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What College? Modular Synthesizers
Old 5th September 2008
  #31
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I know lots of sound stories, which one are you talking about Charles? Gary going straight from USC to Skywalker? And Ben worked on the original "Death Race" back in the '70's, then called "Death Race 2000" with Stallone and David Carradine. Then of course Star Wars which changed everything for all of us

Just to be clear; I'm not trying to discount the USC film department, Ben, Gary, Walter, Mark or any of it's alumni, I'm just trying to not discount a lot of other, just-as-talented people who didn't go there.

best, over and out,

Joe
Old 5th September 2008
  #32
Hey.. if you JUST want to learn audio, video, post, troubleshooting, technology, the art, etc... and NOT get a general education then take 1/2 of the tuition and give it to me. I'll train you for a year, and I'll hire the best guys from this forum to fly in and give you one on one training days on various subjects. Plus i'll buy you a protool rig and teach you how to set it up, trouble shoot it and use it properly. I'll give you formal and informal training, take you to other facilities for tours and visits...and put you in front of clients the whole time so you'll walk out with a strong knowledge of the business, the technology, and the art AND have a reel and resume...

... and you'll STILL have half of your money in the bank to start your career.


cheers
geo

The GEARSLUTZ school of POST...


ie: you are probably better off training from professionals vs "post schools"... and you'd save money
Old 5th September 2008
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lipflap View Post
Funny, Joe, my first job after university (BA, anthropology/French) was also in an auto garage (I was the parts guy). I actually learned a lot from that job, but I developed a determined conviction that I didn't want to spend the rest of my life behind a parts counter.
...

Hey, another French major! Woohoo...Got my BA in French from Vanderbilt (minor in molecular biology). Actually, the language background helped my in my grad degree in sw engineering later, weird but true. Not to mention, I'm a whiz at translating menus...too bad there aren't any French restaurants in Nashville.

Anyway, I'd always suggest College of Santa Fe these days because of the affiliated Greer Garson studios which work on real films, not just student films. For a large number of attendees at film schools, their student film is the only one they ever work on. At CSF, there are student films, but the large majority of film students intern on films that hit the theaters, such as "No Country for Old Men" and the upcoming "Brothers". Savannah College of Art and Design was going to buy CSF and make it their film wing, but CSF resisted the takeover (at least they have so far).
Old 5th September 2008
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
well I guess you could ask...


Walter Murch
Ben Burtt
Gary Rydstrom
Steve Flick


and all of these folks....

USC Cinema - Alumni » Notable Alumni
Charles,

There is far more to life than winning an Oscar or being famous. Being happy and making money in your chosen field should be the first requirement. The rest follows. I see far too many intern applicants who are desperate for fame and acceptance but they are not really tickled when they take something and make it better for the client. That's the proper focus. Do good work and the rest will follow.

After I got my BA, I went to grad school and then joined a rock band, winding up at Berklee at the grand old age of 28. It was wonderful because I had a lot of experience under my belt and I could see that a lot of younger guys were struggling for absolutely no reason. I was able to work in studios because I had the experience and savvy, not because I knew all the Bird and Diz tunes without the Real Book. There are many Grammy winners who have dropped by Berklee for a couple of semesters, but who never got a degree. It isn't the schooling that gets you there; it's the schools who capitalize on people who may have gone there, even if they never really learned anything there.

There was a fairly recent article in the NYT by a father whose daughter went to USC. He felt he was wasting his money because she spent the first two years in film criticism, rather than learning film production. I not saying it's a bad school, but to represent it as a fast track to fame and fortune is not accurate.
Old 5th September 2008
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Charles,

There is far more to life than winning an Oscar or being famous. Being happy and making money in your chosen field should be the first requirement. The rest follows. I see far too many intern applicants who are desperate for fame and acceptance but they are not really tickled when they take something and make it better for the client. That's the proper focus. Do good work and the rest will follow.

After I got my BA, I went to grad school and then joined a rock band, winding up at Berklee at the grand old age of 28. It was wonderful because I had a lot of experience under my belt and I could see that a lot of younger guys were struggling for absolutely no reason. I was able to work in studios because I had the experience and savvy, not because I knew all the Bird and Diz tunes without the Real Book. There are many Grammy winners who have dropped by Berklee for a couple of semesters, but who never got a degree. It isn't the schooling that gets you there; it's the schools who capitalize on people who may have gone there, even if they never really learned anything there.

There was a fairly recent article in the NYT by a father whose daughter went to USC. He felt he was wasting his money because she spent the first two years in film criticism, rather than learning film production. I not saying it's a bad school, but to represent it as a fast track to fame and fortune is not accurate.
KK-

lets take a look at the original question-

But anyway something I'm having trouble finding is a school that focus's on post for film/broadcast as much as it does for music recording. I still have time until I need to make up my mind because I'm a junior in high school but if anyone had any suggestions as to what school has at least a good portion of their curriculum dedicated to post, specifically film sound, it would help me out a great deal. Around here all the hype is in pop/rock recording .

I appreciate your position- I have also travelled in a fairly varied manner- and have four kids to boot. this however has little bearing on the question of what college is best to get into the field. If you are going to bother with that, and you are confident of your goals- IE getting into the film sound business, the fastest path to both good pay and good work is as I stated- USC. There is no real competition there as their alumni list illustrates. It is not a requirement for sure,but the connections and inside tracks available through SC are undeniable, and utterly unavailable through other means.

I would say the same sort of thing if someone really wanted to get into Politics- you go to Yale or Harvard. That is where the biggest collection of the brightest lights are going to shine.

in the realm of audio, it is like having Lexicon reverbs instead of Alesis ones, or Schoeps mics instead of MXL ones. Yes, there is a learning curve involved, but you are not being limited by the vehicle.


As to the Nyt article- I havent seen that- but I can call personal friends a great number of USC grads that have been very sucessful in the film sound field.

Ask Ben Burtt or Gary Rydstrom- they got hired directly from there.
Old 5th September 2008
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
I would say the same sort of thing if someone really wanted to get into Politics- you go to Yale or Harvard. That is where the biggest collection of the brightest lights are going to shine.
I think you give far too much credit to these crumbling institutions.
Old 5th September 2008
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I think you give far too much credit to these crumbling institutions.
Perhaps, but their pedigree is what it is....
Old 5th September 2008
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I think you give far too much credit to these crumbling institutions.
i completely agree.
Old 5th September 2008
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgia View Post
Hey.. if you JUST want to learn audio, video, post, troubleshooting, technology, the art, etc... and NOT get a general education then take 1/2 of the tuition and give it to me. I'll train you for a year, and I'll hire the best guys from this forum to fly in and give you one on one training days on various subjects. Plus i'll buy you a protool rig and teach you how to set it up, trouble shoot it and use it properly. I'll give you formal and informal training, take you to other facilities for tours and visits...and put you in front of clients the whole time so you'll walk out with a strong knowledge of the business, the technology, and the art AND have a reel and resume...

... and you'll STILL have half of your money in the bank to start your career.


cheers
geo

The GEARSLUTZ school of POST...


ie: you are probably better off training from professionals vs "post schools"... and you'd save money
Jeez Georgia... I've been doing this for 10 years and I'd STILL take you up on that! If my wife wouldn't kill me for uprooting everyone to NY!
Old 5th September 2008
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
Perhaps, but their pedigree is what it is....
Pedigree is certainly the correct term...cough, cough.
Old 5th September 2008
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Pedigree is certainly the correct term...cough, cough.
Well, you certainly cant argue that they have produced a lot of successful people on the international stage....
Old 5th September 2008
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeMilner View Post
I know lots of sound stories, which one are you talking about Charles? Gary going straight from USC to Skywalker? And Ben worked on the original "Death Race" back in the '70's, then called "Death Race 2000" with Stallone and David Carradine. Then of course Star Wars which changed everything for all of us

Just to be clear; I'm not trying to discount the USC film department, Ben, Gary, Walter, Mark or any of it's alumni, I'm just trying to not discount a lot of other, just-as-talented people who didn't go there.

best, over and out,

Joe
Ben getting hired sight unseen on the recommendation of Ken Mura to work on Star Wars- Gary getting hired after Mura was asked by George Lucas "Who is the next Ben Burtt?"....

I am not sure how many other Colleges people like George Lucas is calling.....

Well I think I have managed to do ok, and I just have a couple of AA degrees....

I think in the market, as it sits right now, you simply have more options by going (and excelling) at USC....
Old 5th September 2008
  #43
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The stories you mention happened, what- 26 years ago in the case of Rydstrom and more than 30 for Burtt? The post sound world has gotten a lot bigger (literally) since then.

Give it a rest. USC is not the Yellow Brick Road to the Oscars, at least not in 2008. And since this thread was started to help a guy in high school, give his parents a break so they don't think that unless they mortgage their house then hoofer will never be a successful in sound, or that if they DO, he will.
Old 5th September 2008
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeMilner View Post
The stories you mention happened, what- 26 years ago in the case of Rydstrom and more than 30 for Burtt? The post sound world has gotten a lot bigger (literally) since then.

Give it a rest. USC is not the Yellow Brick Road to the Oscars, at least not in 2008. And since this thread was started to help a guy in high school, give his parents a break so they don't think that unless they mortgage their house then hoofer will never be a successful in sound, or that if they DO, he will.
"Give it a rest" what- I am not entitled to an opinion, or mine is somehow less credible? check my imdb.... I think I can say I have a little insight into the business..

- any of these schools cost a fair amount- and there are things like scholarships and financial aid- And beyond that- these are just suggestions- from someone who makes his living working on Hollywood films. Did you and KK get rejected by USC?, because the language of your posts are indicating a serious prejudice against it...

Show me another school with an 1/8th of an alumni track record to SC and I will gladly hush....


I also would not agree that the sound editorial business has gotten bigger in the last 20 years....
Old 5th September 2008
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
"Give it a rest" what- I am not entitled to an opinion, or mine is somehow less credible? check my imdb.... I think I can say I have a little insight into the business..

- any of these schools cost a fair amount- and there are things like scholarships and financial aid- And beyond that- these are just suggestions- from someone who makes his living working on Hollywood films. Did you and KK get rejected by USC?, because the language of your posts are indicating a serious prejudice against it...

Show me another school with an 1/8th of an alumni track record to SC and I will gladly hush....


I also would not agree that the sound editorial business has gotten bigger in the last 20 years....
Check my imdb Charles, I've certainly earned my opinion as well, and as an owner of my own facility, who gets calls all the time from people fresh out of school wanting internships, or sound editors looking for their next gig I think I have insight into the employer side of our business as well.

I don't have any predjudice against USC, it's just that you're acting like it's the be-all and end-all, and I honestly don't understand your zeal.

Your statement about the sound editorial business not getting any bigger in the last 20 years is so ridiculous I won't even comment on it.
Old 5th September 2008
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeMilner View Post
Check my imdb Charles, I've certainly earned my opinion as well, and as an owner of my own facility, who gets calls all the time from people fresh out of school wanting internships, or sound editors looking for their next gig I think I have insight into the employer side of our business as well.

I don't have any predjudice against USC, it's just that you're acting like it's the be-all and end-all, and I honestly don't understand your zeal.

Your statement about the sound editorial business not getting any bigger in the last 20 years is so ridiculous I won't even comment on it.
I do not question your experience at all- but folks like Peter Brown, Jaime Hardt and Addison Teague- who were USC grads at Creative Cafe were able to make a much faster climb than the college kids from other places....

I didnt go to SC, but I simply know and respect a great number of mixers and editors who did.

You are correct in SC not being the "Yellow Brick Road" to an Oscar, but if you were to statistically measure the success rate of SC students in the film business against other institutions I think you would see where I am coming from.


As far as the business getting bigger- it has certainly changed, but check the union book- it is shrinking. There may be more work in alt media, but the film sound business as far as "Hollywood" films goes- does seem to be getting smaller- smaller crews, and generally less time per project- it has been in decline since around 2000. A lot of it is due to technological shifts, but the end result is that it is smaller.

Remember projectionists?.... and the 2 to 3 man machine room crews?.... now it is one guy doing both.
Old 6th September 2008
  #47
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Well played, good sir.
Yes, in some ways (well, many ways) the sound business has sacrificed quality for quantity. As you know, here in LA and the Valley there's almost as many post-sound shops as there are Starbucks, but still only a few studios and the "A-list" independents (none of whom I will name so as not to inadvertently leave one out). As an independent who was taught my craft in the studio system, I know of only one way to do sound for films (the "right" way) and it's very difficult to make that work happen at the sizes of films that an independent such as myself is bidding on. I'm the mixer, the editor, the assistant, the "projectionist" all in one. The crew has shrunk indeed, to the detriment of the craft and, in the case of the shrinking Local 700 roster, to the livelihoods of the craftspeople and their families.

And I will give you your statistical analysis of the success rate of USC grads, although I would say that, being here in LA along with the business means there's a lot more likelihood of knowing someone who went to SC! Ahhh why couldn't UCLA have been the one to have the famous film department?

In any case, I hope this spirited exchange has given hoofer some food for thought, and wherever he goes, and however he learns his craft, let's hope he learns it well!

best,

Joe
Old 6th September 2008
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeMilner View Post
Well played, good sir.
Yes, in some ways (well, many ways) the sound business has sacrificed quality for quantity. As you know, here in LA and the Valley there's almost as many post-sound shops as there are Starbucks, but still only a few studios and the "A-list" independents (none of whom I will name so as not to inadvertently leave one out). As an independent who was taught my craft in the studio system, I know of only one way to do sound for films (the "right" way) and it's very difficult to make that work happen at the sizes of films that an independent such as myself is bidding on. I'm the mixer, the editor, the assistant, the "projectionist" all in one. The crew has shrunk indeed, to the detriment of the craft and, in the case of the shrinking Local 700 roster, to the livelihoods of the craftspeople and their families.

