The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Hi-end digital mixer vs PT ITB Equalizer Plugins
Old 23rd July 2014
  #31
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan View Post
I often work at Technicolor on the Paramount Lot and they don't want you to use anything that isn't already installed on their system. Other places don't mind, but I have had the experience where I used my own plugins at a facility and then afterwards when I am booked at another facility they needed to get into the mix for some reason and demanded that I send over my iLok when I needed it on the current project. It was awkward. I suppose if I were on staff it wouldn't be as much of a problem, but I bounce around to a lot of different facilities.
And as incredible as it might seem, I would refuse to mix without my plugin set.
It's my reputation on the line vs them making a mirror image of their drive.

I have two UAD satellites, so one is always available, and the DMG plugins don't use an iLok.

I doubt Technicolor would give a mixer a hard time about installing plugins, when he was coming in to mix a feature.
And if they did, that would be a pretty bad business move in my books.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #32
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
And as incredible as it might seem, I would refuse to mix without my plugin set.
It's my reputation on the line vs them making a mirror image of their drive.

I have two UAD satellites, so one is always available, and the DMG plugins don't use an iLok.

I doubt Technicolor would give a mixer a hard time about installing plugins, when he was coming in to mix a feature.
And if they did, that would be a pretty bad business move in my books.
I see a lot of this. You have to use my template ect... And then I get in the template and it's totally wrong, routing all over the place and backwards. Shoot. My template is so simple. No special routing or processing. Just eq and DNS on every channel and then limit on the bus. I agree, if I can't use my template, I don't mix.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #33
Lives for gear
 
ggegan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
And as incredible as it might seem, I would refuse to mix without my plugin set.
It's my reputation on the line vs them making a mirror image of their drive.

I have two UAD satellites, so one is always available, and the DMG plugins don't use an iLok.

I doubt Technicolor would give a mixer a hard time about installing plugins, when he was coming in to mix a feature.
And if they did, that would be a pretty bad business move in my books.
While it may be somewhat inconvenient for you or me as a mixer, there are very valid reasons for their policy. They are committed to adhering to the MPAA's security certification in order to prevent piracy and stolen assets, which means that access to the computers and the internal network must be very tightly controlled. This protects not just Technicolor and the clients, but also our individual livelihoods. You have to consider that Technicolor works on many of the biggest blockbusters in the industry which are the biggest targets of piracy, and MPAA certification is absolutely vital to retaining those clients. I don't view it as a capricious policy, in spite of the inconvenience to me when I work there. Also, in an organization of that size, to enable projects to move from stage to stage seamlessly requires a set of standard configurations, or else it would become an engineering nightmare. Other facilities have different needs and so can be more flexible. I might add that they don't seem to have any problems attracting the top mixers.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #34
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
Like I said Gary, I am not willing to do what I would feel is substandard work, because of a plugin issue. Do you really think if a big time mixer came into Technicolor to mix a feature, he wouldn't be allowed to use his template and his plugins?

As londonengineer pointed out, it's very easy to create a disk image. They do it at Universal. Last year I did work at Universal, Lotus, picture head and another facility where you couldn't even get online from the dubstage because if security. No problem using my plugins, And at smartpost I float between three different stages and two buildings.

If I was asked to mix something at Technicolor/Paramount, using my template and plugins would be a must. It's a non-negotiable point with me. I know how to get the sound I like, and how to deal with the issues that pop up, quickly, because of my plugins and template.
That's why I would be getting hired in the first place, I would think.
EQ3 and a waves bundle just doesn't cut it for me.

It's up to the tech dept to make it happen. Period.

