The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
film post pro guys Dynamics Plugins
Old 6th June 2006
  #31
Lives for gear
 
Jazzpunk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo
So it's revision after revision. Try this. Now try that. I don't know, what do you think... Are we getting enough "T" in "This product will kill you in four months?"
Classic!
Old 6th June 2006
  #32
Gear Addict
 
lefthando's Avatar
 

[QUOTE=Jazzpunk]
Quote:
Originally Posted by elambo
So it's revision after revision. Try this. Now try that. I don't know, what do you think... Are we getting enough "T" in "This product will kill you in four months?"QUOTE]

Classic!
Yeah and then after 6 hours of huming an hawwing about it, one of the group of four ad execs will say:

"well none of us can actually make a final decision. We're going to have to call our boss who, at the moment, is skiing in Whistler. Can we borrow your phone...?

"Yes.. he thinks he likes it but he wants you to run it again after he gets on the chairlift."

"What's that? Well yes, it does seem kind of silly that we're all here and none of us can can make a decision, but really... I wanted to tell my kid that I was in a recording studio today... and after all, we'd rather be here thein in the office. Your coffee is so much better... Hey, are there any more of those muffins?"
Old 6th June 2006
  #33
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhg
I don't really agree with all points fully.

From your description, you have an excellent sounding home theater system. Most consumers don't. Subwoofer stuffed where ever it fits, or adorned with a blanket and used as an endtable "Why won't anything stay on that table" Speakers - those "full range" satellites put on anything in sight.

To be approved by Dolby in order to obtain access to printmastering equipment, the spec includes 3 full range front speakers and 4 surround speakers, proper subwoofer action.

Much different than than a lot of peoples home theater in a box.

A seperate "for home" mix at a more modest facility geared towards producing television and dvd related products to create a mix tailered more towards the average home viewer/listener will sound better in the average environs.

My thoughts.

Regards,

jhg
I agree with you on most of your points, however I don't know of anybody actively doing these remixes, so by deduction it is quite likely they are being drawn off the original mixes.

I don't think that surround mixes should be tv mixes as surround is officially destined for home theatre, potentially a stereo foldown. Most film mixes I have for DVD work "ok", I don't have the problems that the original poster is talking about, and as I mentioned the Dolby AC3 encoding is equiped with compression to mitigate the obviously large dynamic range of the theatrical mix.

Certainly in the early days studios were mixing for both releases, as I mentioned they were also spending tens of thousands of pounds on 3D graphics for menu's and extras. This has all but gone now. IMHO its a content driven market, after all how many of us buy a film because it has extras on the disc? I think the film studios are doing what anybody else in business tries to do, ie maximise their proffits. The costs involved in mixing for film are extreme and I can't see them paying out twice for a dedicated DVD version.


Regards to all



Roland
Old 6th June 2006
  #34
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland
I agree with you on most of your points, however I don't know of anybody actively doing these remixes, so by deduction it is quite likely they are being drawn off the original mixes.

http://mixonline.com/recording/inter...ios/index.html
Old 6th June 2006
  #35
Lives for gear
 
joaquin's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndogg
...Joaquin: I have heard that -10 dBfs is a common ceiling for tv broadcast mixing, but in my experience you can often go over that. I would talk to the network your mix will be airing on for their specified limits and go by that.

I don't know exactly how to get things to sound 'best' on the air. There seems to be a complete lack of standards across different networks as to what level goes to air. I may see a commercial I mixed on a few different networks, and it sounds different all the time. It may be what just preceded it on the air, or who did dubs before shipping to the networks... I don't know. I have had mixes go to air with peaks of -6 dBfs regularly. When I was an assistant, I used to see some mixes go out peaking at -4 dBfs, but with L2's and other brickwall digital limiters, that probably shouldn't be happening now.

