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Surround Upmixing Plugins?
Old 5th September 2015
  #121
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apologize in advanced for the newbie question: why the use of upmix plugins? I've always just manually pan the stereo music to the sides and add a bit of verb to the surrounds to manually create an "upmix", and I've never had any issues with QC (mainly indie features), is my approach not correct? is this simply a case of preference or is there a technical reason why upmix plugin needs to be used?
Old 5th September 2015 | Show parent
  #122
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingo90 View Post
apologize in advanced for the newbie question: why the use of upmix plugins? I've always just manually pan the stereo music to the sides and add a bit of verb to the surrounds to manually create an "upmix", and I've never had any issues with QC (mainly indie features), is my approach not correct? is this simply a case of preference or is there a technical reason why upmix plugin needs to be used?
In surround mix the approach is "if it sounds good it sounds good". The biggest problem with the Up-Mix algorithm is how it folds down to stereo and whether its identical to the original Music stereo mix and has no phasing issues. In your case you most probably will NOT have the identical down mix output and the reverbs you add to the rears will potentially affect the phase coherence in the LTRT version of your mix.
But then again if you are very careful you may be doing just well.
The other story is an annoying dealing with the QC.

Last edited by mgoorevich; 5th September 2015 at 08:59 PM..
Old 5th September 2015 | Show parent
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoorevich View Post
In surround mix the approach is "if it sounds good it sounds good". The biggest problem with the Up-Mix algorithm is how it folds down to stereo and whether its identical to the original Music stereo mix and has now phasing issues. In your case you most probably will NOT have the identical down mix output and the reverbs you add to the rears will potentially cause the phase coherence in the LTRT version of your mix.
But then again if you are very careful you may be do just well.
The other thing is an annoying QC request'd dealing.
There's also the issue of putting something meaningful in the center channel, particularly with songs.
Old 5th September 2015 | Show parent
  #124
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dingo90 View Post
apologize in advanced for the newbie question: why the use of upmix plugins? I've always just manually pan the stereo music to the sides and add a bit of verb to the surrounds to manually create an "upmix", and I've never had any issues with QC (mainly indie features), is my approach not correct? is this simply a case of preference or is there a technical reason why upmix plugin needs to be used?
It's a bit of everything.
As has already been stated, LTRT compatability is a big thing, as is having something in the center, especially when it belongs there.
It's also preference.
Personally, I don't like adding reverb unless I feel it's needed. And panning the music slightly backwards, has never really done it for me.
Good unwrap plugins wont alter the original source, but will create a nice, enveloping soundscape, that will fold down without phase isssues.
Old 6th September 2015 | Show parent
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoorevich View Post
There still are some minor glitches on specific source material, but I am confident that folks at Nugen will solve it very soon.
Out of curiosity what sort of material causes problems? Will be good to keep an eye out for it.

Loved Halo during the beta and the Nugen guys are so generous to all beta testers.

Tried Penteo and sort of liked it, but they wouldn't give me a demo of Penteo 7, plus I hated the interface and how little control it gave.

Halo answered that and more.
Old 6th September 2015 | Show parent
  #126
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_lowe View Post
Out of curiosity what sort of material causes problems? Will be good to keep an eye out for it.

Loved Halo during the beta and the Nugen guys are so generous to all beta testers.

Tried Penteo and sort of liked it, but they wouldn't give me a demo of Penteo 7, plus I hated the interface and how little control it gave.

Halo answered that and more.
]
I'd you have a lot of low-end information, make sure Diffusion is set to 100%
Old 7th September 2015 | Show parent
  #127
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_lowe View Post
Out of curiosity what sort of material causes problems? Will be good to keep an eye out for it.

Loved Halo during the beta and the Nugen guys are so generous to all beta testers.

Tried Penteo and sort of liked it, but they wouldn't give me a demo of Penteo 7, plus I hated the interface and how little control it gave.

Halo answered that and more.
As stated above. You may have residual digital artefacts when playing back the material with excessive low end content. It only happens with a fast playback attempts but doesn't affect a normal re-recording pass.
Nugen is aware of it and working on it.

Last edited by mgoorevich; 7th September 2015 at 07:12 AM..
Old 7th September 2015 | Show parent
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgoorevich View Post
As stated above. You may have residual digital artefacts when playing back the material with excessive low end content. It only happens with a fast playback attempts but doesn't affect a normal re-recording pass.
Nugen is aware of it and working on it.
Thanks for the info guys, good to know.
Old 7th September 2015 | Show parent
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_lowe View Post
Out of curiosity what sort of material causes problems? Will be good to keep an eye out for it.

Loved Halo during the beta and the Nugen guys are so generous to all beta testers.

Tried Penteo and sort of liked it, but they wouldn't give me a demo of Penteo 7, plus I hated the interface and how little control it gave.

Halo answered that and more.
I just tried halo. Sounds really good. Penteo sounds better. Penteo has a bigger delay tho.
Old 7th September 2015
  #130
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Henchman's Avatar
The one main control that is really easily accessible right away on the Halo, is the divergence. If you do want to clear out the center speaker for a scene where the music is clouding the dialog, it takes a couple of seconds to do so.
Old 7th September 2015 | Show parent
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
The one main control that is really easily accessible right away on the Halo, is the divergence. If you do want to clear out the center speaker for a scene where the music is clouding the dialog, it takes a couple of seconds to do so.
Yeah that's nice. I am seeing some phase funkyness tho. Not too bad but I am wondering if I can pass QC with it. I might have to submit a test to see if it's usable.
Old 7th September 2015 | Show parent
  #132
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncross View Post
Yeah that's nice. I am seeing some phase funkyness tho. Not too bad but I am wondering if I can pass QC with it. I might have to submit a test to see if it's usable.
Are you using it in "exact"mode?
Old 8th September 2015 | Show parent
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
Are you using it in "exact"mode?
Yes. Most cues are great. It's just few sources with phase issues that really get funky with halo. Penteo keeps a solid phase relationship in all cases.
Old 8th September 2015 | Show parent
  #134
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Farhoof's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncross View Post
Yes. Most cues are great. It's just few sources with phase issues that really get funky with halo. Penteo keeps a solid phase relationship in all cases.
How does Penteo compare in these cases when set to low latency mode?
Old 8th September 2015 | Show parent
  #135
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Paul NuGenAudio's Avatar
 

Hi.

Someone just pointed out this thread to me, and the mentions of Halo. Thanks very much for the positive comments.

If you do find anything not right, or have any suggestions, please send them over to me at [email protected]

Thanks

Last edited by Paul NuGenAudio; 8th September 2015 at 12:21 PM.. Reason: forgot to show signature
Old 8th September 2015 | Show parent
  #136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul NuGenAudio View Post
Hi.

Someone just pointed out this thread to me, and the mentions of Halo. Thanks very much for the positive comments.

If you do find anything not right, or have any suggestions, please send them over to me at [email protected]

Thanks
I've been looking for a viable up mixer for a long time. I've spent way too much money on dead end solutions starting with a hardware box from a company is no longer around. I own every upmix plugin made for ProTools except Penteo.
Nugen is a safe bet. They have a wide range of incredible products. NuGen is very receptive to input from their users. I expect Halo to become the standard. I can't say enough about the positive experiences I've had with the folks from NuGen and their incredible products.
Old 8th September 2015 | Show parent
  #137
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Paul NuGenAudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by piratepost View Post
Nugen is a safe bet. They have a wide range of incredible products. NuGen is very receptive to input from their users. I expect Halo to become the standard. I can't say enough about the positive experiences I've had with the folks from NuGen and their incredible products.
Thanks Pete - really appreciate the support!
Old 8th September 2015
  #138
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HI Paul, can I send you some cues where halo exaggerates phase issues?
Old 8th September 2015 | Show parent
  #139
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncross View Post
HI Paul, can I send you some cues where halo exaggerates phase issues?
Are you sure it's the cues themsleves that aren't the problem. Would they make it through QC in stereo?
Old 8th September 2015 | Show parent
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
Are you sure it's the cues themsleves that aren't the problem. Would they make it through QC in stereo?
Yes the Cues are problematic at the start. Sometimes Halo makes the Phase issues worse.
Old 9th September 2015 | Show parent
  #141
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Have you tired using something like the Flux stereo tool on the track to narrow the stereo width of the track. (Ozone works well too, if the issue is isolated to just one frequency area).

This would probably solve your issue. Same goes for those who have an issue with Penteo sending too much to the surrounds...