All I have is my reputation. I've worked long and hard to build that up.
I would rather pass on a gig that won't let me use my template, because someone else thinks it's too much work to make a disk image.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #35
Lives for gear
 
ggegan's Avatar
Mark, there is only one ICON rerecording console in the entire facility, so the expectation is that mixers will primarily be using the S5 console DSP resources for mixing , but there is also an excellent complement of plugins and hardware available, you just have to accept that you can't necessarily walk in there as a guest mixer and have a totally custom configuration set up for you, however I'm flexible enough that I can do just as good a job on their systems as any others, I just have to adapt a bit. Everything there is extremely high quality, it just isn't necessarily the stuff I always use when I'm working on my own system or at other facilities. No biggie.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #36
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggegan View Post
Mark, there is only one ICON rerecording console in the entire facility, so the expectation is that mixers will primarily be using the S5 console DSP resources for mixing , but there is also an excellent complement of plugins and hardware available, you just have to accept that you can't necessarily walk in there as a guest mixer and have a totally custom configuration set up for you, however I'm flexible enough that I can do just as good a job on their systems as any others, I just have to adapt a bit. Everything there is extremely high quality, it just isn't necessarily the stuff I always use when I'm working on my own system or at other facilities. No biggie.
I would only be using the System 5 as a controller in that case.
Not interested in using its DSP at all.

I actually still can't believe they stuck S5 consoles in TV dub stages.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #37
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post

It's up to the tech dept to make it happen. Period.
I'm again and again astonished by your 'there's my way and it's the only and best one, and everything else it just wrong'-attitude.
As Gary pointed out, there are very valid reasons to not cater to the diva needs of a guest engineer in some facilities.
In the one I work for, we often have to make changes to 1-2 year old sessions and are expected to return the updated mix 1-2 hours after the call got in.
I'd really love to see the face of the producer on the phone whom I tell 'sure, just let me call that mixer who did it back then, maybe he can snailmail his plugin box here in some days, and we'll have it mixed in a week or so.'

There's no right or wrong way in this, there are different facilities with different valid policies that fit to their business model.
And as a mixer, one is not nearly in a position high enough to mess with general business policies of a bigger facility.
Of course it's also a valid approach if you don't mix with your stuff, although, to be honest, I' doubt you would say no to a call mixing the next blockbuster on a nice stage but without UAD plugins.

To use your line of reasoning, it's up to the mixer to make it happen.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #38
Lives for gear
 
Stimmt's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kosmokrator View Post
I'm again and again astonished by your 'there's my way and it's the only and best one, and everything else it just wrong'-attitude.
You are not the first to experience this. The Henchdemagog is at it once again. Ah and to get back to thread topic. I would by all means prefer a Large Digital Console whenever it is available. For sonic reasons that is.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #39
Lives for gear
Nope, it's just different approaches. I am a console zealot just as much as Henchman is a ITB zealot, but I am with him 100% on this.

Mixers used to lug around their personal Cedars/Jungers/verbs/other outboard in the 'old days' and the stage would have to accommodate this, nothing has changed but they are now using plugins.

Some common sense when doing deliveries can cover a lot of fixes without having to drag in the exact plugin chain for a quick update.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #40
Lives for gear
But back on the thread topic, DFC is a special case when it comes to sound - never heard anyone say anything other than good things about it. There are lots of workflow questions to include when talking about such things, of which just one is sound 'quality' unfortunately.

One case where the big console is still king is large multi-rig setups with multiple mixers and editors, video players, recorders, headphone mixes etc. where good metering/monitoring/bussing and the like are vital. A modern DFC has about 900 channels and 192 busses now, with support for 1500+ inputs. Most of this is driven by Atmos/Auro3D etc. where panning within stems wider than 7.1 without bodging extra busses is a requirement.

For a one-man fast-turnaround TV and small film setup based around 1 big PT rig the requirements are very different and even I realise adding a console could just complicate the issue.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #41
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stimmt View Post
I would by all means prefer a Large Digital Console whenever it is available. For sonic reasons that is.
Having worked on large digital consoles, I disagree.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #42
Guys, this horse has been beaten to death in many threads over the recent months. Let's not go there again
Old 23rd July 2014
  #43
Lives for gear
 

I guess what throws me about Hench's argument, is that the PT fanboys are always going on n on about how everyone needs to be on PT for compatibility. So that, "you could go anywhere and open your session without any issues."

How does I need to work on my Template that requires unique Software and Hardware fit into that?
Old 23rd July 2014
  #44
Horses for courses.

I freelance and recently have done promo mixing work at a major broadcaster with 6 suites all running Fairlight using a fixed template and a standardised Waves plug in bundle so that a job can be picked up by anybody at any time. That makes perfect sense.

