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Help with Dialnorm and Commercial Audio Levels! Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 15th February 2010
  #1
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Help with Dialnorm and Commercial Audio Levels!

This is the first time I have produced and edited together a spot for a local business and they want to broadcast it on our local cable stations. I was sent an email from the broadcaster specifying their standards and came across this section:

"Note: Voiceover should not be present before 5 frames in and after 5 frames out. Spot file audio levels should have an AC3 dailnorm of -24 or analog at -12 dB."

I've been reading up on dialnorm, and it is a bit confusing. From what I understand there are only a few things that can actually measure this. The LM100 and Dolby's metering plugin for ProTools, neither of which I can use / afford (I am currently using FCP and Cubase as my mixing and editing platforms). The commercial only has music (classical) for the audio track. Also, what is the analog -12dB they speak of? Is that dBFS or VU?

Basically, given my circumstances, what is the best way to achieve a correct level for local broadcast?

Thank you.
Old 15th February 2010
  #2
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The main thing to understand about dialnorm values is that it must be measured in a specific way. We are not talking about VU or PPM, but measuring dialog average levels with an A-weighted long-term average meter (LAeq).

I'm not sure about Cubase, but in ProTools you can get a quite close reading using the Phasescope or Surroundscope plugin, using the LEQA algorithm and setting it to measure over 10 seconds. Have a look at your metering plugins in Cubase and see if you see any option of measuring with this LEQA algorithm.

The problem with Dolby's use of dialnorm is that it is quite subjective.
Proper dialnorm measurement requires choosing a suitable portion of dialog within the program. For music shows, Dolby advises "When setting the [dialnorm] parameter for such content, it is useful to compare the program to the level of other programs. The goal is to allow the consumer to switch to your program without having to adjust the volume control.

So if you don't have access to any plugin that will measure in LEQA, ask anyone with protools to do it with Phasescope as you will get a very close estimation to the dialnorm with less than a decibel off!


Will you be encoding the AC3 as well? Because if you set the dialnorm value to -24 in the encoding program, it will be reduced by 7dB when played through a Dolby decoder at the station or the viewer's home.

They probably want you to mix so that your dialnorm value measured with the LEQA algorithm is at 24. Then they can set the dialnorm value to -31 and it will be louder than the standard theatrical mixes mixed to approx -31.


Old 15th February 2010
  #3
dBFS would indicate digital, so 12db is probably actually dBu - but you would need to know what they calibrate to in order to line that up to a digital value that isn't dialnorm...
Here in the UK it's 0=-18dBFS - it's -20 in North America in most cases if I'm not mistaken (I might be) but as it's a local station I suppose you never know. Ask 'em...

Phasescope is indeed pretty close - use that, and if it's a short spot, drop me a PM and if you're happy to upload a WAV somewhere I'll measure it for you with Media Meter to see how close you are if you like.
Old 16th February 2010
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sword in Hand View Post
The commercial only has music (classical) for the audio track. Also, what is the analog -12dB they speak of? Is that dBFS or VU?
I assume -12 means absolute peak, but sometimes specs say "average peak at -12" I would get clarification on that.

Since the spot has no Dialog, there's no need to explain Dialnorm. You will not have a reading.

All you need is a peak limiter (like an L1) set at the "don't go over this number" which is usually -10, but may be -12 in this case.
Old 16th February 2010
  #5
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Taylor View Post
Since the spot has no Dialog, there's no need to explain Dialnorm. You will not have a reading.
Oops, I skimmed past that part on my initial reading...!

Indeed Dialnorm won't read/won't be correct if it does ... so clarify the other spec and go with that.
Old 16th February 2010
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Taylor View Post
Since the spot has no Dialog, there's no need to explain Dialnorm. You will not have a reading.

This isn't correct. Dialnorm existed before the "Dialogue Intelligence" algorithm. If you were to use an LM100, you would just turn off "Dialogue Intelligence" to get the dialnorm of material without dialogue.

