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Hi-end digital mixer vs PT ITB Equalizer Plugins
Old 3rd July 2015
  #211
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ggegan's Avatar
I agree with Marti and Philper.

We have to be practical about how we define ITB and not split hairs or else it stops having any meaning. Is an HDX card in a PCIe slot ITB, but an HDX card in an expansion chassis OTB? I think not.

I think most people would agree that if you process and automate within the source audio session, including any external hardware/software peripherals and processing cards that are accessed by or looped back into the audio session, then it's ITB. If the audio is passed on to an external system (i.e. a conventional console, not a control surface) for independent processing and automation, which then passes the audio on to a recorder, then it's OTB.

All this matters only in terms of what kind of workflow you prefer. Both ways of working are capable of generating really great and really lousy sound.

Last edited by ggegan; 3rd July 2015 at 02:23 AM..
Old 3rd July 2015
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
Let's make something perfectly clear:
Nathan work in a Facility that use Fairlight
as their choice. His bias about Pro Tools can be easily seen
if you look at his comments of previous posts.
In my book ( and most others) Henchman is mixing in the box
with an additional box that was made to attach on a Pro Tools system.
It's still in the box, it being done in Pro Tools.
A Cedar box that is controlled by Pro Tools and is automated in
Pro Tools (and can be edited/ modified or cut or pasted within Pro Tools) is still mixing in the box.
That's not fair. For one, I don't believe I've said anything negative about PT ITB mixing. And being on a Fairlight EVO only shows how I favor an ITB workflow.

Just to be clear
Old 3rd July 2015
  #213
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Henchman's Avatar
I think it worries some folks to know it doesn't take upwards of a half a million dollar console, to create a great mix.
Old 3rd July 2015
  #214
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Henchman's Avatar
But to go back to my previous answer to the statement that large format digital console make better sounding mixes than mixing ITB.

That's BS.
Old 3rd July 2015
  #215
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minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
Let's make something perfectly clear:
Nathan work in a Facility that use Fairlight
as their choice. His bias about Pro Tools can be easily seen
if you look at his comments of previous posts.
In my book ( and most others) Henchman is mixing in the box
You have a book? Probably ghost-written.
Old 3rd July 2015
  #216
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Pro tools sounds just as good as anything else. It's the cook not the kitchen.
Old 3rd July 2015
  #217
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Stimmt's Avatar
 

Old 3rd July 2015
  #218
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dmitri's Avatar
As far as discussion came to using favourite plugins and other tools that belong to a mixer. I myself wouldn't mix without my favourite ones. I guess that many of us have thousands of dollars invested in favourite software which we bring in our iLoks, drives, boxes etc. Moreover, all this stuff asks for upgrades, annual plans, new plugins. But, when I mix at my studio, I charge for the work and also for the studio. What to do when we mix at a facility? Do you include it just in your bill for mixing work?
Old 4th July 2015
  #219
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This is an interesting question--are you itinerant mixers bringing your own plugs and external DSP boxes for ITB mixes getting a "kit fee" for that stuff, or are you throwing it in as part of your dayrate?

philp
Old 4th July 2015
  #220
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ggegan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
This is an interesting question--are you itinerant mixers bringing your own plugs and external DSP boxes for ITB mixes getting a "kit fee" for that stuff, or are you throwing it in as part of your dayrate?

philp
You're so funny!
Old 4th July 2015
  #221
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
This is an interesting question--are you itinerant mixers bringing your own plugs and external DSP boxes for ITB mixes getting a "kit fee" for that stuff, or are you throwing it in as part of your dayrate?

philp
What Gary said.
Old 4th July 2015
  #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
What Gary said.
Funny? This is a business, so it's not a bad question I think. On the production side we charge for equipment we bring to shoots. In the old analog days outboard processing devices were charged by studios a la carte. There has been some chat here about the dollars spent on the investment in getting and updating these plugins etc being carried from stage to stage. If you aren't passing at least some of the cost of those plugs on to your clients you are kind of setting a precedent and expectation that the use of those things is free. One of the first lessons I was taught in the sound biz was to keep the book keeping for labor and equipment separate. If those plugs make you better and faster that is worth something, something more than what your normal labor rate is.

