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Hi-end digital mixer vs PT ITB Equalizer Plugins
Old 29th June 2015
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan View Post
I have not, Charles, although I would be interested in checking it out. How are you using it and how does it work when you have 24bit delivery requirements? I am not worried about disk space, it's relatively cheap.
its pretty transparent- as to delivery files, I think you would need to export the audio clips out as 24bit- however, if there is no clipping (which there really shouldnt be) it would net out as expected- The internal headroom is really nice, especially with dense, loud sounds. I think Alastair mentioned it, but plugin math could impact things- but that probably wouldnt as much of an issue in practice.
Old 30th June 2015
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
The only technical reason I can see for using 32 bit float files is for rendering audio that goes over 0 dB FS or that is so quiet that the 24 bit the noise floor becomes an issue.
I was also under the impression that since a fixed point file must be converted to floating point (re-/)saving the files at 32-bit float would mean no conversion on playback. I'm not sure what the performance impact is on a modern CPU but it's probably not significant unless one is playing back a large amount of tracks.

I could remember this wrong though.
Old 30th June 2015
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I was also under the impression that since a fixed point file must be converted to floating point (re-/)saving the files at 32-bit float would mean no conversion on playback. I'm not sure what the performance impact is on a modern CPU but it's probably not significant unless one is playing back a large amount of tracks.

I could remember this wrong though.
No impact on performance except 32 bit files are much bigger and effect disk cache and hard drive performance. Covering a file in realtime from 24 bit to 32 bit float takes not CPU at all. Ip
Old 30th June 2015
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I was also under the impression that since a fixed point file must be converted to floating point (re-/)saving the files at 32-bit float would mean no conversion on playback. I'm not sure what the performance impact is on a modern CPU but it's probably not significant unless one is playing back a large amount of tracks.

I could remember this wrong though.
As brandoncross already wrote, there is no penalty. The conversion can happen within another operation. The extra load of the larger file size of using 32 bit float flies will have a bigger impact on your system. (Although that is only relevant on very big sessions these days).

Alistair
Old 1st July 2015
  #155
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I also think which plugins you use, can make a big difference.
I've mentioned it here on Gearslutz before, but I love the UAD plugins for my dialog.
Along with the DMG audio Eq's. And I just started using the Fabfiiter Pro DS, which is a phenomenal de-esser.
There's not a console out there that can give me the flexibility and tools I have when mixing ITB.
Old 1st July 2015
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
I also think which plugins you use, can make a big difference.
I've mentioned it here on Gearslutz before, but I love the UAD plugins for my dialog.
Along with the DMG audio Eq's. And I just started using the Fabfiiter Pro DS, which is a phenomenal de-esser.
There's not a console out there that can give me the flexibility and tools I have when mixing ITB.
That is one of the issues with being freelance, when you travel around to different facilities you don't always have the option of using your favorite plugins. However, all the Avid plugins are acceptable, if not necessarily my favorites.

The thing I like about mixing ITB is that wherever I go, my templates and sessions are familiar and set up how I like to work. Back in the day a large company like Todd AO could easily have 6 or 7 different conventional consoles on their different stages and if you worked at other facilities as well that could raise the number of consoles you had to be familiar with to a dozen or more. That always made the first day or two of the mix extra stressful. Working ITB eliminates a lot of that. I find that even when I am working on a console that can't control PT directly, I will often just use my mouse and keyboard to easily accomplish things that the console can't do.
Old 1st July 2015
  #157
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I travel around, and bring my plugins with me.
I have several UAD quad core sattelites. One at each of the smartpost facilities, and one that's a floater that I take to outside facilities.
So I always have my favorite plugins.
I will not mix without them.
Old 1st July 2015
  #158
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I wonder how console makers will adapt to this trend, and not end up like Kodak.
Old 1st July 2015
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
I travel around, and bring my plugins with me.
I have several UAD quad core sattelites. One at each of the smartpost facilities, and one that's a floater that I take to outside facilities.
So I always have my favorite plugins.
I will not mix without them.
Mark, if you don't mind:

How do you deal with the fact that a studio might not have your plugins and then you having to leave a PT session that doesn't represent the mix any longer? Do you print effects and thus "consolidate" or "flatten" what you have done?