I did a 2 day Icon mix on a doc at a facility with DFC and Icon rooms who use a drive mirror and install whatever plug ins and PT version you request. That was a combination of mine and their licences. That made perfect sense.

I also did a premix on Icon in one facility/final on DFC somewhere else recently, mostly because the majority of Dolby certified rooms in London are console based (though this is changing). That made sense for that film.

They all went down a specific route for a variety of reasons, mostly determined by budget, acoustics and availability. There are issues with all of these workflows, but flexibility is a good thing.

Rob Walker AMPS
Old 23rd July 2014
  #45
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathand View Post
I guess what throws me about Hench's argument, is that the PT fanboys are always going on n on about how everyone needs to be on PT for compatibility. So that, "you could go anywhere and open your session without any issues."

How does I need to work on my Template that requires unique Software and Hardware fit into that?
That's right. I CAN go anywhere and open up my template.
From the minute I walk in to when my template is open with my plugins is no more than half an hour tops.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #46
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stimmt View Post
You are not the first to experience this. The Henchdemagog is at it once again. Ah and to get back to thread topic. I would by all means prefer a Large Digital Console whenever it is available. For sonic reasons that is.
To stand in Mark's defence, it's entirely up to him to accept or reject jobs depending on the clients restrictions. Not once in this thread has he outright said other ways are working are wrong. He's just said he won't take jobs where he can't use his own plugin chain.

OK, he also said it's a bad business decision for a company like Technicolor. I don't know how many major budget AAA+ films Henchman has mixed but I'm reasonably confident if he does turn down a project for this exact reason he's not going to lose sleep until the next one rolls in that he can work on in his own terms.

But on the flip side, I can appreciate why companies want to keep things consistent, I work on programming by the state broadcaster in Singapore and all of the studios are completely identical with respect to their plugins. If we asked Henchman to mix in our studio there's a 0% chance of us being able to accommodate his workflow... Actually that's probably because we're running Fairlight rather than PT but anyway...

I've been shoved into a plugin set that I was unfamiliar with (basically full Waves set, and I didn't use Waves plugins until I stared work here, so built up from scratch) and I think I've been doing OK. Most of the time I use a Q10 and a C4 for my mixes, other mixers also did the same:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
all I use is EQ and a C4
But Hench has moved on from that to what he wants...

Anyway, I basically want to say that what works for US, doesn't work for anyone else. Yes, it's immensely convenient to have everyone stick to the same template. Yes, it's immensely convenient to be able to work 'your own way' every project. It's not always possible. I'm not in a position to demand my own way of working, so I will work with what's given.

If there are mixers here who are comfortable turning down gigs because of plugins and stuff - that's up to them and nobody else.

And in my opinion, I'd rather everyone keep everything in the box (and use Fairlight too hohohoho).

But seriously, ITB is so much less bookkeeping.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #47
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
That's right. I CAN go anywhere and open up my template.
From the minute I walk in to when my template is open with my plugins is no more than half an hour tops.
Not at Technicolor, for one.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #48
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathand View Post
Not at Technicolor, for one.
They don't use pro-tools?
Old 23rd July 2014
  #49
Gear Guru
 
charles maynes's Avatar
 

I am going to chime in to support Mark here as well-

The stages are about client services. If you are hired to do a job- like a mix or whatever, the stage should be setting your workspace up to meet your specifications- It shouldn't matter what inconvenience it brings- because it is being done as billable time. If they are unwilling to adjust- they can look forward to going out of business.

If that means pulling half a System 5 out and replacing it with an ICON, so be it- It is insanity to think that the facilities inconvenience is going to drive that conversation- there is always a facility who will be willing to take in that work and make the parties involved comfortable.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #50
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
I am going to chime in to support Mark here as well-

The stages are about client services. If you are hired to do a job- like a mix or whatever, the stage should be setting your workspace up to meet your specifications- It shouldn't matter what inconvenience it brings- because it is being done as billable time. If they are unwilling to adjust- they can look forward to going out of business.