Dialnorm is just the averaged perceived loudness over the course of the program. Dolby later refined their measurement method with the "Dialogue Intelligence" algorithm, but every program, with dialogue or not, has a perceived loudness.

You can use Audioleak to find the A-weighted Leq. This will be your dialnorm.


-Richard
Old 16th February 2010
  #7
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Thank you all for chiming in and so quickly, I love this forum. I will definitely check out Audioleak. So Dialnorm is essentially an averaged level over a long period of time, biased toward dialogue? Does the Waves PAZ meter have an LAeq setting? Or something that will be close / work?

Basically, I would run my audio through a meter with LAeq and it would give me an average number, that number would be my dialnorm, correct? If so, then I'm looking for an average, according to my specs, of -24 right? The -12 must be for a brickwall limiter, like Dallas mentioned. In the end I want to be technically accurate, and I would like to have the commercial be in the same average loudness as any national spot. I always notice local commercials being way too loud or way too quiet, that always bugs me.

Well let me know if I'm on the right track.

Thanks again.
Old 16th February 2010
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sword in Hand View Post
Thank you all for chiming in and so quickly, I love this forum. I will definitely check out Audioleak. So Dialnorm is essentially an averaged level over a long period of time, biased toward dialogue?
Almost. The bias towards dialogue didn't become a factor until Dolby created "Dialogue Intelligence". That Algorithm essentially only uses portions of the program with dialogue in its running average of loudness. The idea is that since humans are most attuned to speech, the average dialogue level is what should be focused on. Some network's specs refer to a Dialnorm value with "Dialogue Intelligence" since most TV programming has dialogue. A program without dialogue can still be measured to have a Dialnorm value, but not with the "Dialogue Intelligence" setting on the LM100.

Quote:
Does the Waves PAZ meter have an LAeq setting? Or something that will be close / work?

Basically, I would run my audio through a meter with LAeq and it would give me an average number, that number would be my dialnorm, correct? If so, then I'm looking for an average, according to my specs, of -24 right? The -12 must be for a brickwall limiter, like Dallas mentioned. In the end I want to be technically accurate, and I would like to have the commercial be in the same average loudness as any national spot. I always notice local commercials being way too loud or way too quiet, that always bugs me.

Well let me know if I'm on the right track.

Thanks again.
I don't know about the PAZ but otherwise you have it right. Be aware that few people pay attention to the specs yet with regards to commercials. I just had a client tell me that their spot sounded low compared to the surrounding spots and I had mixed this spot to -23.

I think most commercials are in the -22 to -18 range, but that's just a guess.

-R
Old 17th February 2010
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhumphries View Post
Almost. The bias towards dialogue didn't become a factor until Dolby created "Dialogue Intelligence". That Algorithm essentially only uses portions of the program with dialogue in its running average of loudness. The idea is that since humans are most attuned to speech, the average dialogue level is what should be focused on. Some network's specs refer to a Dialnorm value with "Dialogue Intelligence" since most TV programming has dialogue. A program without dialogue can still be measured to have a Dialnorm value, but not with the "Dialogue Intelligence" setting on the LM100.

I don't know about the PAZ but otherwise you have it right. Be aware that few people pay attention to the specs yet with regards to commercials. I just had a client tell me that their spot sounded low compared to the surrounding spots and I had mixed this spot to -23.

I think most commercials are in the -22 to -18 range, but that's just a guess.

-R
thank you for all of the info.
Old 17th February 2010
  #10
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Why would they ask for a specific dialnorm value without knowing the measured levels of your spot in the first place?

Dialnorm can only attenuate. If they're asking you to encode your mix with dialnorm set to -24, then your mix will be attenuated by 7dB. This is arbitrary, if they don't know your mix levels to begin with.

Hmm...

-Ben B
Old 17th February 2010
  #11
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Quote:
Why would they ask for a specific dialnorm value without knowing the measured levels of your spot in the first place?

