The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Cutting ADR: poll (No...Really this time!) Dynamics Plugins
View Poll Results: When cutting ADR on tight timeframes, I prefer to:
Cut manually ('cause it probably sounds better)
25 Votes - 59.52%
Use VocAlign as a go-to
5 Votes - 11.90%
Use Elastic Audio as a go-to
9 Votes - 21.43%
Other: please specify
5 Votes - 11.90%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

Old 22nd December 2010
  #1
Lives for gear
 
Jfriah's Avatar
 

Cutting ADR: poll (No...Really this time!)

MOD--please delete other two 'Cutting ADR' threads. Problems with poll posting




Given that most projects are always up against the wall for time, today's poll is:

Do you prefer to cut manually, use VocAlign, use Elastic Audio, or other?

(of course, for those that don't know [chuckle], cutting manually is slicing and cutting and time-stretching with the trimmer tool, etc. Definitely a lost art.)


After having a bunch of VocAlign stuff come in sounding quite muffled, just wondering how many folks are cutting today.


(and YES, 'other' can/will include "all of the above!" hahaha)


Jeff
Old 22nd December 2010
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Jfriah's Avatar
 

And, yeah, given the TIME factor, I find that using software/plugins for certain things is fine but cutting manually lets YOU decide where sync is, etc.

Plus, I'm noticing that VocAlign can sure appear to cut high-freq from your ADR...

Ah, if I could save time in a bottle...

(I'd get drunk)

Jeff
Old 22nd December 2010
  #3
Gear Maniac
 
jimlongo's Avatar
 

Where's the selection for "all of the above"

I use Vocalign unless I can hear it. Usually cut first then vocalign smaller sections.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Jfriah's Avatar
 

Interestingly, because I looked into why/how the VocAlign stuff was 'sounding poopy' (good technical term there), I found out that earlier versions of VocAlign somehow magically combine tracks if you're, say, cutting as a stereo ADR track with boom/lav... resulting in audio that even when split out sounds...the same. And bad.


Having to have the editor recut individual boom or lav regions instead of processing as a stereo.


Jeff
Old 23rd December 2010
  #5
Lives for gear
 
cebolao's Avatar
 

funny, just spent the whole day cutting ADR and bam! this thread


first i do an obvious nudge, to find the best possible sync

then i use MELODYNE. it's a little bit time consuming, because you have to LOAD the sound into the plugin and then print it back, but it's a great tool.

unless the artifacts appear it works miracles. you can really control the sync, move specific syllables and not think about crossfades etc. it does all the job for you. however, when artifacts appear they are horrible. sometines you can do quite dramatic changes with no artifacts, sometimes a tine movement creates glitch or robot voice.

tip: switch the algorithm to "rhytmic" instead of "melodic"


i tried elastic audio, but the artifacts appear much faster than in melodyne.
Old 23rd December 2010
  #6
Lives for gear
 
cebolao's Avatar
 

and there's absolutley no problem with processing stereo file - with boom on left and lav on right channel

Old 24th December 2010
  #7
Lives for gear
 
Jfriah's Avatar
 

VocAlign Project was used, which apparently doesn't like to see multiple channels being looked at and somewhat-combines them aurally.
tutt

Now we know. VocAlign Pro new version does not have that problem. It handles multiple channels.

Jeff
Old 24th December 2010
  #8
Gear Addict
 
Lipflap's Avatar
 

A little bit of everthing

Usually I use the classic techniques first (select well and cut, choose alts for problem words or sections, cut some more, locally squeeze and stretch, cut more,etc.), but I will often use VocAlign as a final "pressing" to get that "freshly starched shirt look." Abusing VocAlign is no better than abusing any other tool, but I find it really helpful as a final tweak.
Old 24th December 2010
  #9
I had a conversation in the 90s with the developer of Vocalign, who came from the DAR workstation. I was testing Vocalign in a foreign dub situation using the the guide English track to align the Flemish version. Very bad idea :-) But even when using Vocalign to align ADR in the same language as the original recording, I found that I could do a much better job cutting and timestretching myself on an AudioVision than, with Vocalign (on a PT system). I never quite liked what it did, though in 2% of the cases it helped. Maybe things have progressed now, but I don't do much dialog cutting anymore (only in a mix situation to solve things). So I replied manual cutting to the poll, because I believe in cutting different takes and syllables first and only then go to timestretch or very occasional (once every 5 years :-) Vocalign.

Don't want to bash SynchroArts here, Titan is a Great program! ;-)

Greetings,

Thierry
Old 26th December 2010
  #10
This is the usual procedure for me (in that order):

1. taunt talent until he/ she gets it right
2. manually edit anything that still needs editing
3. stretch/compress when necessary (used sparingly)
4. if the line is still off a little, try Vocalign (rarely happens)
5. If 4. doesn't work or produces too many artifacts go back to 2.
6. if the line still looks bad after a few editing attempts it becomes a re-take (avoid!)

Most of the time we work with a sync editor who does all the taunting an subsequent editing. That editor has a workspace with a monitor and headphones in the recording room, close to the talent.
Old 29th December 2010
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Jfriah's Avatar
 

Haha, that's great Chris. I like option #1.
It's a fine line when instructing the talent to get another take or two out of them. Sometimes you're lucky to get an actor who wants to do it till it is right. Other times...

And thanks for chiming in, John. Appreciated. Going to try to get into/through your book 'on some downtime' in March. Never hurts to 'go back to school!'

Looks like cutting manually is the leader so far, which I figured it would be.

Thanks for all the replies.
Jeff
Old 30th December 2010
  #12
I know it sounds a bit harsh, but actually it's a whole different ballgame here in Germany. We have a lot of studios that do nothing but foreign language dubbing and there are a lot of pro voice-actors who do little else and are used to the procedure. That makes it really tough on regular actors who just have to ADR a few lines in an original production because they are expected to perform at almost the same level. You usually take more time with regular actors, but they get taunted nonetheless and if they can`t handle it, they only look foolish and unprofessional. That even goes for the big stars.
I have seen the egos of many actors get slaughtered in the recording room.heh
Old 30th December 2010
  #13
Lives for gear
 
minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lipflap View Post
Usually I use the classic techniques first (select well and cut, choose alts for problem words or sections, cut some more, locally squeeze and stretch, cut more,etc.), but I will often use VocAlign as a final "pressing" to get that "freshly starched shirt look." Abusing VocAlign is no better than abusing any other tool, but I find it really helpful as a final tweak.
As far as I am concerned, the discussion ends with the above.

I never got VocAlign to sound better than manual, except in tiny ways. I have read that VocAlign Pro is an improvement.

One of the hardest parts of ADR is getting a Director who says they hate ADR to actually PAY ATTENTION during the session. Too many times, they say a take is fine and want to move on, when it is not even close to the right timing, and the performance is clearly not engaged. No wonder they hate ADR......
Old 30th December 2010
  #14
Lives for gear
 
Fajita's Avatar
use whatever sounds best and gets the job done fastest. All of the above.
Old 30th December 2010
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Jfriah's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by minister View Post
As far as I am concerned, the discussion ends with the above....
One of the hardest parts of ADR is getting a Director who says they hate ADR to actually PAY ATTENTION during the session. Too many times, they say a take is fine and want to move on, when it is not even close to the right timing, and the performance is clearly not engaged. No wonder they hate ADR......
Oh man,
(emoticon of picture of nail getting hit on head)

Nice one, Minister!

Two things: after a couple gruelling days of ADR, there was one climactic section of yelling and screaming and I look over at said Director after silence after the take. He was honestly just staring straight ahead and I had to say "Good? No?" He laughed and said "I totally missed that one. Zoned out. Hard to focus in this section."

And then another who is insisting on having all takes ready to go in the MIX in case he changes his mind (which he does, often).
tutt

Jeff
Old 30th December 2010
  #16
Gear Addict
 

I think each situation requires a different approach. Are you using pro's/seasoned actors? Are they kids or adults?
A lot of times, right after the take, I will do some minor cutting and nudging cause I already know what the Dir/Prod is thinking and wanting and other times it's take the first of this take and the second of that take. and try to get it in the %95 sync. Since at that point I know later in edit I can use vocalign or a bit more slicing and dicing. Usually with kids 8-14 years, if they don't get the adr beeps timing or are too nervious, etc. I'll use the good old school looping, and just record loop over and over till I feel we have a good take (this can work for adults too). Since this is how it was done back in the day before DAWS.

The only time I had some serious issues, was when I had an ADR session with Jan-Michael Vincent back in the late 90's. It was quite interesting (for those of you who don't know him, he was the main character in Airwolf) came in for a session, lets just say he was a bit more than buzzed and after the 3 beeps, there was another 3-4 second delay till he said his lines. I had to learn and pull all kinds of tricks out of my sleeves for the session...
Lots of slicing, dicing, looping, and takes...... Lots..
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Jfriah / Post Production forum
5
Jfriah / Post Production forum
1
DynaForte / Post Production forum
4
Barney1981 / Music Computers
21
dangeorge6 / So much gear, so little time
17

Forum Jump
Forum Jump