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Surround Upmixing Plugins?
Old 28th October 2015 | Show parent
  #151
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisIsSka View Post

I'd also like to hear suggestions on where to insert the upmixing plug in in a session. I'm thinking you strap it across a 5.1 music bus or live track, but seems a bit cumbersome to me that way.
I strap it across the music bus, set it and forget it.

Last edited by Henchman; 28th October 2015 at 01:44 AM..
Old 28th October 2015
  #152
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Leverson's Avatar
Generally I'll have an Upmix A and an Upmix B and I'll send my stereo music tracks to those auxes. That gives me automation control and flexibility over which tracks get sent to it. I tend to automate the upmix plugins quite a bit depending on the source cues. I suppose these days my computer is powerful enough to put an upmixer on each music track itself for a lot of my projects, but the way I've been doing it works so I haven't changed it. The upmix auxes feed the main 5.1 music bus.

The delay in Penteo never bothered me, nor did the delay for Halo (which is about half that of the Penteo). The sound of the Waves upmixer always bothered me though, and the downmixes weren't identical to the original like the other two.
Old 28th October 2015
  #153
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Henchman's Avatar
The reason I don't mess with the settings, is because I don't want any QC rejection due to not having an exact folddown.
Old 28th October 2015
  #154
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Leverson's Avatar
That's the great thing about the Penteo, no matter what you do to the settings the mixdown is always exactly the same ITU compliant. It's the main reason I purchased it originally.

Halo should also do this in 'exact' mode, and from my trial with it it certainly seemed to be so. But I haven't used it outside of my trial period so I can't say in any real-world tests, but I'd assume it to be the case as well.

So I feel safe manipulating the surround upmix to be exactly what I want it to be without fear of it changing the original stereo sound (or failing QC).
Old 28th October 2015 | Show parent
  #155
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Fredo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfyou View Post
I'd be interested if anyone using Nuendo has tried Halo.

There were some issues with the very first version, but these have been solved. Runs fine here. No issues.

Fredo
Old 28th October 2015 | Show parent
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfyou View Post
No and the response from Nugen was not very confidence-inspiring. They indicated it was a general problem with the VST version of the plugin. I'd be interested if anyone using Nuendo has tried Halo.

Because of that I can't buy it. Which is a shame because I like it but I need both AAX and VST compatibility.

For VST, choices seem to be Waves UM226, Iosono Anymix, and Penteo 5. The Waves is just barely acceptable. You can get good results from the other two but they both have such a big delay that I end up running all the cues through them and printing them.

Auro-2d sounds great but I'm not sure if they ever actually released the VST version. I should check on that...
Hi smurfyou / ThisIsSka

As Fredo says, there was an issue with the initial release of Halo in VST3, however this has now been fixed and is available in the latest release.

We are working on a fix for some reported issues in VST2.

If anyone is testing in the Fairlight VST environment and would be willing to give us some feedback, please don't hesitate to send me a PM or email [email protected]

Jon

NUGEN Audio
Old 28th October 2015 | Show parent
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [NuGenAudio] View Post
Hi smurfyou / ThisIsSka

As Fredo says, there was an issue with the initial release of Halo in VST3, however this has now been fixed and is available in the latest release.

We are working on a fix for some reported issues in VST2.

If anyone is testing in the Fairlight VST environment and would be willing to give us some feedback, please don't hesitate to send me a PM or email [email protected]

Jon

NUGEN Audio
PM sent.

As far as usage, when I'm on Pro Tools I have it on an Aux so I can send whatever cues need the upmix. Then from there to the music stem. Fairlight's bussing works differently so I find it easier just to print. Although with Halo's lower latency I might not need to.
Old 28th October 2015
  #158
As someone who has every upmix plugin except Penteo, if you look at the history of these plugs developers tend to abandon development after a short while. I think Nugen Halo has the best shot at becoming the standard. Pento is a one trick pony in this area. Nugen appears to be the only developer with a diverse base of plugins which I would hope allow them to continue development of Halo if it proves not to be the profit center they hope for.

Nugen Halo, Auro, DTS, and Soundfield are the best of the bunch to my ears, each with their own flavors. DTS and Soundfield are DOA as they have not made it to AAX land...yet?
Old 19th November 2015
  #159
We use Penteo 7 with very good results as Audio Suite.
We also use it in music delivered to us in stereo, and to expand stereo interior car recordings to 5.1.
Never ever had any QC phase rejection.
Old 20th November 2015 | Show parent
  #160
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minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Luis Diaz View Post
We use Penteo 7 with very good results as Audio Suite.
I am curious why you use it as an Audio Suite rather than a realtime plugin.
Old 20th November 2015 | Show parent
  #161
Quote:
Originally Posted by minister View Post
I am curious why you use it as an Audio Suite rather than a realtime plugin.
Because we need to go quick in mixing room. That room is expensive.
If you have options you need to explore them.
Explore them is time. Time is money.

We know well the acoustic translation between our editing rooms and our mixing room.
If it sound good in the editing room ... enough.

Also, in the editing room we have Spanner. Eventually, we can change a bit later there, in the mixing room. But, normally, it is not necessary.

Last edited by Jose Luis Diaz; 20th November 2015 at 02:47 AM..
Old 20th November 2015 | Show parent
  #162
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minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jose Luis Diaz View Post
Because we need to go quick in mixing room. That room is expensive.
If you have options you need to explore them.
Explore them is time. Time is money.
Understood. Make sense. Thanks.

I keep it realtime because I may decide later to toe something in, reduce the amount of "upmix" for more pop and rock oriented tracks and when I notice that the surrounds of the music are interfering with the FX, or vice versa.

Last edited by minister; 20th November 2015 at 03:18 AM..
Old 20th November 2015 | Show parent
  #163
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Paul NuGenAudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon [NuGenAudio] View Post
We are working on a fix for some reported issues in VST2.

If anyone is testing in the Fairlight VST environment and would be willing to give us some feedback, please don't hesitate to send me a PM or email [email protected]
Quick update on this... we have now released an updated build of NUGEN Halo Upmix with the VST2 support fixed, and Will has very kindly confirmed that it is working for him on a Fairlight console. Thanks Will
Old 21st November 2015
  #164
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I'd like to say I am impressed with Nugen's response and efficiency getting the VST2 version patched up. I initially had a problem getting a reply but it turns out during that time the Support web form was broken.... As soon as I sent an email about it I had a reply.

I can say IMO this is the best VST upmixer by far. It sounds great and it is efficient enough to run real time, multiple instances if you need. (I like it in Pro Tools as well but I covered that earlier)
Old 16th December 2015 | Show parent
  #165
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upmix or what?

I agree with Gusss that it is better not to upmix when you can have a surround mix and Surround mixing is properly not that hard and is a complete joy and can really create a sense of immersion..FOR YOU! But: in real life as a re- recording mixer you have to deal with what you get and this very often is: a stereo mix- and then you need the best upmixer you can get which for me is:Penteo!
Mostly because of the sound and the ease of use.Very often i dont have the time to try around so much - so i need a plugin which i can rely on and which is fast and easy to use. Penteo was a no brainer for me from the 1st day on- downmix always sounded like the source material no matter what i did with it and thats is what i love about it. Get a demo of each upmixer you are considering to buy and compare them! I m pretty shure you will end up with Penteo when you listen to a piece of music with lots a reverb and see how Penteo and how the other plugins handle it- same with percussive sounds. But its totally program dependend so try quite a few different songs- there might be a song where another upmixer sounds better to you but at the end Penteo will win! At least for me it was like this...
Old 17th December 2015
  #166
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Farhoof's Avatar
 

Penteo has been upgraded to version 7.4.3. Just tried it, compared to Halo the surrounds are (sometimes much) better defined, it retains more stereo imaging in 5.1, making it my new go-to upmix plugin
(Others from the past are TC Unwrap, Waves, Anymix and Auro)
Old 17th December 2015 | Show parent
  #167
Gear Nut
 

Another great feature of Penteo Pro is that it doesn't add any reverb / ambience of its own, just does what it's supposed to do (upmixes). That's not the situation of some of the other upmixers.
Old 19th December 2015
  #168
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Having done many a mix with discrete stems for 5.1 mixing (music, post-production tv&film), when faced with a 5.1 project but supplied with 2.0 music mixes, Penteo 5 saves my life. Keeping focus towards the front is always a challenge but this plug offers enough precision controls to carry that weight. Folding back down to stereo while in the process is the trick to get there for me. AB-BA all the while saves it for me. (sic - no band reference here). I have demo'ed the 'other' options, and I keep coming back to Penteo. Friendly support included. Always a plus in this business.
Old 19th December 2015 | Show parent
  #169
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Hey I'd love to hear from someone who is expert with the UM226...

I'm going to do some tests with it next week (while we're quiet) but does anyone know if all the different modes (1-8) all offer exact fold down back to stereo?

And then, does messing with the various Profile and Width knobs negatively affect the fold down back to stereo or are they just different ways of doing it?

The manual isn't clear on the subject.

All the 8 modes, by default, put quite a lot of music info in the Centre Channel. I don't think I want too much of that because that's where my dialogue goes. Am I being naive? In the stereo mix, music and dialogue are on top of each other. Perhaps I'd end up mixing music too loud when monitoring in 5.1 and regretting it when listening to the stereo mix?

Hope that makes sense?