Or in other words and practically speaking: If someone wanted to do a re-edit of dialog and you ran that through a UAD plugin on the DX bus, then that plugin would be needed again just to be able to do the edit....
Old 1st July 2015
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Mark, if you don't mind:

How do you deal with the fact that a studio might not have your plugins and then you having to leave a PT session that doesn't represent the mix any longer? Do you print effects and thus "consolidate" or "flatten" what you have done?

Or in other words and practically speaking: If someone wanted to do a re-edit of dialog and you ran that through a UAD plugin on the DX bus, then that plugin would be needed again just to be able to do the edit....
Exactly my reason for having several UAD sattelites. If I'm unavailable to do the change, then I can just send over one of my sattelites. And all the other plugins. I use, are serial number authorized.
I stay away from ilok style copy protected plugins.
Old 1st July 2015
  #161
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I can't speak for Mark, but some of his co-workers (and others) would hire out a stage where I worked . In those instances they would bring iLoks and installers. When they were done, we would move the plug ins into the unused folder until they returned.

Randall


Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Mark, if you don't mind:

How do you deal with the fact that a studio might not have your plugins and then you having to leave a PT session that doesn't represent the mix any longer? Do you print effects and thus "consolidate" or "flatten" what you have done?

Or in other words and practically speaking: If someone wanted to do a re-edit of dialog and you ran that through a UAD plugin on the DX bus, then that plugin would be needed again just to be able to do the edit....
Old 1st July 2015
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
I travel around, and bring my plugins with me.
I have several UAD quad core sattelites. One at each of the smartpost facilities, and one that's a floater that I take to outside facilities.
So I always have my favorite plugins.
I will not mix without them.
Unfortunately not all facilities will allow you to do that. One major facility in particular is somewhat hostile to working ITB. You can do it, but they are resistant to installing custom plugins because they want all their stages to be identical for engineering purposes and the flexibility to move mixers around with the least amount of hassle. Also, I'm not interested in spending another couple grand on plugins just so someone else can use them when i'm not available. If I do use my own plugins at a facility I audiosuite a copy of the clip so I don't have to worry about it. We've talked about this before.

Last edited by ggegan; 1st July 2015 at 07:46 PM..
Old 1st July 2015
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan View Post
Unfortunately not all facilities will allow you to do that. One major facility in particular is somewhat hostile to working ITB. You can do it, but they are resistant to installing custom plugins because they want all their stages to be identical for engineering purposes and the flexibility to move mixers around with the least amount of hassle. Also, I'm not interested in spending another couple grand on plugins just so someone else can use them when i'm not available. If I do use my own plugins at a facility I audiosuite a copy of the clip so I don't have to worry about it. We've talked about this before.
Ditto, at our facility it is prohibited to install any custom plugins. It's not our decision, but this is the rule.
Old 1st July 2015
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan View Post
Unfortunately not all facilities will allow you to do that. One major facility in particular is somewhat hostile to working ITB .
And to be honest, I would not, and could not take a gig there then.
I refuse to compromise my work, because of some edict handed down by someone who isn't a mixer.
I have to protect myself, and the quality of my work.
Old 1st July 2015
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
And to be honest, I would not, and could not take a gig there then.
I refuse to compromise my work, because of some edict handed down by someone who isn't a mixer.
I have to protect myself, and the quality of my work.
I don't think it's impossible, but would require more politics and negotiation.
You're right, these rules aren't made by mixers.
Old 1st July 2015
  #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
And to be honest, I would not, and could not take a gig there then.
I refuse to compromise my work, because of some edict handed down by someone who isn't a mixer.
I have to protect myself, and the quality of my work.
People do awesome work there, you just may have to adjust your workflow a bit.

The quality of my work is not dependent on any specific plugins or equipment. As long as the room has good acoustics and the console has the basic tools, which they all do, i'm fine. The biggest factors in how good a mix sounds is almost never the gear, it's the quality of the sound editing, the mixer's skill and attitude and the director's choices. That doesn't mean that I don't have preferences for how I like to work, but I would never turn down a job because I have to adapt to a different set of tools.

Anyway, it is so much better than the way things used to be that I don't sweat it.
Old 1st July 2015
  #167
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Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan View Post
People do awesome work there, you just may have to adjust your workflow a bit.

The quality of my work is not dependent on any specific plugins or equipment. As long as the room has good acoustics and the console has the basic tools, which they all do, i'm fine. The biggest factors in how good a mix sounds is almost never the gear, it's the quality of the sound editing, the mixer's skill and attitude and the director's choices. That doesn't mean that I don't have preferences for how I like to work, but I would never turn down a job because I have to adapt to a different set of tools.

Anyway, it is so much better than the way things used to be that I don't sweat it.
Well, as a Dialog mixer I need and use specific tools to get my dialog to sound the way I want it to sound. And it is something I absolutely refuse to budge on.

I'm not sure which facility it is you are talking about. But again, I couldn't and wouldn't mix there without having access to my tools.
Old 1st July 2015
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quadraphonics View Post
I can't speak for Mark, but some of his co-workers (and others) would hire out a stage where I worked . In those instances they would bring iLoks and installers. When they were done, we would move the plug ins into the unused folder until they returned.

Randall
I was actually thinking of a different issue..
Old 1st July 2015
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
Exactly my reason for having several UAD sattelites. If I'm unavailable to do the change, then I can just send over one of my sattelites. And all the other plugins. I use, are serial number authorized.
I stay away from ilok style copy protected plugins.
Thanks for the reply.

I'm asking because we've discussed what people describe as a requirement to provide "the mix" as a deliverable, and I've asked, and received not that comprehensive answers, what that actually entails.

The reason for that discussion was whether or not it was viable to mix on Nuendo (or other) and deliver the mix as rendered files. The objection back then was that one couldn't just go into the mix any deeper than tweaking levels, and arguably panning. I.e. if a piece of dialog needed reediting then the .aaf or similar would be required, after which the new edit would have to be matched to the printed predub.

So with that in mind, it seems like if a studio doesn't have the tools you used, or a client receiving the final elements (thus including the PT session) doesn't, then they're stuck in almost exactly the same situation.

Or in other words: The backwards compatibility that some are supposedly requiring doesn't really seem to work in practice. At least not without jumping through hoops which was one of the arguments against using other software.

All of the above is neither here or there and I'm not arguing the merits of what you do, I was just curious...
Old 1st July 2015
  #170
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Corporate-minded facilities make software decisions from IT depts not mixers. Installing software is not allowed, period.

I don't like turning down work. I have some personal standards for the room and basic tools but I can get by without some preferred plugins. Maybe I should befriend the folks who make purchasing decisions.
Old 1st July 2015
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfyou View Post
Corporate-minded facilities make software decisions from IT depts not mixers. Installing software is not allowed, period.

I don't like turning down work. I have some personal standards for the room and basic tools but I can get by without some preferred plugins. Maybe I should befriend the folks who make purchasing decisions.
I simply refuse to compromise the quality of my work.
It takes too long to build up a reputation, that is easily destroyed by one bad job.
Old 1st July 2015
  #172
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Henchman's Avatar
I also doubt anyone would forbid someone like Andy Nelson from installing a plugin, if he wanted to.
Old 1st July 2015
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfyou View Post
Corporate-minded facilities make software decisions from IT depts not mixers. Installing software is not allowed, period.

I don't like turning down work. I have some personal standards for the room and basic tools but I can get by without some preferred plugins. Maybe I should befriend the folks who make purchasing decisions.
What I often see is the director of sound, who is generally the highest ranking mixer gets together with the chief engineer and hash out a plan. They may or may not ask the other staff mixers' opinions.