Randall


Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncross View Post
Yes the Cues are problematic at the start. Sometimes Halo makes the Phase issues worse.
Old 11th September 2015 | Show parent
  #142
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lemix's Avatar
Gentlemen,

For those in the know...
What settings would "approximate" a neutral upmix like Halo's "exact" in Anymix Pro ?
I need to hold on a little while with the purchase..
No ambiance, no LFE send I guess. What else would you be careful with ?
Old 25th September 2015 | Show parent
  #143
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncross View Post
Yeah that's nice. I am seeing some phase funkyness tho. Not too bad but I am wondering if I can pass QC with it. I might have to submit a test to see if it's usable.
We've just had episodes 3 and 4 of the Bastard Executoner pass QC, (We didn't mix the 2 hour pilot) no issues with phase with Halo.
Old 25th September 2015 | Show parent
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
We've just had episodes 3 and 4 of the Bastard Executoner pass QC, (We didn't mix the 2 hour pilot) no issues with phase with Halo.
A lot of networks don't test for phase issues. Abc is really strict about it and I mix a lot of stuff for them.
Old 2nd October 2015 | Show parent
  #145
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Paul NuGenAudio's Avatar
 

Thanks to Brandon, and the other users who have sent us examples of audio artefacts with Halo Upmix.

We've just released an updated build which has the fix in for these now, so if this was something you were having, please go ahead and download the latest version.

Thanks for everyone's help in sorting this out.
Old 3rd October 2015 | Show parent
  #146
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TVPostSound's Avatar
Unhappy

Quote:
Originally Posted by piratepost View Post
I've been looking for a viable up mixer for a long time. I've spent way too much money on dead end solutions starting with a hardware box from a company is no longer around. I own every upmix plugin made for ProTools except Penteo.
Nugen is a safe bet. They have a wide range of incredible products. NuGen is very receptive to input from their users. I expect Halo to become the standard. I can't say enough about the positive experiences I've had with the folks from NuGen and their incredible products.
Unfortunately, I blew my up mix budget on Anymix Pro and Penteo 7!!

Still have useless TC Unwrap, and SRS Circle Surround.

Is this where my luck is headed??
Old 3rd October 2015 | Show parent
  #147
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVPostSound View Post
Unfortunately, I blew my up mix budget on Anymix Pro and Penteo 7!!

Still have useless TC Unwrap, and SRS Circle Surround.

Is this where my luck is headed??
What? You didn't spend money on the DTS Upmixer plug too? It made it all the way to version 1.0 before end of life.
Old 27th October 2015 | Show parent
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfyou View Post
I did have issues trying the VST version in Fairlight, I'll have to figure that out.
Did you get these issues sorted out? We're on the lookout for Fairlight compatible upmixing plugins.

From what I hear about the Halo, seems great. Though nugen stuff in general seems a little sketchy in Fairlight.

I'd also like to hear suggestions on where to insert the upmixing plug in in a session. I'm thinking you strap it across a 5.1 music bus or live track, but seems a bit cumbersome to me that way.
Old 27th October 2015 | Show parent
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisIsSka View Post
Did you get these issues sorted out? We're on the lookout for Fairlight compatible upmixing plugins.

From what I hear about the Halo, seems great. Though nugen stuff in general seems a little sketchy in Fairlight.

I'd also like to hear suggestions on where to insert the upmixing plug in in a session. I'm thinking you strap it across a 5.1 music bus or live track, but seems a bit cumbersome to me that way.
No and the response from Nugen was not very confidence-inspiring. They indicated it was a general problem with the VST version of the plugin. I'd be interested if anyone using Nuendo has tried Halo.

Because of that I can't buy it. Which is a shame because I like it but I need both AAX and VST compatibility.

For VST, choices seem to be Waves UM226, Iosono Anymix, and Penteo 5. The Waves is just barely acceptable. You can get good results from the other two but they both have such a big delay that I end up running all the cues through them and printing them.

Auro-2d sounds great but I'm not sure if they ever actually released the VST version. I should check on that...
Old 27th October 2015 | Show parent
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfyou View Post
Auro-2d sounds great but I'm not sure if they ever actually released the VST version. I should check on that...
AFAIK there's no VST for the Auro. Website says AAX only so far.

And that's a shame about the plugins having huge latency, I like to keep my options open during a mix but printing the music isn't the end of the world. Thanks!
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