If that means pulling half a System 5 out and replacing it with an ICON, so be it- It is insanity to think that the facilities inconvenience is going to drive that conversation- there is always a facility who will be willing to take in that work and make the parties involved comfortable.
Yes, I can see that as a viable business model for an independent post studio.
Not for an in house post department of a major broadcaster / media production company.
As was already mentioned by someone else, there it's important to keep all the mixing rooms 100% compatible at all times and be able to work on any session from the last years in a matter of minutes.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #51
Gear Guru
 
charles maynes's Avatar
 

here in LA all the stages are pretty much setup to the preference of the mixers- most OTB folks will get along with whatever is there, but most mixers have specific hardware and software they will prefer to use-

at the end of the day- its what makes the mix work, not the tools that are provided as a baseline. If a facility forces that due to standardization issues, its with the consent of STAFF mixers, not independent ones. It is simply not cost effective to make mixers conform to arcane definitions- especially when speed is at a premium due to the hpurly rates of the stages. One thing to acknowledge is that the acoustic space is why the stage is being used- not the console or outboard.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #52
Gear Maniac
 

I don't have any problems with my plugins on others systems, I have a clone of my current home rig on a firewire drive, take that with me and boot up on that image in target disk mode, with my ilok, onsite.

Im now driving my system on site just using their mac for horsepower. I have to setup the network on day one but that takes a few minutes and is a heck of a lot faster than installed loads of plugins.

Also means Im working on 11 at home or onsite, as Im too used to the dynamics information and metering to want to work without it now.
On native rigs I get more grunt on 11 and the current build plus decklink driver is much better than it was.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #53
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
Having worked on large digital consoles, I disagree.
Mark, having watched your work on tv both SOA and cosmos, i really like your mixing. The talent is you.

Do you believe you would produce a substandard mix if you had to use a S5 room or a d control room without your uad stuff?

Surly you could find something else on the console or of the available plugins that work give you the sound you need?

Serious and inquisitive question.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #54
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ienjoyaudio View Post
Mark, having watched your work on tv both SOA and cosmos, i really like your mixing. The talent is you.

Do you believe you would produce a substandard mix if you had to use a S5 room or a d control room without your uad stuff?

Surly you could find something else on the console or of the available plugins that work give you the sound you need?

Serious and inquisitive question.
I do believe I would have to settle for less, mixing on a console or without my UAD. One being a sacrifice in speed, meaning wasting more valuable time. And wasted time, means a compromise of the mix. Mixing on a Console would not give me 16 bands of notch filters, when needed. And various other things that i use all the time. It becomes especially apparent, when there is dialog that SHOULD have been ADR'd, but wasn't. Then I need every but of processing I have at my disposal, to get it where I want it to be.

But that's just me.
Old 23rd July 2014
  #55
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
Mixing on a Console would not give me 16 bands of notch filters, when needed
Not true, again I only know DFC and it may be different on other systems, but it's easy to have a couple of DX reassign busses with 8-band EQ on each, and maybe even hardware like a Junger or something on. As the routing is automated you can route any channel to the reassign, and even daisy chain them if needed (there's your 16 notches), then route the result to the relevant stem. Same procedure for multiple layers of limiting/compression.

I know there's a million other reasons you like to mix ITB and I'm not arguing with that, just pointing out that this particular example is just as possible on a console.
Old 24th July 2014
  #56
Lives for gear
 
dr.sound's Avatar
 

My feeling is that you should use whatever you are comfortable with.
You are a professional, people pay you for your chops and your opinions.
If the client needs to make changes, you need to be called back in to do the changes. You're the Re-Recording Mixer on the project.
If the changes can't be done with stems and they need to get back into the mix
then you need to be called in on it. You bring your tools and you do the changes.

I strongly prefer ITB for numerous reasons but everyone should have a choice on where and what they work on.
As for facilities and their polices then one should discuss this ahead of time.
If you're requested on a job then the facility should accommodate you the best they can within reason. Especially if you have an ILOK with all your tools and you bring it with you on the project.
Old 24th July 2014
  #57
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by londonengineer View Post
Not true, again I only know DFC and it may be different on other systems, but it's easy to have a couple of DX reassign busses with 8-band EQ on each, and maybe even hardware like a Junger or something on. As the routing is automated you can route any channel to the reassign, and even daisy chain them if needed (there's your 16 notches), then route the result to the relevant stem. Same procedure for multiple layers of limiting/compression.

I know there's a million other reasons you like to mix ITB and I'm not arguing with that, just pointing out that this particular example is just as possible on a console.
I have a 16 band notch filter on every dialog track.
Old 24th July 2014
  #58
Lives for gear
 
ggegan's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
My feeling is that you should use whatever you are comfortable with.
You are a professional, people pay you for your chops and your opinions.
If the client needs to make changes, you need to be called back in to do the changes. You're the Re-Recording Mixer on the project.
If the changes can't be done with stems and they need to get back into the mix
then you need to be called in on it. You bring your tools and you do the changes.

I strongly prefer ITB for numerous reasons but everyone should have a choice on where and what they work on.
As for facilities and their polices then one should discuss this ahead of time.
If you're requested on a job then the facility should accommodate you the best they can within reason. Especially if you have an ILOK with all your tools and you bring it with you on the project.
Marti, in principle I agree with you and Mark, and if I had my druthers, it would always be so, however I have to deal with the realities of my particular career, which I have absolutely no reason to complain about because I've had a great run over the years and I'm very happy with the work I've done, regardless of which tools I had to use.

At many facilities where I mix I can use whichever tools I choose to, however there are some gigs where I don't necessarily get to use all my preferred tools, and I must say often those are some very lucrative gigs on really great projects with very talented coworkers. Is it an inconvenience? I'd say very minor, because those facilities are extremely well appointed, even if they don't have my particular favorite tools. Do I think that the mixes suffered because of it? No, I don't.

I've worked on so many different systems using so many different technologies from primitive to state of the art over the years (as have you) and I learned that I've been able to make even the worst ones work. In fact some of the mixes I'm most proud of over the years were done on really inferior gear, but somehow that didn't seem to matter. I have never yet turned down a gig because of the gear, and I'm not ashamed of a single one of those many projects.

It ain't about the gear.
Old 24th July 2014
  #59
Lives for gear
 

I have an hdn rig that I cart around with me. I just hook the daw into the facility's pro tools io's. Lots of places I work are completely sub standard in many respects. Heck, I might start bringing bass traps with me!
Old 27th July 2014
  #60
Just thought I'd chime in here -IMO both options beat using 2 tin cans and a piece of string......

A few things I notice immediately when I sit down at a sound mixing desk that are different than sitting at any of the ProTools controllers I've used to date;
The panner knob goes through 180 degrees on a audio mixing desk not 270 degrees like it does on Icon or other ProTools controller desk -to me the pan on a 'real' desk is better suited to how my eye/ear/hand relates. -I've trained myself to adjust when working on PT controllers but I prefer the way this work on a sound desk.

The fader ballistics are different -on an audio desk you have more play around the null. When working with ProTools controllers a slight movement at the null = a large change in the level -again you adjust to this but my preference is how it is on a sound desk.

Mixing on ProTools with high delay compensation values can mean that your automation replay is different from your original performance.

There are sometimes offset on offset issues in ProTools that = odd automation replay. Which I experience far less on LFC.

If you 'fill' a range of say panning or level on PT often you will get a audio click on the change point on LFC there is no click.

None of the above equals a deal breaker for most projects and we all have our ways of adjusting -none the less they are differences.

Working within a fully ProTools environment -the big difference (PLUS) is that the audio edit + the audio mix to a large extent become combined. Both can be moved around together really easily -as simple as a cut and paste -and will play on a many different systems even if the ProTools controller (console) is not plugged in -This is the major plus..... to be able to mix in a 'mix room' and then have that same mix repeat in an 'editing room' with all the processing, and the option of changing or evolving anything. (or pre-mix in edit rooms and fine tune in a mix room) And its cool that using ProTools with Icon and now S6 controllers can offer many 'large console like' visual feedback, feel and ergonomics.

Its pretty hard to imagine sound editing now without having some ability to present your edit with a mix already underway in one form or another. and combining the edit and mix in the same technology offers some really exciting options for collaboration -and passing work back and forth between editors and mixers.

Bruno
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump