The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Mixing a short film in a single pass...
Old 17th September 2011
  #31
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezahp View Post
It's an interesting question if this:

Stanley Kubrick's "Barry Lyndon" [Opening Scene] - YouTube

Or this:

Bande à part dance - YouTube

would be "better" with a modern soundtrack?
How about this:

No country for old men - Intro voice over - YouTube

Or this:

Pulp Fiction - Dancing Scene [HD] - YouTube
Old 17th September 2011
  #32
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
Nonsense.
The quality of even TV mixes is far beyond what it was even 20 years ago.
Our clients expect feature quality mixes in 2 days for a 42 minute show.

When i listen to old movies and tv shows, a lot of them sound like crap.
Midrangy and honky, and no depth.
Especially tv.
Hell, i see oscar winning movies from back then, that sound like crap by todays standards.

So please, spare me the nostalgia trip.
tv mixes now are terrible

they have the music way over the dialog
sfx way over everythign
you cant hear the words
or know what is going on anymore
they are mixing for the mixers egos
not for the audience enjoyment
Old 17th September 2011
  #33
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
tv mixes now are terrible

they have the music way over the dialog
sfx way over everythign
you cant hear the words
or know what is going on anymore
they are mixing for the mixers egos
not for the audience enjoyment
You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you.
We mix for the people sitting behind us. And in most cases, they choose dialog over music. You are probably listening to the 2 track that's being folded down incorrectly by the broadcasters. Which is a problem.
Old 17th September 2011
  #34
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
tv mixes now are terrible

they have the music way over the dialog
sfx way over everythign
you cant hear the words
or know what is going on anymore
they are mixing for the mixers egos
not for the audience enjoyment
Actually, the number one complaint I hear about TV mixes, made by me and others, is what happens to the music and SFX when the show is played on a lofi system (laptop, phone, crappy TV etc), ie, it is diminished in power and presence. The dialog is always fine--we are mandated by network specs to make it very even and present to a specific measured level range all the time. The complaints I hear about inaudible dialog and dynamic range anymore come from patrons of movie theatres, where the levels and dynamic range are whatever the director wants (which is often variations on LOUD).

phil p
Old 18th September 2011
  #35
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
Actually, the number one complaint I hear about TV mixes, made by me and others, is what happens to the music and SFX when the show is played on a lofi system (laptop, phone, crappy TV etc), ie, it is diminished in power and presence. The dialog is always fine--we are mandated by network specs to make it very even and present to a specific measured level range all the time. The complaints I hear about inaudible dialog and dynamic range anymore come from patrons of movie theatres, where the levels and dynamic range are whatever the director wants (which is often variations on LOUD).

phil p
FWIW, I was watching TV with my grandmother and she's always complaining she can't hear the dialogue over the music & sfx, even though I think it all sounds fine.

For the OP, I've found the convenience of working in the box trumps any sonic quality from using a large cantankerous analogue console, if you're looking for an 'authentic vintage analogue console' sound, there are plenty of plugins that emulate it that are close enough to work with.

Thinking of which, anyone used HEAT on video/film/tv mixes?
Old 18th September 2011
  #36
Gear Addict
 
Lipflap's Avatar
 

Have you considered doing this Damn the Torpedoes mix as performance art? Set yourself up in a club. Make sure you get a cut of the door. Set up for bets: Will you make it through the mix? Will you choke, and if so, at what point? Several mixers can compete in this daredevil sport. The crowd can assess the mix, and using an applause-o-meter, your mix can scientifically be compared with others. It’s probably better money than the mix itself will get you.

Good luck.
Old 18th September 2011
  #37
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by philper
Actually, the number one complaint I hear about TV mixes, made by me and others, is what happens to the music and SFX when the show is played on a lofi system (laptop, phone, crappy TV etc), ie, it is diminished in power and presence. The dialog is always fine--we are mandated by network specs to make it very even and present to a specific measured level range all the time. The complaints I hear about inaudible dialog and dynamic range anymore come from patrons of movie theatres, where the levels and dynamic range are whatever the director wants (which is often variations on LOUD).

phil p



Interesting to read that as it's certainly not the case in the UK:

BBC - About the BBC: Is the background music too loud?


Maybe QC is more rigorous in the US or maybe the mixers are just better

(some of the TV people over here would struggle to mix sugar into their coffee heh)

To its credit the BBC is trying to address this issue:

BBC - College of Production - Television Skills: Clear Sound: best practice tips

I always keep these tips in mind when I'm doing sound.
Old 18th September 2011
  #38
Lives for gear
 
Kuba_Pietrzak's Avatar
 

Following this discussion, I come to the point, that this is really big misunderstanding about differences between doing sound to the picture vs music production.

In many cases, music instruments which are recorded these days sound "too clean", so music producers developed many methods to add "life" to those tracks during the mix.

In tv/movie productions things seem to be just opposite: the production tracks in many cases sound so terrible (and "full of life": people talking during the take, dolly movements, bad acoustics, lamps whining, cloth rustle, power generator running, etc. etc.), that we just need to make those tracks just usable.

Now, if it is already done, you can make a decision, what kind of "feel" you need in the movie. And I repeat, what I wrote a few days ago: it is really possible to create a specific kind of sound with modern Digital Audio Workstations or digital board.

But there is also another important thing to remember: it is not only about the equipment, which was used in a specific time, but also "the content", which is acting for example.


best,
Kuba
Old 18th September 2011
  #39
At the IBC I went to see Fraunhofer after I read about their Wimbledon experiment (mentioned on Gearslutz as well I think):
BBC Audio Experiment at Wimbledon – Fraunhofer Institute for Integrated Circuits

They had a survey on the internet where they asked users to fill out their preferred commentary level within the mix. One could choose from -3 to +3, with 0 being the broadcast mix, -3 less commentary and +3 more commentary
Interesting to note: the 2 peaks in the selection were -1 (people with good HiFi systems) and +2 (the hearing impaired).

This experiment was an audio only (radio) broadcast over the internet.

Greetings,
Thierry
Old 18th September 2011
  #40
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ezahp View Post
Maybe QC is more rigorous in the US or maybe the mixers are just better

(some of the TV people over here would struggle to mix sugar into their coffee heh)
I really like the mix style of the big BBC shows where the music and FX are nice and loud in the mix but occasionally whomever is mixing gets things slightly wrong. (From my perspective that is). For instance the first episode of "World's most dangerous roads" had quite a few sections of dialogues where a badly placed (or slipped) Lavelier mic was not sufficiently corrected and sounded dull in a distracting way. (I could still understand what was being said but it was distracting me because of my professional reflexes to want to grab an EQ to add some top end! :-).

More importantly, in both episodes I saw (Alaska and Nepal) the narrator has a tendency of starting his sentences loud and then losing energy as he progresses. That is fine in theory but his level was dipping dangerously low into the music and background noise by the end of many of his sentences. If it was my mix I would be riding the VO fader to keep the sentences more level.

I personally could understand all the narrative but it was distracting me from the content and I am sure my old dad would have trouble with this show. I have old studio monitors hooked up to my TV so the top-end frequency response is as one would expect. I'm sure some people with crappy dull sound on their TVs would also have problems with this.

I am probably making things sound worse then they are. The vast majority of the public probably wouldn't notice and wouldn't be distracted by this kind of thing...

On a general note, I agree with Phil about the perceived difference in mix balance on smaller, non full range speakers. When one of my clients asks whether the music or FX or whatever is too loud, I switch the monitoring to the TV or smaller speakers (depending on what is available) and we check to see if everything is still intelligible. The music always sounds much lower relative to the dialogue compared to full range speakers.

In my experience it takes more time to get the balance right if you want to do a full sounding mix. When strapped for time, mixing the music and FX quite softly is safer and means you can work faster...

Alistair
Old 18th September 2011
  #41
Lives for gear
 
pethenis's Avatar
 

It so depends on age, listening environment, and listening volume. How do people watch TV? Personally, I'm always suprised by how loud other people have their TV turned up. When I watch, I like to be able to do other stuff as well, so it's quite low. I think I mix that way too, music and fx loud when there's room (and it's appropriate), otherwise dialog rules. I hate mixing where music/fx constantly fight with the dialog and only do this when asked.

I do check on my Avantones and plasma, but not for finding out how loud I can push the music against the dialog. (I only do that for certain commercials).
And yes, I do find that when watching my shows broadcasted, other programs can sound more "pushed" in comparison, but in general these are not the kind of shows I prefer to watch.

Agecheck: 45 (ough), engineering for last 20 of them and I never had the urge
to hook up some speakers to my home TV-set, let alone a surround "home cinema set".
Old 18th September 2011
  #42
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThisIsSka View Post
FWIW, I was watching TV with my grandmother and she's always complaining she can't hear the dialogue over the music & sfx, even though I think it all sounds fine.

For the OP, I've found the convenience of working in the box trumps any sonic quality from using a large cantankerous analogue console, if you're looking for an 'authentic vintage analogue console' sound, there are plenty of plugins that emulate it that are close enough to work with.

Thinking of which, anyone used HEAT on video/film/tv mixes?
With all due respect your grandmother's hearing is very likely another issue--one that relates the resolving power of her whole auditory system at her stage in life. It not only relates to levels but what the nature of the BG sounds are and how well she can see the actors who are speaking. Put somewhat baldly--we don't print all books in large-print type and we don't do all mixes so that they will work for hearing-impaired people. In a USA network mix done to spec that has passed QC if the dialog still can't be understood then there is a problem that mixing can't address: thick accents, bad dialog sound or choice of instruments and the writing of the music.

phil p
Old 18th September 2011
  #43
Lives for gear
 
Henchman's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
With all due respect your grandmother's hearing is very likely another issue--one that relates the resolving power of her whole auditory system at her stage in life. It not only relates to levels but what the nature of the BG sounds are and how well she can see the actors who are speaking. Put somewhat baldly--we don't print all books in large-print type and we don't do all mixes so that they will work for hearing-impaired people. In a USA network mix done to spec that has passed QC if the dialog still can't be understood then there is a problem that mixing can't address: thick accents, bad dialog sound or choice of instruments and the writing of the music.

phil p
And unlike music, we are not mixing for the lowest common denominator anymore.
If people want to use the crappy tv speakers, that's their problem.
Old 18th September 2011
  #44
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pethenis View Post
And yes, I do find that when watching my shows broadcasted, other programs can sound more "pushed" in comparison, but in general these are not the kind of shows I prefer to watch.
Well if you have nothing better to do and are near a tv, switch to BBC2 and tell me what you think. The next episode of the show I mentioned is airing now. :-)


Alistair
Old 19th September 2011
  #45
Lives for gear
 
Jfriah's Avatar
 

Wow did this thread explode over this topic!
Nice!

It's also gone in interesting tech directions.




p.s. he did say he's a producer of the project, folks. Producer pays for the mix

Old 19th September 2011
  #46
Lives for gear
 
minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jfriah View Post
p.s. he did say he's a producer of the project, folks. Producer pays for the mix

He did say that, and I think most people missed it. However, the only qualified person in this thread to give an actual answer and sound advice gave it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Fleischman View Post
That's just crazy talk. Take it from one who knows.

If you decide to do it, I hope it provides a good learning experience. And limit yourself to 10 tracks, total.
I am not qualified to carry Mr. Fleischman's lunch, but I think I would be wise to take what he says as truth. (Though I am qualified to make a smart ass remark time and again.)
Old 19th September 2011
  #47
Lives for gear
 
Jfriah's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldeanalogueguy View Post
tv mixes now are terrible

they have the music way over the dialog
sfx way over everythign
you cant hear the words
or know what is going on anymore
they are mixing for the mixers egos
not for the audience enjoyment
Yeah, sorry. I take offense to this statement, as a tv mixer.

I won't hurl insults; will only say my ego is not what is being mixed for, sir.

I don't mix them for me because I know where that ends up.

And, how many audience members say they watch a show to hear the sound mix for enjoyment?

Jeff
Old 19th September 2011
  #48
Lives for gear
 
Jfriah's Avatar
 

Tom -- truly!

But also, I'm sickly curious to hear if he goes through with that style / tech of a mix! All the power to him!

Jeff
Old 19th September 2011
  #49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lipflap View Post
Have you considered doing this Damn the Torpedoes mix as performance art? Set yourself up in a club. Make sure you get a cut of the door. Set up for bets: Will you make it through the mix? Will you choke, and if so, at what point? Several mixers can compete in this daredevil sport. The crowd can assess the mix, and using an applause-o-meter, your mix can scientifically be compared with others. It’s probably better money than the mix itself will get you.

Good luck.
This is just too good to pass up. Kind of like a Thunderdome of film mixing.
Old 23rd September 2011
  #50
Lives for gear
 
Jfriah's Avatar
 

Haha, oh my... and many of us thought we've been in Thunderdome already! Hah, that's a great idea.

heh

Jeff
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump