time let alone retrieve them in time as I've just about tried every which way i can..

This thing should come with a government health warning as its starting to reek havoc on my cranium.!!

I just hope someone would slap me in the face and say..You idiot you do it like this!!…Also the manual is not clear and no one motu seem to be able to shed any light on it either.

Is there anything else that I've missed.

Louis.

put a kick drum on the beat of 2 or 3 bars
copy that to another 3 tracks panned in the middle
have those play out the different outputs
then record it in some form. then upload it here

really we need to know what you're hearing

louis1 1st February 2016 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muser (Post 11668986)
put a kick drum on the beat of 2 or 3 bars
copy that to another 3 tracks panned in the middle
have those play out the different outputs
then record it in some form. then upload it here

really we need to know what you're hearing

Thanks for trying to help with this but I don't see how trying to record it some how is going to help matters as no disrespect, but most people know what out of sync sounds like out by a quarter note especially when it's your own track...

Plus if it doesn't sound right then why would I want to record it.

Reading through, a lot of advice on here has been to record, but seriously are you ment to cross our fingers and hope that because ...This track don't sound in sync now!!. All is not lost because we can record!!!.

If it is, then no wonder I didn't get it! !!.
Louis.

louis1 1st February 2016 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldi (Post 11666761)
Let me break this down further: there is no latency to even be considered. there is nothing to delay. please forget about delay compensation. when you send audio out analog, it's all in sync and running the same speed. it all hits your 2 buss at the same time. it then all hits your 2 A/D of your choice at the same time. and THIS is what you monitor. there is absolutely nothing to delay, nothing to screw up here. if you're "getting a delay", you must be listening to 2 different (stereo) sources or doing some other thing wrong.

delay compensation is used for one track going thru something while the others aren't. again, that is not happening here. everything is going out your MOTU. so let's focus on you just monitoring the correct stuff. monitor those 2 A/D inputs! (okay so you don't wanna record so ignore this:) after you print the track, you should then be using 2 dedicated outputs that bypass your analog setup and hit directly to your speakers.

there are certain disclaimers, like you can get tiny latency problems when sending THE SAME (multed) audio out 2 different converters. but that's not happening here, and it would create phase / comb filtering and not delay. so ignore this sentence and worry about which tracks you're monitoring. make sure it's only 2 (stereo pair). so if you hear a delay, know that it's more than the stereo pair you're hearing.

WTf,,

Monotremata 1st February 2016 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louis1 (Post 11669631)
WTf,,

Logic's plug-in delay compensation is for compensating for processing when youre running something through some cpu heavy plugins..

It has absolutely nothing to do with any delay between audio you are recording and monitoring while playing back. That job falls on CueMix, and the buffer/sample adjustments in Logic's settings for your 828. Or its simply the way you are monitoring your signals.

Deleted User 1st February 2016 02:26 AM

Are you using any plugins on the tracks? Use sends to Aux tracks and set the aux output to the physical outs. Set the track outputs to the mains.

Monotremata 1st February 2016 02:58 AM

I wouldnt recommend sends because then he will still be mixing the original tracks with the incoming audio.. If hes using sends to feed the busses this could be why its getting delayed.. You need to route the tracks output (the little box at the bottom right above the fader) either directly to one of the stereo outs you want, or to an aux which you would then route to the stereo pair you want to use. When I bus my drums, which are usually tracks 1-8, the Output of all 8 of these is set to an Aux. From there you would set the Aux's output to say Output 3-4 (or whichever pair youre using).. That way the ONLY audio you are going to hear from Logic itself is if you have those two outputs connected to monitors. So setup your 4 stereo auxes, bus the tracks to whatever auxes you want using their individual Outputs, then send each Aux's output to its respective stereo output pair, which then goes to the mixer. The Mixer outputs come into a pair of inputs on the MOTU, and you should be able to hear everything in time with no delay through CueMix itself. If you want to hear the actual final product coming out of Logic, then youre going to have to enable Logic's internal monitoring, and mute CueMix in the CueMix software.

timemist 1st February 2016 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louis1 (Post 11664664)
Hi, can someone please tell me how to hook this thing up with logic X.

Ok I've had this for years and sound wise it a'int that bad, but trying to use it for summing with a very humble set-up in logic just to bus out 4 stereo pairs from the motu to my mixer…………AND Wait For IT…..just to humbly bring a stereo pair from the main outputs of my mixer back in to the motu 828mkII, I always get timing issues.

So for ages i just did what worked and after loads of trying this and trying that and speaking to a guy called Ben from motu i could only ever get things to sound anchored and in time when i stacked my outboard i/o on the master bus…

Is my motu not doing what it should or have i got a faulty one.. ? The people at motu seem to suggest its user error but when i ask them to help me set up for the above IMO a very humble set up…. they are unable to…

Just to be clear is all i want to do is have 4 stereo pairs out to my mixer and 1 stereo pair back in to use the EQ on the board plus a bit of outboard…

If i can get this to work then it will give me confidence to get one of their latest offerings like a 16 channel , but i feel that I'm either doing something very wrong the way i have it set up or the 828mkII is a piece of S***.

Cheers Louis.

Are you running the CueMix application, and if so, how do you have it set up?

goldi 1st February 2016 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louis1 (Post 11669631)
WTf,,

nice comprehension of my post -- good luck hunting the ghost in the machine..

louis1 1st February 2016 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monotremata (Post 11669708)
I wouldnt recommend sends because then he will still be mixing the original tracks with the incoming audio.. If hes using sends to feed the busses this could be why its getting delayed.. You need to route the tracks output (the little box at the bottom right above the fader) either directly to one of the stereo outs you want, or to an aux which you would then route to the stereo pair you want to use. When I bus my drums, which are usually tracks 1-8, the Output of all 8 of these is set to an Aux. From there you would set the Aux's output to say Output 3-4 (or whichever pair youre using).. That way the ONLY audio you are going to hear from Logic itself is if you have those two outputs connected to monitors. So setup your 4 stereo auxes, bus the tracks to whatever auxes you want using their individual Outputs, then send each Aux's output to its respective stereo output pair, which then goes to the mixer. The Mixer outputs come into a pair of inputs on the MOTU, and you should be able to hear everything in time with no delay through CueMix itself. If you want to hear the actual final product coming out of Logic, then youre going to have to enable Logic's internal monitoring, and mute CueMix in the CueMix software.

Thanks for this, everything you describe is exactly how I have it set up just like you I to have about 8 drums all bussed to an aux and from that aux to the motu outputs .it's when i try to buss out my bass it is out of time with the drums.

But I have not been using cue mix as a guy called Ben from motu said to make sure everything is muted in there, so I need to have a look in cue mix.

Cheers Louis

Billy Budd 1st February 2016 02:52 PM

As Muser says above, sounds to me like you are monitoring the return from the desk through Logic, and with the Buffer Size set relatively high e.g. 1024 - that would give an audible delay of about half a second between what's going out to the desk and what you hear coming back through Logic.

You can easily test if that is the case by reducing the Buffer Size; if you set it to 128 there will still be some delay but it will be much smaller.

To stop it completely, turn off Input Monitoring in Logic and set up the monitoring in Cuemix instead.

HTH

Muser 1st February 2016 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louis1 (Post 11669601)
Thanks for trying to help with this but I don't see how trying to record it some how is going to help matters as no disrespect, but most people know what out of sync sounds like out by a quarter note especially when it's your own track...

Plus if it doesn't sound right then why would I want to record it.

Reading through, a lot of advice on here has been to record, but seriously are you ment to cross our fingers and hope that because ...This track don't sound in sync now!!. All is not lost because we can record!!!.

If it is, then no wonder I didn't get it! !!.
Louis.

sure I know what out of sync sounds like. what I want to know, is if each output
is out of sync with the other outputs. that I would assume would then more likely be
a driver issue.

louis1 3rd February 2016 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by omegaomega (Post 11665904)
Your 828 is fine. i think you haven't fully grasped how the whole thing of going to outboard and back works in Logic.

If you want to use your mixer and outboard for summing, you dont need anything. Just record the stereo signal coming back, and that s your final mixdown. You dont need to worry about latency etc.

If you want to record the externally eqed/compressed channels and still being able to use them WITH the ITB mix, you need to use the I/O plugin.

Unfortunately it is a pain in the ass.
Read this
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/appl...-outboard.html

Hi, But i don't want to record, Is all i want to do is just sum certain tracks through my mixer and have it all play in time....have you ever tried this yourself.

Cheers Louis

louis1 3rd February 2016 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timemist (Post 11669746)
Are you running the CueMix application, and if so, how do you have it set up?

Well i hadn't tried it yet but a few guys on here say to use it but if i use it does that mean i have to turn logics internal monitoring off in order to use cue mix. If this is the case then how will logic make things in sync.

At the moment all these timing out of sync issues I'm having is with everything muted in cue mix from the advice from a guy called Ben from motu, but I'm wondering if he knows as he was not able to help me.

Cheers Louis.

louis1 3rd February 2016 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billy Budd (Post 11670454)
As Muser says above, sounds to me like you are monitoring the return from the desk through Logic, and with the Buffer Size set relatively high e.g. 1024 - that would give an audible delay of about half a second between what's going out to the desk and what you hear coming back through Logic.

You can easily test if that is the case by reducing the Buffer Size; if you set it to 128 there will still be some delay but it will be much smaller.

To stop it completely, turn off Input Monitoring in Logic and set up the monitoring in Cuemix instead.

HTH

Hi, if i turn off logics input monitoring and use cue mix do i leave it like this all the time if all i want to do is sum through my mixer..? plus once i have my mix how i want it can i then bounce it like this in cue mix or do i have to turn input monitoring back on.. already confusing myself :face palm:

Louis.

timemist 3rd February 2016 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louis1 (Post 11674826)
Well i hadn't tried it yet but a few guys on here say to use it but if i use it does that mean i have to turn logics internal monitoring off in order to use cue mix. If this is the case then how will logic make things in sync.

At the moment all these timing out of sync issues I'm having is with everything muted in cue mix from the advice from a guy called Ben from motu, but I'm wondering if he knows as he was not able to help me.

CueMix allows you to create and control different setups for your 828mkII and it can help or hinder latency. I doubt that muting everything in CueMix it is the right answer, although without seeing your settings it's a bit difficult to give you advice on what might be the possible issue.

As for Logic, you'll want to make sure Low Latency Mode is enabled in the Toolbar, especially if you are monitoring plugins.

goldi 3rd February 2016 02:19 AM

OMG this thread -- Louis louis louis -- turn off your logic monitoring. I can't imagine anything worse than sticking pins in your eyes. Do all your monitoring from CUEMIX -- re-read the above posts and everywhere you see "monitor", replace it with "monitor in CUEMIX". Use logic to do what it does -- record and playback. don't use it for monitoring. This is the source of all your problems. Find your summed A/D inputs in CUEMIX, turn those up. make sure they're also selected in MOTU setup as your "default stereo inputs". i can't believe i'm typing this again, re-read my posts above and stop bugging MOTU cause you didn't read the manual. reminds me of a famous line from this thread .. WTF