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"Sound Effects SUCK" - Danny Elfman..... Rackmount Synthesizers
Old 28th August 2008
  #31
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charles maynes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgood View Post
Cool, I'll have to check those last two out.

You should already know mine...

I call Rushmore a "Dutch Chocolate" type of film.... Modest...compact...and absolutely scrumptious.

That film is so much more than the resurrection of Bill Murray's acting career.
Old 29th August 2008
  #32
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I don't know of many folks working on writing scores for that genre who don't realise that you can't compete with an explosion and that you'll lose every time, as you learn that pretty quickly once you hear your music obliterated by the sound of a few tonnes of explosives. If anybody keeps trying to then it's definitely somewhat masochistic!

I see from my tiny and blinkered viewpoint, less 'overcomposition' but more I see folks writing stuff that competes directly with a sound in the track, often the dialogue. No point in writing oboe lines over a edgy female dialogue tone, they will compete. No point in having more than one or two ambient synth tones, they will screw with the room tone half the time. Half the time any 'bosh' or 'boom' moment will be dealt with by sound especially on horror flicks.

But for me the crux of the issue seems to be that a lot of directors overspot, a lot of music editors overtemp to compensate for perceived issues in the picture, and the composer usually inherits a bad situation in those instances. But on a purely musical level the predominant thing at the moment in town seems to be doing less and less. Thomas Newman, Gustavo Santaolalla...spare, ambient textures...the first thing directors in the studio system are jumping on these days seem to be anything that's too overtly 'musical' on a lot of pictures.

And there are many good examples of sound designers thinking that every single visual motion needs a sound (since when does a sword make a metallic ringing noise when you swish it through the air?? I know, suspension of disbelief and all, but some films are getting silly with how many times there is a sound that is effectively, the sound of the camera moving...like a 'whoosh' effect).

I was just at a test screening from a film I'm working on a few weeks back where there was so much design that it screwed with the dialogue, and people were missing much of the subtler humour as they simply could not hear the lines...often where there was no music cue present. Mercifully the studio had the sense to realise that was partly why the scores weren't as high as a previous screening where it was simply an avid output pre sound department, and beat them up, not the music department.

Just to say it isn't always the composer's fault when there's too much going on. And some of the best action movies break the convention of having too much sound going on. The power of silence, or near silence, is often underestimated it seems, and the concept of relative dynamics and that constant loud sound simply sets in the ear a new reference level for what 'loud' is - such that 'big moments' no longer feel big in context, is similarly not understood sometimes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
Well, I find that a lot of composers over-compose, and want to fill up every second of the movie with un-necessary music.

They think they HAVE to punctuate every dramatic scene with sappy strings, every punch and gunshot or crash with trashy cymbals and loud, brash trombone hits. LAME.

I would say, the most annoying thing in movies today is the overuse of music.
And in an action film you want and need the SFX. Pure and simple.
If he doesn't like that, he shouldn't take on gigs doing music for those types of films.
Old 29th August 2008
  #33
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henchman View Post
Well, I find that a lot of composers over-compose, and want to fill up every second of the movie with un-necessary music.

They think they HAVE to punctuate every dramatic scene with sappy strings, every punch and gunshot or crash with trashy cymbals and loud, brash trombone hits. LAME.

I would say, the most annoying thing in movies today is the overuse of music.
And in an action film you want and need the SFX. Pure and simple.
If he doesn't like that, he shouldn't take on gigs doing music for those types of films.

I think that's the DIRECTORS who are making those decisions - not composers. The directors as of late seem to want to be hitting and covering everything. I'm seeing composers asking to write LESS, and being turned down by the directors.

It's the same problem as with SFX. It's a Directorial decision.
Old 29th August 2008
  #34
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drBill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by londontown View Post
Just to say it isn't always the composer's fault when there's too much going on. And some of the best action movies break the convention of having too much sound going on. The power of silence, or near silence, is often underestimated it seems, and the concept of relative dynamics and that constant loud sound simply sets in the ear a new reference level for what 'loud' is - such that 'big moments' no longer feel big in context, is similarly not understood sometimes.
Old 29th August 2008
  #35
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charles maynes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
this is a very subjective issue, and falls into the realm of the value of the number of pages in a book determining the books quality or value.

I might add though- I think the first Matrix film was one of the most satisfyingly full, yet cooperative, tracks I can remember....
Old 29th August 2008
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
I might add though- I think the first Matrix film was one of the most satisfyingly full, yet cooperative, tracks I can remember....
That's one of those "The gods will now shine down on you good fortune" movies. There are so many things in that film that just fall in to place.

I'll never forget sitting in the theater and seeing time slow down while Trinity kicked the **** out of those cops. I was literally sitting there in the theater starring at the screen with my mouth open. I can't remember another movie that has had that same "Star Wars" effect on me since.

One quick bit of trivia: What date does it show that Neo's passport will expire in the interrogation scene?
Old 29th August 2008
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drBill View Post
I think that's the DIRECTORS who are making those decisions - not composers. The directors as of late seem to want to be hitting and covering everything. I'm seeing composers asking to write LESS, and being turned down by the directors.

It's the same problem as with SFX. It's a Directorial decision.
Most serial TV productions in this region don't see much of a director in the post. Pic editor, sound supervisor and music composer fill in those shoes, and the director is just called in to 'amen' the episode when all is done.
Old 29th August 2008
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgood View Post
That's one of those "The gods will now shine down on you good fortune" movies. There are so many things in that film that just fall in to place.

I'll never forget sitting in the theater and seeing time slow down while Trinity kicked the **** out of those cops. I was literally sitting there in the theater starring at the screen with my mouth open. I can't remember another movie that has had that same "Star Wars" effect on me since.

One quick bit of trivia: What date does it show that Neo's passport will expire in the interrogation scene?
Curious? Read: Woah. Neo's Passport in the Matrix Expired on 9/11/2001
Old 29th August 2008
  #39
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Interesting...



The Matrix (1999)
Old 29th August 2008
  #40
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danijel's Avatar
S**t. Now I know why tape-saturation plug-ins sound so similar to 'the real thing' since 9/11th.
Old 29th August 2008
  #41
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jahtao's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgood View Post
Joan of Arc
Great film.

Don't remember the music tho' (I heard it on a piano live). Anyway where were we.....
Old 29th August 2008
  #42
Gear Head
 

I like the isolated scores on most of the DVD titles that I have. Yes there’s noticeable difference in the dynamics between listening to the completed soundtrack and the isolated score.

I have a few Danny Elfman isolated scores.

BettleJuice six-track Dolby stereo
Planet of the Apes 4:2:4 Dolby stereo
Mars Attacks six-track Dolby stereo
Edward Scissorhands 2.0 Dolby stereo


Other isolated scores.

Superman the Movie six-track Dolby stereo
Alien 2.0 Dolby stereo
The Sound of Music 4:2:4 Dolby stereo
The Witches of Eastwick six-track Dolby stereo
Glory four-track Dolby stereo
L.A. Confidential six-track Dolby stereo
I’ Robot 4:2:4 Dolby stereo
Amadeus 2.0 Dolby stereo
The Last of the Mohicans six-track Dolby stereo

I had this idea a few years ago to use two DVD players and two of the same film sync them and play the full soundtrack of DME while the other plays the isolated score track over multiple of loudspeakers, thou this never came about I’m convinced the idea would work as experiment in the home with a few one off titles as special DVD presentation.
Old 29th August 2008
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLpro4645 View Post
I had this idea a few years ago to use two DVD players and two of the same film sync them and play the full soundtrack of DME while the other plays the isolated score track over multiple of loudspeakers, thou this never came about I’m convinced the idea would work as experiment in the home with a few one off titles as special DVD presentation.
Or you can play them in inverse phase to get rid of the darn music, and finally hear the FX and dialogue properly
Old 29th August 2008
  #44
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charles maynes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLpro4645 View Post
I like the isolated scores on most of the DVD titles that I have. Yes there’s noticeable difference in the dynamics between listening to the completed soundtrack and the isolated score.

I have a few Danny Elfman isolated scores.

BettleJuice six-track Dolby stereo
Planet of the Apes 4:2:4 Dolby stereo
Mars Attacks six-track Dolby stereo
Edward Scissorhands 2.0 Dolby stereo


Other isolated scores.

Superman the Movie six-track Dolby stereo
Alien 2.0 Dolby stereo
The Sound of Music 4:2:4 Dolby stereo
The Witches of Eastwick six-track Dolby stereo
Glory four-track Dolby stereo
L.A. Confidential six-track Dolby stereo
I’ Robot 4:2:4 Dolby stereo
Amadeus 2.0 Dolby stereo
The Last of the Mohicans six-track Dolby stereo

I had this idea a few years ago to use two DVD players and two of the same film sync them and play the full soundtrack of DME while the other plays the isolated score track over multiple of loudspeakers, thou this never came about I’m convinced the idea would work as experiment in the home with a few one off titles as special DVD presentation.
Soundtrack recordings are not mirrors of the Music Stem.... It would be a very different thing altogether.
Old 29th August 2008
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
Soundtrack recordings are not mirrors of the Music Stem.... It would be a very different thing altogether.
Not mirrors, would you care to explain that in few simplified ways so I can understand?

Maybe a youtube video special as pictures and words often explain this process more clearly.