The issue is a practical one. In order to keep a really large facility running smoothly with a minimum of glitches and the ability to move mixes and personnel from one stage to another with minimum hassle a universal toolset is decided upon. If a stage goes down or a mix needs to move to another for any reason all that needs to happen is to pull the sessions from the server in the new room and they're good to go at a moment's notice.

The other complicating factor is that some major facilities must follow MPAA certification rules in order to maintain their high end client base, which restricts access to the systems and the servers. That means that generally only certain engineering staff are allowed install apps and plugins or move them from the unused to the used folder and the installers must come from a known source, not just someone's hard drive or flash drive. Personal iLoks are also a problem.
Old 1st July 2015
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan View Post
What I often see is the director of sound, who is generally the highest ranking mixer gets together with the chief engineer and hash out a plan. They may or may not ask the other staff mixers' opinions.

The issue is a practical one. In order to keep a really large facility running smoothly with a minimum of glitches and the ability to move mixes and personnel from one stage to another with minimum hassle a universal toolset is decided upon. If a stage goes down or a mix needs to move to another for any reason all that needs to happen is to pull the sessions from the server in the new room and they're good to go at a moment's notice.

The other complicating factor is that some major facilities must follow MPAA certification rules in order to maintain their high end client base, which restricts access to the systems and the servers. That means that generally only certain engineering staff are allowed install apps and plugins or move them from the unused to the used folder and the installers must come from a known source, not just someone's hard drive or flash drive. Personal iLoks are also a problem.
Do you really think an A-List mixer coming in to mix, wouldn't be allowed to use whatever he brings in?
It takes longer to transfer the sessions, than it does to install a set if additional plugins.
Old 2nd July 2015
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
Do you really think an A-List mixer coming in to mix, wouldn't be allowed to use whatever he brings in?
It takes longer to transfer the sessions, than it does to install a set if additional plugins.
I guess you'll have to ask one if you really want to know.

Why would you transfer the session?
Old 2nd July 2015
  #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan View Post

Why would you transfer the session?
When the room goes down and you have to move stages.
Old 2nd July 2015
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
When the room goes down and you have to move stages.
Well, depending on how your server and network are set up you can just run directly off the server. With the timeline audio cached you probably don't even need that powerful of a server.

The stage doesn't necessarily have to go down to justify a move, sometimes it's because of scheduling conflicts.
Old 2nd July 2015
  #178
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan View Post
People do awesome work there, you just may have to adjust your workflow a bit.

The quality of my work is not dependent on any specific plugins or equipment. As long as the room has good acoustics and the console has the basic tools, which they all do, i'm fine. The biggest factors in how good a mix sounds is almost never the gear, it's the quality of the sound editing, the mixer's skill and attitude and the director's choices. That doesn't mean that I don't have preferences for how I like to work, but I would never turn down a job because I have to adapt to a different set of tools.

Anyway, it is so much better than the way things used to be that I don't sweat it.
Fully agreed. I can understand someone needing some specialised tools like denoisers, declickers, declippers or very specific tools like UNVEIL or UNFILTER from Zynaptiq or even something like a dynamic EQ with side-chaining functions (which I like to use but can live without) but UAD? As far as I am aware none of their plugins are irreplaceable. Usually room acoustics and monitoring are more important to me than the brand of EQ, Compression etc.

Alistair

Last edited by UnderTow; 2nd July 2015 at 07:38 AM..
Old 2nd July 2015
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
but UAD? As far as I am aware none of their plugins are irreplaceable.

Alistair
I would say, that's a matter of opinion.
Old 2nd July 2015
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
I would say, that's a matter of opinion.
As is the question why many prefer the sonics of a console. Actually I don't get why you keep dissing consoles on a forum when you seem to be so insisting on a porprietary topology (UAD) yourself. Where is the big deal? These things all sound a little different, and everybody hears a little different, all good. No need to force a standard or a paradigm on anybody.
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