Dialnorm can only attenuate. If they're asking you to encode your mix with dialnorm set to -24, then your mix will be attenuated by 7dB. This is arbitrary, if they don't know your mix levels to begin with.

Hmm...

-Ben B
Not sure I follow. Isn't Dialnorm supposed to be a standard for average sound output level? If the Dialnorm is -24 then, assuming the sound is fairly consistent (mine is just music), one could know their soundtrack was within spec, right? Or are you saying that a Dialnorm of -24 seems low for a TV Spot? Maybe that's were the -12dB Analog comes in, but that part is confusing as well.

The specs were given to me by the local cable provider. I will definitely be calling them to clarify. The sheet seems poorly written, and has a lot of "conflicting" data, in my opinion. If you read the quote on my original post you'll see that dialnorm was spelled "dailnorm". Obviously a typo, but that leads me to believe that there could be bad technical specifications, or at least conflicting ones.
Old 17th February 2010
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben B View Post
Why would they ask for a specific dialnorm value without knowing the measured levels of your spot in the first place?

Dialnorm can only attenuate. If they're asking you to encode your mix with dialnorm set to -24, then your mix will be attenuated by 7dB. This is arbitrary, if they don't know your mix levels to begin with.

Hmm...

-Ben B
Because 90% of all Broadcasters use it incorrectly! Yes, the purpose of Dialnorm IS to help "even" out loudness changes, although measurement of "loud" is difficult at best... So theoretically a DialNorm of -24 WOULD be attenuated by 7dB in relation to one at -31 resulting in a theoretically equal volume. But most broadcasters don't work this way... instead they insist you hit a given DialNorm value. Backwards, but just another set of guidelines we learn to work to...

To the OP... be sure to check out the ATSC Guidelines here

BTW... CBC/SRC here in Canada, does NOT use the "Dialog Intelligence" mode on it's DialNorm measurements
Old 17th February 2010
  #13
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Possibly, they are asking you to mix to a "dialnorm" level of -24 but not setting that as a dialnorm value on the ac3.

Basically, you create mix so that when you measure the average dialogue level with a Dolby Meter or similar LEQA algorithm, it comes up to -24. This is a very loud mix, so when encoding the AC3, if you "cheat" the metadata and say it has a dialnorm level of -31, no attenuation is applied and their advert is loud, just as advertisers like it. Ofcourse this defies the whole point of using dialnorm but they don't care. They just want it to be loud.

Could be wrong but thats how I think it is in this case. In a properly calibrated room and system, an analogue peak average of -20dBFS is what I mix my averge dialogue to for a theatrical mix. When measured for dialnorm this comes up exactly at -31 or -32. So for a loud commercial, I guess the analogue -12 sounds about right and would probably come up as -24 when measured for "dialnorm" values.
Old 17th February 2010
  #14
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[QUOTE=Sword in Hand;5116372]Not sure I follow. Isn't Dialnorm supposed to be a standard for average sound output level? If the Dialnorm is -24 then, assuming the sound is fairly consistent (mine is just music), one could know their soundtrack was within spec, right? Or are you saying that a Dialnorm of -24 seems low for a TV Spot? Maybe that's were the -12dB Analog comes in, but that part is confusing as well./QUOTE]

Dialnorm is exactly a standard for average sound output level. This output Leq-A level is, for movies, -31 theatrical, and -27 DVD. These numbers are what the playback device aims for.
Now with the metadata you tell the playback system the Leq-A level of your mix. So if your metadata say the mix is at -24, the DVD player will assume it is 3 dB louder than average, and it will attenuate the output by (-)3 dB to get the intended (or target) -27. If your metadata say it's -36, the player will raise the volume accordingly.

What the company probably wants is a mix with an Leq-A level of -24. They seem to just have mixed up Leq-A and Dialnorm.

Dialnorm is a standard system to get mixes with different loudnesses to sound equally loud on a playback system.
Leq-A is a way to measure a mix's loudness. You need to measure your Leq-A to be able to use Dialnorm - but you don't need Dialnorm to measure Leq-A.
Old 17th February 2010
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkautzsch View Post
If your metadata say it's -36, the player will raise the volume accordingly.

What the company probably wants is a mix with an Leq-A level of -24. They seem to just have mixed up Leq-A and Dialnorm.

Dialnorm is a standard system to get mixes with different loudnesses to sound equally loud on a playback system.
Leq-A is a way to measure a mix's loudness. You need to measure your Leq-A to be able to use Dialnorm - but you don't need Dialnorm to measure Leq-A.
I believe you're correct when you say that they're mixing up the terms LEQ(A) and dialnorm. However, I've never seen an encoder that can be set lower than -31, and dialnorm isn't ever meant to "boost" mix levels.

-Ben B
Old 17th February 2010
  #16
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I see a lot of use of LeqA on this thread. Just for clarification all of the current spec sheets I have are asking for measurement using the LKFS algorithm.
Old 17th February 2010
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben B View Post
Why would they ask for a specific dialnorm value without knowing the measured levels of your spot in the first place?

Dialnorm can only attenuate. If they're asking you to encode your mix with dialnorm set to -24, then your mix will be attenuated by 7dB. This is arbitrary, if they don't know your mix levels to begin with.

Hmm...

-Ben B
To add to what Sonsey said;


There are some broadcasters who are not able to keep the metadata throughout the whole signal chain. Maybe they aren't running a digitally from end to end, or whatever. By specifying a Dialnorm value for the programming to hit you can be assured that all of the programs will air at the same volume (if everyone plays by the rules.)

If the metadata is kept throughout the chain, then I would agree that it is a backwards use of Dialnorm.

-R
Old 18th February 2010
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I mix with an LM100 and the Dolby Universal Remote software. I can see short term with Dialog Intelligence ON and Long term with it off, at the same time. It's easier to hit the -24 that stations are looking for.

however, working at discovery, I have been using the LM100 for over 3 years, as we began to force outside places to deliver with dialnorm specs, so I'm kinda used to hitting the numbers.
Old 18th February 2010
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Just to clarify a little bit. The final video and audio is going to be a compressed .mov file, with an uncompressed PCM audio stream. Isn't dialnorm metadata only used / allowed in ac3 files? If I send them a video file with a PCM audio stream, with a certain audio level (let's say limited to -12dBFS), wouldn't the broadcast just output that level, completely disregarding any dialnorm metadata? Again, the spec sheet doesn't seem to be written with great technical accuracy.

What would happen if I sent them a commercial spot limited to 0dBFS? Obviously, they could reject it, but say they didn't, what then? Would they just turn it down, or would it be really loud? I just want to get my spot as competitive as possible with any other commercial (I don't see why this couldn't be possible, with the right settings). Surely all I need to do is brick wall limit to some "dBFS", right? The question is what number is it (-12, -6, etc.)? The last thing I want is a quite commercial... or a really loud one.

Thanks for all of this info, really informative.
Old 18th February 2010
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathand View Post
I see a lot of use of LeqA on this thread. Just for clarification all of the current spec sheets I have are asking for measurement using the LKFS algorithm.
You're talking about the new ITU-R BS.1770-1 measurement, yes?

&e
Old 18th February 2010
  #21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sword in Hand View Post
Just to clarify a little bit. The final video and audio is going to be a compressed .mov file, with an uncompressed PCM audio stream. Isn't dialnorm metadata only used / allowed in ac3 files? If I send them a video file with a PCM audio stream, with a certain audio level (let's say limited to -12dBFS), wouldn't the broadcast just output that level, completely disregarding any dialnorm metadata? Again, the spec sheet doesn't seem to be written with great technical accuracy.
The metadata is one thing but they still may require it meet a certain dialnorm measurement even if they will be disregarding the metadata, which they will - as has been touched on, broadcasters are using dialnorm backwards. Instead of you telling them your dialnorm level and them attenuating at the broadcast level, they're just making everyone hit a level that they say is correct, so the metadata is ignored anyway.

Quote:
What would happen if I sent them a commercial spot limited to 0dBFS? Obviously, they could reject it, but say they didn't, what then? Would they just turn it down, or would it be really loud? I just want to get my spot as competitive as possible with any other commercial (I don't see why this couldn't be possible, with the right settings). Surely all I need to do is brick wall limit to some "dBFS", right? The question is what number is it (-12, -6, etc.)? The last thing I want is a quite commercial... or a really loud one.
The answer here is likely "it depends." Lots of networks don't bother QCing ads with the same scrutiny that programme material faces, because that's where they get their money from. You may find however that a full-range spot ends up sounding quieter on air than one that's correctly mixed to their specs, based on how their processing works on that end. It's a bit tricky here, because they have their own multiband limiters which will affect the sound of your spot and you have no way of knowing how that will happen except via experience.
Old 18th February 2010
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terminal3 View Post

The answer here is likely "it depends." Lots of networks don't bother QCing ads with the same scrutiny that programme material faces, because that's where they get their money from. You may find however that a full-range spot ends up sounding quieter on air than one that's correctly mixed to their specs, based on how their processing works on that end. It's a bit tricky here, because they have their own multiband limiters which will affect the sound of your spot and you have no way of knowing how that will happen except via experience.

The ads where I'm at are run through a Dolby DP600. It "fixes" any problems with the dialnorm number by attenuating the entire spot. However, cable head ends are still the wild west as far as local inserted spots. I would just follow the specs.
Old 18th February 2010
  #23
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I think the problem here is one of semantics. Dialnorm is not a measurement. It refers to the metadata flag in an AC3 file, which tells the playback system how much to attenuate the mix. I think it adds to the problem of level standardization when terminology is misused. I contend that the station should not specify a specific dialnorm value, because it adds to the confusion, and could very well be totally wrong for the program in question.

For example, suppose I mixed a soundtrack, and my dialogue was already at an ideal level. In this case, I would want to encode my mix with a dialnorm of -31 (no attenuation). Choosing any other value would result in my mix playing back too low. The station should specify target levels, and a standardized method for assessing them (using actual measurement techniques, not by substituting the word "dialnorm"). For example, they could specify a value for "peaks not to exceed" on any channel (using dBfs), and the desired LEQ (or some other measurement standard) for dialogue.

From my observation, level variation from one station to the next is worse than it's ever been (on cable TV anyway). The different broadcast companies have different delivery specs, which isn't helping. I suspect that too many audio people are not using the dialnorm feature of their encoders in the right way. I also suspect that a lot of folks have no idea how to accurately measure average dialogue levels.

Requesting a dialnorm value of -24 is akin to asking someone to turn their mix down by 7dB regardless of its original level. If they were to replace the word "dialnorm" here with their preferred method for level assessment (such as LEQ), it would make a hell of a lot more sense, and probably solve a lot of problems.

IMHO,
-Ben B
Old 18th February 2010
  #24
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Ben, so I think I'm understand this a little more each time I get more information.

Here's my understanding of setting levels based on what you're saying, in a professional setting. First off, you would want to calibrate your speakers / mix environment to a specified level (which I don't know how to do?). Then, you would mix by ear and get the dialogue to sit at the right spot. You would also measure the LeqA with an appropriate meter (LM100 or any software with a long term audio level meter) All of the other sound elements would be built up around that. Then, depending on the network / show, you would encode the audio with their specific dialnorm settings in the metadata. Then, when it reached the network and went through their playback devices, the show would be attenuated (or not) by the dialnorm metadata.

Am I on to something or is this totally off?

Thanks again to everybody's input, greatly appreciated.
Old 18th February 2010
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sword in Hand View Post
Ben, so I think I'm understand this a little more each time I get more information.

Here's my understanding of setting levels based on what you're saying, in a professional setting. First off, you would want to calibrate your speakers / mix environment to a specified level (which I don't know how to do?). Then, you would mix by ear and get the dialogue to sit at the right spot. You would also measure the LeqA with an appropriate meter (LM100 or any software with a long term audio level meter) All of the other sound elements would be built up around that. Then, depending on the network / show, you would encode the audio with their specific dialnorm settings in the metadata. Then, when it reached the network and went through their playback devices, the show would be attenuated (or not) by the dialnorm metadata.

Am I on to something or is this totally off?

Thanks again to everybody's input, greatly appreciated.
Basically, yes. When you do your initial mix, you want to make sure that your dialogue is loud enough, since dialnorm can never boost (it can only attenuate).

I usually place a limiter on my DFX stem, with the output ceiling set to -12, or whatever the maximum peak specification is on the delivery specs for that mix (usually between -10 and -12).

I use moderate compression on the individual voice tracks, as well as before the limiter on the DFX stem to help keep the dynamics under control. I keep an eye on the LEQ(A) of the center channel from early on in the mix process, and make sure that I'm at least exceeding -31 (since anything lower than that cannot be corrected with dialnorm).

When I mix 5.1, I don't have very much gong on in the center channel apart from dialogue, or source audio which contributes negligibly to the measured DFX levels.

Everything else is mixed by ear relative to the dialogue levels. I will occasionally place limiters on other output channels as well if I am concerned that the peak energy is exceeding -12, although this is rare (and never the case for LFE, which is actually printed 10dB lower than the other channels).

-Ben B
Old 18th February 2010
  #26
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And when you're done, the measured long-term overage of your dialogue stem is the value you enter for dialnorm. For example, if your loudness meter is indicating -23, your mix will need to be attenuated to avoid being overly loud upon playback. Setting -23 as the dialnorm value will include this flag in the resulting AC3 file, and the mix will be attenuated properly when it is played back.

-Ben B
Old 18th February 2010
  #27
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Originally Posted by bizzle View Post
You're talking about the new ITU-R BS.1770-1 measurement, yes?

&e
Yes
Old 18th February 2010
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben B View Post
And when you're done, the measured long-term overage of your dialogue stem is the value you enter for dialnorm. For example, if your loudness meter is indicating -23, your mix will need to be attenuated to avoid being overly loud upon playback. Setting -23 as the dialnorm value will include this flag in the resulting AC3 file, and the mix will be attenuated properly when it is played back.

-Ben B

Why wouldn't everything just be mixed for an average level of -31, that way nothing would need to be attenuated? It just seems kind of counter intuitive, or I'm not fully understanding it.
Old 18th February 2010
  #29
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Absolutely correct. The reality, though, is that it's sometimes difficult to nail it in practice. That's why dialnorm was invented. We can simply measure the final LEQ, and enter that as the dialnorm value. If your dialogue is already at -31 LEQ, then great. If it's lower than -31, you're in trouble. If it's higher than -31, dialnorm solves that problem.

-Ben B
Old 18th February 2010
  #30
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Alright finally I'm getting some of this LOL. Ben you're awesome, thank you so much.

Dialnorm looks to be somewhat out of context in their specs.
I'm guessing that the "-12 analog" section of the specs refers to some sort of peak level. I bet if I limit to that it should be alright. Or is this way off? I've put a phone call into the cable company, but haven't heard back yet.

Also, what is the best way to calibrate my system to film standards (or tv, or is there even a standard?)? I'm using 2 channels. Is it some sort of pink noise test or something else? Also, I'm using Cubase and FCP for the sound editing and mixing. Most of my output would be to DVD or BluRay.
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