I should add, I assume we're talking about a reference level of -20 dBfs = 0 VU, right? That's what we use in Toronto. I think I still pay more attention to VU meters than digital.

n
Thanks ndogg! I'm also using a brick wall limiter super fast around-5dbfs, and I listen to the show last weekend and was sounding great! no weird compression attacks or anything. It's true that once the Mix leaves the DAW, it'll go thru many more hands before it hits the air, so I also had experienced different results with different dates or networks...there's only so much you can do My mixing setup is calibrated for -14dbfs = 0VU and I'm pretty sure that the network is at -20dbfs...that would make for the "-10db" concept!! I mean, I always give my Mix to the Video editor, who create the Beta Masters for delivery, with tone at -14dbfs...the network calibrate that tone to -20dbfs and that's 6 more db's of Headroom!!

Quote:
I think I still pay more attention to VU meters than digital.
VU's Rock!!
Thank you ndogg
Old 6th June 2006
  #36
jhg
Lives for gear
 
jhg's Avatar
 

for mix theaters

Quote:
Having mixed a couple Dolby SR-D features (yes, with the Dolby guy coming out and the MO disc and everything), I can tell you that you don't need 4 surround speakers. One of the features we did on a smaller stage with just a pair of surrounds. (no disagreement about your point about a separate TV mix though)
I don't want to come off as a dick, but the second point in Dolbys' "Record/Playback Quality Specifications for Approved Sound Facilities" is:

There must be at least (2) pairs of surround speakers mounted along the sidewalls to create an effective surround “array”. Larger mixing rooms will have several surround pairs that cover listening areas in front of and behind the mix position. In smaller rooms, the first pair of surrounds must be slightly in front of the mix position. The second surround pair should be slightly behind the mix position.

This was revised in 2004, I'm not too familiar with previous spec to point out all of the differences.

Regards,

Joel
Old 6th June 2006
  #37
Lives for gear
 
Jazzpunk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joaquin
Thanks ndogg! I'm also using a brick wall limiter super fast around-5dbfs, and I listen to the show last weekend and was sounding great! no weird compression attacks or anything. It's true that once the Mix leaves the DAW, it'll go thru many more hands before it hits the air, so I also had experienced different results with different dates or networks...there's only so much you can do My mixing setup is calibrated for -14dbfs = 0VU and I'm pretty sure that the network is at -20dbfs...that would make for the "-10db" concept!! I mean, I always give my Mix to the Video editor, who create the Beta Masters for delivery, with tone at -14dbfs...the network calibrate that tone to -20dbfs and that's 6 more db's of Headroom!!
If I were you I would not trust the video editor to create the tone properly. If you know the network is expecting tone to be at -20db than that is what you should deliver. As it stands, you are now relying on the video editor and the network tape machine operator to set the proper levels.

If I am not doing the layback myself, I will deliver the stems bounced from 00:58:30:00-tone included. Tone will be set to -20db and I will instruct whomever is doing the layback to label accordingly. I will then personally check the tapes to make sure the levels are correct before they go out to the client.
Old 6th June 2006
  #38
Gear Maniac
 

Yeah, it's pretty brave to expect that anyone else is going to show your audio the attention to detail that you do. Tone and levels are two fundamental things that ALWAYS get FUBAR if nobody's minding the store. If it's your mix, your name on the credits or your contact info that someone will call and scream if things are wrong, you have an obligation to make sure that it's correct.

Just assuming you can let peak levels slip by isn't a good practice, either. I'd be pretty uneasy about letting a mix out of here with any peaks above -10dBFS. That puts you in no-man's land as far as head end or broadcast "legalizers" are concerned. If you're too hot, it'll be chopped, and not gently.

Why would you

A.) not try and get specs from the outlet you'll be delivering to, so that you can make your mix levels translate properly

B.) not calibrate 0dBFS=-20 - that's what you SHOULD be calibrated to.
Old 6th June 2006
  #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhg
I don't want to come off as a dick, but the second point in Dolbys' "Record/Playback Quality Specifications for Approved Sound Facilities" is:

There must be at least (2) pairs of surround speakers mounted along the sidewalls to create an effective surround “array”. Larger mixing rooms will have several surround pairs that cover listening areas in front of and behind the mix position. In smaller rooms, the first pair of surrounds must be slightly in front of the mix position. The second surround pair should be slightly behind the mix position.

This was revised in 2004, I'm not too familiar with previous spec to point out all of the differences.