philp
Old 4th July 2015
  #223
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Henchman's Avatar
Expecting a client to pay for specialty tools I insist on using and bringing is pretty bold, don't you think?
Old 4th July 2015
  #224
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IT really IS a Good question, and yes that WAS the way things where in the past. But today? No one accepts to pay for anything extra unless its something the client want and that isn't available. Only very specialist equipment could be charged for today. Everything Else has to be included in your fee.
And I really struggle to define what that extra could be. A cedar hardware setup I guess..
Old 4th July 2015
  #225
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ggegan's Avatar
If you want to get paid for your plugin choices, you will have to try to factor it into your hourly rate and not bill it as a separate item. Good luck with that. Unless you are working on major motion pictures it's often a challenge just to maintain ones preferred rate. Except for the blockbusters, budgets have been falling steadily for a number of years so there is a lot of resistance to any extra charges.
Old 4th July 2015
  #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
Expecting a client to pay for specialty tools I insist on using and bringing is pretty bold, don't you think?
No, I don't think. One thing I know from decades in this business: you don't ask, you don't get. You can give away the use of your plugins if you want, remembering that they weren't cheap, have to be upgraded and (as you say) substantially enhance the end product you deliver to your client, but I call it a poor business model. Fees for extras are a very embedded aspect of business now, since base-rates don't seem to be going up, but your cost of doing business is.

philp
Old 4th July 2015
  #227
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dr.sound's Avatar
 

Most of the in demand Freelance Re-Recording Mixers are getting "over scale" rates. Clients or Post Sound Companies have high expectations of these men/ women. One unfortunately cannot 'Ala Carte" their tool's above their rate.
That is the reality of how "Hollywood" works. There is such a push to slash any Post Sound rate that when you ask for more, they don't ask for you.
__________________
Old 4th July 2015
  #228
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
Most of the in demand Freelance Re-Recording Mixers are getting "over scale" rates. Clients or Post Sound Companies have high expectations of these men/ women. One unfortunately cannot 'Ala Carte" their tool's above their rate.
That is the reality of how "Hollywood" works. There is such a push to slash any Post Sound rate that when you ask for more, they don't ask for you.
__________________
Exactly.
My rate includes me and everything I bring.
Old 4th July 2015
  #229
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Also if the client is booking time at a studio, they are already paying for gear rental once. If you charge them again, that's kind of unfar. If a freelancer expects it use a plug in set, and I think the deal is worth it, I will buy the plug ins he needs for my shop. In the end, the cost of some plug ins is cheaper than a mixer trying to rent me a plug in for a series.
Old 4th July 2015
  #230
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ggegan's Avatar
All the facilities where I work provide plugin packages that are capable of doing a high quality professional mix. If people want to bring their own plugins because of their personal preferences, the facilities aren't going to pay them for it. Many facilities are willing to purchase a new plugin if it can be demonstrated that it improves their competitiveness and all their mixers have been clamoring for it for a while. DX mixers are more likely to get special tools than FX mixers. Also, if the Director of Sound wants a specific plugin it's a done deal. Sometimes a facility will rent a specific tool for a specific job, but I don't think I've ever heard of them renting from a mixer, only a third party vendor.

Last edited by ggegan; 4th July 2015 at 09:24 PM..
Old 5th July 2015
  #231
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I'm sure Philper knows this very well already but there are big differences between production and post. Every production mixer I know charges a separate kit rental and gets it, no questions asked. And they will readily refuse a job that won't pay it because they won't work on someone else's unknown rig.

As a freelance post mixer I'm expected to show up and work with what I'm given. Occasionally I use my own tools, be it my laptop, my plugins, or my sounds. But I would be laughed at or never called back if I charged for it. If something additional is required for a job the studio will rent or buy, and maybe it will get billed to the client, maybe not depending on circumstances.
Old 5th July 2015
  #232
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Like I said, you don't ask, you don't get. Cultures, habits, mores and business models change all the time. There is always a constant downward pressure on base-rates. The airlines went to baggage fees, production mixers started charging mileage and so on. Part of business is figuring out how to make more money from the same clients. If charging for your gear is a bad idea, in general or at this time, then I'd encourage you to find other ways of upping your take, because you can be sure your clients are thinking every day of ways to reduce it.

philp
Old 5th July 2015
  #233
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
If charging for your gear is a bad idea, in general or at this time, then I'd encourage you to find other ways of upping your take, because you can be sure your clients are thinking every day of ways to reduce it.

philp
I am more than happy with my take.
I have heard the stories from clients where mixers would always go an hour or so into overtime no matter what. "Upping their take" that way.
Unless they had a function they needed to get to, and then they were always done on time or early.
There's a fine line between getting paid what you deserve, and bilking a client for a little more.
In the long run, that's simply bad business.
Old 31st July 2015
  #234
Gear Head
Smile

I'm seeing a lot of mentioning of DMG equilibrium here. On the other hand, I've read many good words with the new Fabfilter Pro Q2 about it's more user friendly than DMG equilibrium. I'm just wondering, if you guys are given a choice now, would you go for Fabfilter pro Q2 or DMG equilibrium?

(sorry a bit side track if you don't mind)
Old 31st July 2015
  #235
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by sj2six View Post
I'm seeing a lot of mentioning of DMG equilibrium here. On the other hand, I've read many good words with the new Fabfilter Pro Q2 about it's more user friendly than DMG equilibrium. I'm just wondering, if you guys are given a choice now, would you go for Fabfilter pro Q2 or DMG equilibrium?

(sorry a bit side track if you don't mind)
Equilibrium all the way. I _much_ prefer the interface. I find it much faster to work with and it is more customizable. In guess the power and options it offers is why some people find it less user friendly than Pro Q2 but to me that is just weird. You setup Equilibrium once the way you want it and save that as the default and (if you so wish) can forget about all the extra (GUI) options etc but they are there if you need them at some point in the future. Win win!

Alistair
Old 1st August 2015
  #236
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Equilibrium all the way. I _much_ prefer the interface. I find it much faster to work with and it is more customizable. In guess the power and options it offers is why some people find it less user friendly than Pro Q2 but to me that is just weird. You setup Equilibrium once the way you want it and save that as the default and (if you so wish) can forget about all the extra (GUI) options etc but they are there if you need them at some point in the future. Win win!

Alistair
Just to add flavor, I actually prefer the interface of the FabFilter. For *me*, i find it more intuitive, and just plain faster.

My biggest thing i like about it is the bands stay as they are ordered. so, if i add a new notch between my default bands 3 and 4, it won't shift the other bands down, thus making it work better with controllers. Perhaps i'm not using the DMG stuff correctly, but i couldn't figure out how to do it quickly.

They are both great EQs. and one can't go wrong with either one. since the companies have really good demo policies, just demo and decide for yourself.
Old 1st August 2015
  #237
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by postprosound View Post
My biggest thing i like about it is the bands stay as they are ordered. so, if i add a new notch between my default bands 3 and 4, it won't shift the other bands down, thus making it work better with controllers. Perhaps i'm not using the DMG stuff correctly, but i couldn't figure out how to do it quickly.
That is a good point. I use the mouse for Equilibrium so it isn't an issue for me but I can see how that could be counter productive when working with a controller. I quickly checked the preferences and can't see a quick way to change that behaviour. (It doesn't mean it isn't there. I just didn't find it in a quick browse of the options).

EDIT: Found it. It is called "frequency sorting" under the "Bandstrips" section of the options. You can set it to "On Create", "Click" or "Always". The default is "On Create". Change it to "Always" to always sort by frequency.

Quote:
They are both great EQs. and one can't go wrong with either one. since the companies have really good demo policies, just demo and decide for yourself.
Absolutely.

Alistair
Old 1st August 2015
  #238
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Maybe I am old school here but, to me, eq3 is the most ergonomic eq plug in to use. All other eq plug ins require a mouse, I can use eq3 100% with a s6 or icon.
Old 1st August 2015
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncross View Post
Maybe I am old school here but, to me, eq3 is the most ergonomic eq plug in to use. All other eq plug ins require a mouse, I can use eq3 100% with a s6 or icon.
Pro-Q maps perfectly to a D-Control if you use the 5-band preset as default. I shortly checked on the S6 but didn't compare it with how the EQ3 maps.

Last edited by kosmokrator; 1st August 2015 at 06:30 PM..
Old 1st August 2015
  #240
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by brandoncross View Post
Maybe I am old school here but, to me, eq3 is the most ergonomic eq plug in to use. All other eq plug ins require a mouse, I can use eq3 100% with a s6 or icon.
I'm more concerned with functionality than ergonomics.
What I can do with a plug in, wins over how I can control it.
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