Thanks.
Old 29th August 2008
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danijel View Post
Or you can play them in inverse phase to get rid of the darn music, and finally hear the FX and dialogue properly
Sometimes thou not often thou with discrete six-track films on DVD music or a different part of the track is placed in centre channel and sometimes thou very rare its used only on left and right and stereo surrounds.

One film that springs to mind is “Broken Arrow” (1996) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115759/

The opening credits has music on left and right I think stereo surrounds are active at the time, its been over a year since I played the film, the centre had some good Foley effects.
Old 29th August 2008
  #47
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charles maynes's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLpro4645 View Post
Not mirrors, would you care to explain that in few simplified ways so I can understand?

Maybe a youtube video special as pictures and words often explain this process more clearly.

Thanks.
it is much easier to explain- and requires no illustrations-

the score usually is level adjusted to accomodate the goals of the director- IE if dialog is happening the score will be lowered, and perhapss even omitted. The soundtrack recording is mixed to be a music only presentation.
Old 29th August 2008
  #48
great web sight Charles...never heard of it til now.

on a similar note, i've had to mix and am about to mix some TV spots that
feature lots of animation flying around. so naturally, they want an ass-ton
of whooshes and swizzles, but they also want a bold music track. oh yeah,
and wall-to-wall dialog and VO. it's a real problem 'cause you just can't have
it all...especially on the small-screen.

so at some point, i'll have to gently guide the writer of the spots into
making some decisions. it's such a "more is more" society we live in...
glad there are inspirational pros like Danny E. and you folks to try to
keep people honest.

marty.
Old 29th August 2008
  #49
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles maynes View Post
it is much easier to explain- and requires no illustrations-

the score usually is level adjusted to accomodate the goals of the director- IE if dialog is happening the score will be lowered, and perhapss even omitted. The soundtrack recording is mixed to be a music only presentation.

I see and if dialogue isn’t happen its raised up over the effects D/E tracks, thank you.
Old 29th August 2008
  #50
Gear Head
 

At present I’ve been playing thou its only in monaural sound Leviathan (1989) I can hear parts of Jerry Goldsmith’s score underplayed and then raising up over the D/E tracks. Would you believe I’ve been playing the first part now for nearly or close to 2 hours heh because this film isn’t yet LOL available on region 2 DVD in Dolby six-track, thanks a lot MGM/UA!

Leviathan (1989) [1/10]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETC7Ob3gruM&feature=related
Old 29th August 2008
  #51
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I know with a number of the Iso Scores that I have worked on for DVD, that many times they show music that ended up not being used at all in the film. A good example of this would be the original French Connection, where there was much more music scored than ended up being used - that and some of what was used was utilized in different scenes then that for which they were originally intended.

Randall



Quote:
Originally Posted by JBLpro4645 View Post
I like the isolated scores on most of the DVD titles that I have. Yes there’s noticeable difference in the dynamics between listening to the completed soundtrack and the isolated score.

I have a few Danny Elfman isolated scores.

BettleJuice six-track Dolby stereo
Planet of the Apes 4:2:4 Dolby stereo
Mars Attacks six-track Dolby stereo
Edward Scissorhands 2.0 Dolby stereo


Other isolated scores.

Superman the Movie six-track Dolby stereo
Alien 2.0 Dolby stereo
The Sound of Music 4:2:4 Dolby stereo
The Witches of Eastwick six-track Dolby stereo
Glory four-track Dolby stereo
L.A. Confidential six-track Dolby stereo
I’ Robot 4:2:4 Dolby stereo
Amadeus 2.0 Dolby stereo
The Last of the Mohicans six-track Dolby stereo

I had this idea a few years ago to use two DVD players and two of the same film sync them and play the full soundtrack of DME while the other plays the isolated score track over multiple of loudspeakers, thou this never came about I’m convinced the idea would work as experiment in the home with a few one off titles as special DVD presentation.
Old 29th August 2008
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danijel View Post
S**t. Now I know why tape-saturation plug-ins sound so similar to 'the real thing' since 9/11th.
LOL


Morpheus: "If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain "
Old 30th August 2008
  #53
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Oh man, I hope I didn't accidentally kill this thread.
Old 30th August 2008
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcgood View Post
Oh man, I hope I didn't accidentally kill this thread.
Do not think you can kill the thread. There is no thread.
Old 30th August 2008
  #55
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charles maynes's Avatar
 

BC- there is no spoon.....
Old 30th August 2008
  #56
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bcgood's Avatar
 

Spoon?


































Oh, that's where I put it!


Old 30th August 2008
  #57
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charles maynes's Avatar
 

Spoon boy:

Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.
Neo: What truth?
Spoon boy: There is no spoon.
Neo: There is no spoon?
Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.
Old 30th August 2008
  #58
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If there is no spoon, then what is this room?
Am I in here or under there?








































I just made you say underwear!





Who wrote the Simpson's theme song again? Ah yes, back full circle.
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