Regards,

Joel
You aren't coming off as a dick at all. Dolby's latest lit is certainly relevant, and a surround array and a large enough room are definitely important to proper translation for theatrical mixes.

However, in the real world, some lower budget (comparatively so) features get done on stages primarily built for television, and though you couldn't advertise it as a Dolby approved feature stage, they'll still take your money and come for printmastering.

Then again, maybe they've really tightened the reigns lately and they won't anymore; or maybe it's a "wink, wink" situation when it's a TV stage in a facility with film stages that provide steady work. Either way, the party line is not always set in stone in the real world, but even so, it doesn't negate the value of the spec in the first place. Sure, I would have rather been in the Burt Lancaster theater at Sony or something, but alas, I took the work and cashed the check anways.

And back to the subject, theatrical dubs indeed don't translate well to homes for all of these reasons in the thread. A few places like Mi Casa specialize in repurposing film dubs for DVDs, and do more than just EQ the composite mix, though certainly don't start from scratch. This is one reason you mix to stems.
Old 6th June 2006
  #40
Lives for gear
 
joaquin's Avatar
 

Thanks Jazzpunk and Maprotoolz!
1. I've been working with the video editors for a couple of years, and the system is clear and fixed. If I'm not there, I trust this guys.
2. I always wanted to call the TV station, and talk to the Audio person....my bad...I'll do it soon.
3. My DAW and VU meters are fixed, and I can't calibrate them, at the moment. Any way, like I stated before, if I'm peaking at -5dbfs, after the transfer to analog, and posterior setup in at the station, wich is reading my 0VU tone and calibrating according to it...wouldn't that give me the extra 6db of headroom before mentioned??
Thanks again.
Old 6th June 2006
  #41
Gear Maniac
 

Hello

There are numerous possible causes for poor dialog intelligibility issues in the home, especially when monitoring the LT/RT fold down of a 5.1 Dolby Digital mix.

Here some of the issues that should be considered:

1) Proper calibration in the mix facility: In a calibrated mix environment, -20dBfs (which is equal to +4dBu / 0dB VU / 185 nanoWebers/meter) is equal to 85 dBc (as specified in SMPTE 202M and other SMPTE guidelines). In most movies, the average dialog level is somewhat below this level (typically around 78dBc or -27dBFS). Below is a graphical image which shows typical audio levels for different types of audio material. The number next to the black line is what would be considered the Dialog Normalization Level. In a consumer Dolby Digital decoder, the level of all of the Dolby Digital sources would be automatically adjusted so that all Dialog levels would be constant. This way a consumer doesn't have to continuously adjust the gain setting on his system, to compensate for the various signals.



2) When encoding a soundtrack to Dolby Digital for consumer playback (anything from mono to 5.1 and beyond), the person doing the encoding can specify several factors, such as Dialog normalization level and how the surrounds & center are handled with regard to fold down. If this is not properly checked, then problems can arise during fold down and playback.

3) Of course when you go into a consumer environment, room acoustics, speaker frequency response, playback levels and many other factors get thrown into the mix, and because of the multitude of variability, there is no real way to "plan for the worst case". In fact, I am against making "consumer versions" of film mixes, because I believe it ignores what is capable in many home theater systems (especially at the mid to high-end). And, ultimately it is easier to mix to a "known" standard, as apposed to trying to "plan for the worst case", which is really just an ever changing target.

There are many other factors involved with this issue, especially on the broadcast side of things, but these are some of things that should be considered.

I hope that helps to add a little to this discussion...

Cheers! heh
Old 6th June 2006
  #42
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
Quote:

Maybe I should have said these days, the article mentioned here harks back nearly four years, a lots happened to this industry in that time. i'm not dismissing that some people put out for some of this work, but I think its realistic to assume this is the exception not the rule. Jay mentioned stems, but I suspect 6 discreet channels are the norm, possibly re-eq'd for domestic consumption.

Regards to all


Roland
Old 6th June 2006
  #43
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland
Maybe I should have said these days, the article mentioned here harks back nearly four years, a lots happened to this industry in that time. i'm not dismissing that some people put out for some of this work, but I think its realistic to assume this is the exception not the rule. Jay mentioned stems, but I suspect 6 discreet channels are the norm, possibly re-eq'd for domestic consumption.

Regards to all


Roland
Mi Casa is still around AFAIK. I'd actually suspect that they work up the DVD mixes from the stems, that are backed up on DA88, MO, as files, etc.
Old 6th June 2006
  #44
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAProTulz
Mi Casa is still around AFAIK. I'd actually suspect that they work up the DVD mixes from the stems, that are backed up on DA88, MO, as files, etc.
In addition to them, K.K. Proffitt in Nashville does a bit of this work, though not on the top Hollywood releases that Mi Casa does. Some of the Hollywood picture studios also have rooms that handle this kind of work. Universal's Blue Wave division comes to mind.

I'm not sure how common it is for the studio to spend the extra cash on reworking a DVD soundtrack from the stems, and I'm sure many DVDs are released with the original mix, tweaked or untweaked. However, there is certainly some reworking going on. I guess some big post magazine should do a survey and tell us how much.
Old 6th June 2006
  #45
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joaquin
Hi Mr. Olhsson.
What aspects do you think are key for successful DVD remix? When you mention EQ...what sort of approach are you refering to?...
Both the screen size and the room size will impact whether or not a mix works. (Any mix where you can't understand the dialog doesn't work!)

When home surround sound was first being marketed claims were made that all you needed to do was to eq. a theatrical mix and it should translate properly. This just plain wasn't true however the claim probably did encourage producers to consider home video releases who otherwise might not have.
Old 6th June 2006
  #46
Lives for gear
 
Chucho's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pascal Sijen
Thanks for that. So I'm not imagining it.
Old 7th June 2006
  #47
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chucho
Thanks for that. So I'm not imagining it.
Hello Chucho:

One important feature of Dolby Digital, which I didn't mention, is Dynamic Range Control. This feature, in conjunction with the Dialog Normalization Level, are used to reduce the dynamic range of a signal when the playback system, or consumer, doesn't want full dynamic range audio (small speakers, late at night etc.). This feature is included in most, if not all, consumer Dolby Digital decoders (although depending on the product it can be hidden, or not easy to locate).

There is a nice article about this feature on the Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity website:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...on-6-2000.html

Cheers!
Old 7th June 2006
  #48
Gear Maniac
 
music friend's Avatar
 

..and don't even get me started on the discrepancy in the levels between a tv show and the commercials in between!!
Old 7th June 2006
  #49
Lives for gear
 
Chucho's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by music friend
..and don't even get me started on the discrepancy in the levels between a tv show and the commercials in between!!
it's why God gave us the mute button.
Old 7th June 2006
  #50
Lives for gear
 
Jazzpunk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joaquin
Thanks Jazzpunk and Maprotoolz!
1. I've been working with the video editors for a couple of years, and the system is clear and fixed. If I'm not there, I trust this guys.
2. I always wanted to call the TV station, and talk to the Audio person....my bad...I'll do it soon.
3. My DAW and VU meters are fixed, and I can't calibrate them, at the moment. Any way, like I stated before, if I'm peaking at -5dbfs, after the transfer to analog, and posterior setup in at the station, wich is reading my 0VU tone and calibrating according to it...wouldn't that give me the extra 6db of headroom before mentioned??
Thanks again.
They calibrate buy where your tone is set. The same way you should be calibrating the decks when you are doing your laybacks. There are too many variables in your process to know for sure what levels your shows are airing at.

Bottom line is you should be delivering your dubs with tone set at -20db since you know that is what they are expecting. Your tapes should be labeled correctly so they know what level your tone is at. If you feel you need 6db of headroom (I really don't know why you would want that as I guarantee the commercials airing during your shows will be much louder...ugh!) you should be acheiving this through your mix not hoping it will happen through some lack of communication with the network!

Now shape up...just kiddin'
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
gsilbers / Post Production forum
12
nukmusic / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music and Location Recording
5
hammer / So much gear, so little time
5

Forum Jump
Forum Jump