Matt : )
Old 19th December 2015
  #170
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I did a lot of test with the um226. It's pretty bad. Downmixs horrible and is very phasey. I wouldn't toich it with a 10 foot fader.
Old 19th December 2015
  #171
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Leverson's Avatar
UM226 does not have anything near an exact downmix setting. All of the modes will change the way the original source files sound. I used it on a couple of projects prior to upgrading to Penteo and I disliked the downmixes so much I ended up making separate stereo mixes with the plugin disabled rather than downmixing the 5.1. The only thing the 226 has going for it is it's very cheap entry level price.
Old 20th December 2015
  #172
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I still can't understand how all you folks using Penteo in real-time deal with the nearly 5 frame delay on real time control surface automation.

i agree it's great sounding, and i use it in audio suite on cues that need special treatment, but its definitely not worth the fader lag IMHO to warrant strapping on the music bus.
Old 20th December 2015
  #173
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Henchman's Avatar
UM226 is just downright dreadfull. It adds unwanred, unneeded coloring of the original sound.
Old 20th December 2015 | Show parent
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auralist View Post
I still can't understand how all you folks using Penteo in real-time deal with the nearly 5 frame delay on real time control surface automation.

i agree it's great sounding, and i use it in audio suite on cues that need special treatment, but its definitely not worth the fader lag IMHO to warrant strapping on the music bus.
You get used to it after 5 min. Yeah, it's a lot of delay and harder to work the faders, which I do a crap ton of. The sound is totally worth it to me.
Old 24th December 2015 | Show parent
  #175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
UM226 is just downright dreadfull. It adds unwanred, unneeded coloring of the original sound.
You are too kind. Its a steaming pile of...
Old 24th December 2015 | Show parent
  #176
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by piratepost View Post
You are too kind. Its a steaming pile of...
I was trying to not live up to my reputation.
You know, Christmas and all.
Old 9th September 2017
  #177
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I have been using Auro 2D in 5.1 for a few projects where I don't have time nor budget to mix in true 5.1, movies, tv series, docs etc and yes although it does add something, it translates quite well back in stereo, and the surround generated channels sound pretty darn good compared to others I've tried. Now I need a 7.1 solution and I tried Penteo which seems to have a great reputation... it sounded thin and not quite usable IMHO. A-B-ing the Penteo 5.1 to Auro 2D was quite different! Perhaps I'm doing something wrong and only tried it on one track (that sounded awesome on an Auro 2D) but I'm certainly not convinced with it. I'm going to try the Nugen HALO as it also seems to please many ears here.
Old 10th September 2017 | Show parent
  #178
Quote:
Originally Posted by x-ray View Post
I have been using Auro 2D in 5.1 for a few projects where I don't have time nor budget to mix in true 5.1, movies, tv series, docs etc and yes although it does add something, it translates quite well back in stereo, and the surround generated channels sound pretty darn good compared to others I've tried. Now I need a 7.1 solution and I tried Penteo which seems to have a great reputation... it sounded thin and not quite usable IMHO. A-B-ing the Penteo 5.1 to Auro 2D was quite different! Perhaps I'm doing something wrong and only tried it on one track (that sounded awesome on an Auro 2D) but I'm certainly not convinced with it. I'm going to try the Nugen HALO as it also seems to please many ears here.
Any up-mixing is a compromise. It is less compromise for upmixing music which these plugins are aimed to. When I'm asked to upmix any stereo mix, this is the first thing I say to production. And this is 0.1% of my regular work.
So in my situation I don't care how these plugins upmix the whole mixes. For me it's a tool to upmix music only and very rare BG's and SFX.
Old 10th September 2017 | Show parent
  #179
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoorevich View Post
Any up-mixing is a compromise. It is less compromise for upmixing music which these plugins are aimed to. When I'm asked to upmix any stereo mix, this is the first thing I say to production. And this is 0.1% of my regular work.
So in my situation I don't care how these plugins upmix the whole mixes. For me it's a tool to upmix music only and very rare BG's and SFX.
We have clients who ask us to upmix stereo mixes of movies all the time, as that's all they have.
No complaints so far.
Old 24th September 2017 | Show parent
  #180
Gear Head
 

Hi. Apologies for being a complete novice with all things surround sound. This question comes from a post I made in the Behringer DeepMind 12 thread.

Given the complex nature of the DM12 mod matrix with excellent effects, I was thinking that to hear those patches in true surround sound (I also thought how amazing it would be to have a VR headset too for the visuals). However the synth doesn't do surround sound and so I've been Googling alternatives.

I came across Penteo this morning which given reviews and feedback sounds like the next best thing.

So can Penteo be used real time with a hardware synth? And would this achieve good results for pads / ambient music?

Thanks.
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