And I will give you your statistical analysis of the success rate of USC grads, although I would say that, being here in LA along with the business means there's a lot more likelihood of knowing someone who went to SC! Ahhh why couldn't UCLA have been the one to have the famous film department?

In any case, I hope this spirited exchange has given hoofer some food for thought, and wherever he goes, and however he learns his craft, let's hope he learns it well!

best,

Joe
thanks Joe- I will take the blame for not communicating well....

cheers!

Charles
Old 6th September 2008
  #49
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No blame to be taken Charles, here's to open discussion!

best,


Joe
Old 6th September 2008
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
Well, you certainly cant argue that they have produced a lot of successful people on the international stage....
Depends on your definition of success...
Old 6th September 2008
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
Did you and KK get rejected by USC?
No, but my parents rejected Harvard's offer of a scholarship for me when I was 16. Does that count? Frankly, I probably could have gotten into almost any school I wanted. Can't prove it because I never got a high school diploma but went to college early. Not a big deal; it was pretty common in those days.

As for USC, no, I wasn't rejected (I don't know if I had even heard of it when I went as a pre-med student to college), but I'm glad my daughter decided not to go there, or to North Carolina, or to Tisch. She went to a college she likes and she works on films. Real films as well as student films. I don't care if she ever wins an Oscar or not. I do care that she works in an area she enjoys and has been really happy learning from people who are generous with their knowledge.
Old 6th September 2008
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
No, but my parents rejected Harvard's offer of a scholarship for me when I was 16. Does that count?

As for USC, no, I wasn't rejected (I don't know if I had even heard of it when I went as a pre-med student to college), but I'm glad my daughter decided not to go there, or to North Carolina, or to Tisch. She went to a college she likes and she works on films. Real films as well as student films. I don't care if she ever wins an Oscar or not. I do care that she works in an area she enjoys and has been really happy learning from people who are generous with their knowledge.

I would say that it would be a compliment to both your intellect and effort. It is also good that your daughter went to an institution she liked- My daughter is hoping to go to the CSU Northridge next year for similar reasons (and she has a scholarship to their drama department, which doesn't hurt) the reality is really that many people at that age dont really know what they want to do yet. So jumping into a Harvard or SC would be a bit counter-productive- but there are a lot who do....

The whole focus on "winning" is really a distraction to this conversation- what it equates to is being able to do what you want to. I know when I was 25 I had no idea I would be doing what I do today- And my real desire is something I wont be able to start on for a few years yet, which is NGO aid work.... you simply climb the staircase one step at a time....

I recently watched the original "The Gods Must Be Crazy" with my kids.... It was a pretty amazing experience....
Old 6th September 2008
  #53
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Quote:
I'll train you for a year, and I'll hire the best guys from this forum to fly in and give you one on one training days on various subjects. Plus i'll buy you a protool rig and teach you how to set it up, trouble shoot it and use it properly.
All that for about $20k? The last Pro Tools rig I spec'd was $30k itself.
Old 6th September 2008
  #54
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and that's not all

Quote:
Originally Posted by jacobfarron View Post
All that for about $20k? The last Pro Tools rig I spec'd was $30k itself.
HD|2 Accel is $10k list.

This thread is an interesting read. My college education is in music technology (B.M., U of Hartford and M.M., NYU), and my knowledge of post is from the job I have at a post studio. For me, it wasn't about knowing post, but knowing what is in common that helped me get in the door. Granted, I'm a technical engineer (not a mixer), but I would offer the viewpoint that a "post" education may not hurt, but it may not be necessary either.

Given that I will be doing this next month, I must be doing something right.
Old 8th September 2008
  #55
In the past 10 years i've trained about 200 interns... almost to a one.. they say they have learned more here about the real world and the business, both audio and video, than they learned in school. Most have attended 9 to 12 month Audio and/or Video schools, some have completed or almost completed 4 years of study in colleges... I've have interns from all over the word here. Literally. USA, Canada, mexico, South America, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, the Med, Central America, Iceland, Alaska, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Aussies, Middle east... you name the country and i've probably had at least 1 or 2 interns from there... The basic theme from all of them is they walk out of school given the impression that they now know how to be an audio or video editor/engineer and they -expect- a paying gig. No resume to speak of, no references, no reel, no credits... but gosh goilly they are employable! so say the schools. Most of these trade schools are licenses to print money... teaching comes a distant 2nd....

Bottom line. From this history, I would , if it were my money, and I really wanted to learn this trade.... take what I would pay for my schooling ( ranging from $20k to 200k ) and spend time paying for training from the folks on this forum, than attend a school that claims to teach this stuff. If I wanted a general education then I'd attend college and take classes in post audio and video. But to learn the trade... no.

fwiw

cheers
geo


I'm teaching at Brooklyn College this fall ... classes in post to 50 French students on a program from Paris... I prey I don't have to spend half my time undoing incorrect training ...
Old 9th September 2008
  #56
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Georgia's awesome and I have huge respect for her, but I wanted to offer an anecdote from the other side of the coin, so to speak:

You absolutely can get a fine education at college and land a paying job afterwards - I am a case in point. I went to a 4-year university and graduated with a Bachelors of Music degree. While I was there I became interested in audio post, and a professor helped me get an internship (which was required as part of the coursework) at a post facility in New York, who then offered me a job. So I graduated from school and immediately had a full-time, paying job in the post-production industry. Its obviously not a "top" job, and doesn't pay a whole lot, but it is certainly enough to live on and I'm getting to work in the industry of my choice, and working on some really cool movies and television shows.

So I just wanted to say it definitely is possible to get a job if you want to get an education in a more traditional setting (or if your parents want you to, like mine did). You still have to work your butt off, and be a humble and likable person, and know your stuff, and do work outside of your "official coursework", but it is absolutely possible.

For me, I'm extremely glad that I went to a school instead of just jumping right in with an internship because it gave me the ability to experiment without the pressure of a professional environment, and it gave me many opportunities that I don't think I would have gotten in a real-world scenario.

Cheers!
-Mike
Old 9th September 2008
  #57
What mike said!

This business is EXTREMELY TOUGH to break into and even harder to earn a living doing it. I for one consider myself very lucky and I have to work hard just to pay the bills. Getting a solid degree in another field and a balanced education is very very important.

I've got a degree in Computer Engineering and an MBA, plus lots of military training. I used to work on Wall Street and for other big companies around the US and Europe doing things like designing datacenters, running the FTN network for world wide banking, designing and operating cellular networks, building international networks, doing anti-sub warefare and stuff for the NAVY that i'd have to kill you if I told you.

I chucked it all to be a poor broke mostly out of work editor... and I love it. BUT... That knowledge is there if I ever need it. and BTW.. i'm single with no children... I give major props to kk and others for doing this and supporting a family!


cheers
geo
Old 9th September 2008
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeMilner View Post
Sound supervisors don't want to deal with somebody fresh out of school who thinks they already know how to do everything.
Totally - I blew my first internship because I couldn't keep my mouth shut. I went in there with all kinds of confidence thinking this dude was going to teach me how to mix Saving Private Ryan II lol. I even once got chatty with a director during a spotting session . Needless to say, I was handed my hat.
Whatever school you go to, I think it's more important to learn how to learn rather than just audio specifics. Figure out what makes YOU tick and how you best consume and store information. This is way more valuable than a protools class.
Old 13th September 2008
  #59
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I didn't go to college, in fact I barely finished High School, and wound up learning everything I know about anything from just jumping in and doing things, picking other people's brains and reading voraciously. Obviously it can be done, but from personal experience I definitely don't recommend it. It takes a lot longer and you wind up making a lot of mistakes along the way. At least that was how it was for me. I'm making sure my kids get a top notch liberal arts education. My son just started college at Princeton a week ago and I am so happy for him and at the same time jealous that it literally brings tears to my eyes. I don't want him to do things the hard way like I did.

I personally don't think college should be treated like a trade school. Being technically proficient is only a small part of any task and does little to elevate you above anyone else who can read a manual. The bigger issue is whether you can bring something to the party that makes your contribution unique and compelling, both in terms of ideas and in terms of being able to interface with intelligent, educated, talented people. I don't think you necessarily have to go to college to accomplish that, but it would sure help.

In terms of learning the trade, do an apprenticeship, make yourself useful in every way you can and pay attention. You'll get everything you need, including the connections.
Old 14th September 2008
  #60
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Arrow feel it out

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Peterson View Post
I even once got chatty with a director during a spotting session . Needless to say, I was handed my hat.
I find that these situations are dependent upon who is in the control room or what the atmosphere is. I have worked with some people where talking is not a problem, provided the client starts the conversation. I have also worked with some people where its "Speak when you are spoken to, and don't continue the conversation." This means if the client asks, "How are you?" that you tell them how you are, and don't ask "And how are you?" I just take the "speak when spoken to" approach every time I am in the control room. This way no one can accuse me of making small talk with a client.
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