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Fixed Film Spec Structure Pro Tools versus SMPTE output bus structure for DAPS
Old 20th May 2020
  #1
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Fixed Film Spec Structure Pro Tools versus SMPTE output bus structure for DAPS

This post is about killing 2 birds with one stone.

I feel that Protools fixed internal bus structure is a huge roadblock when it comes to workflow.
My opinion is that the internal bus structure should be selectable or at least follow the selected output bus structure.

On closer examination of the Recent 3rd “ pro tools expert “ video on this, although it does solve a re rendering back into Pro Tools issue for loudness measurement, it still doesn’t provide the solution needed for a sensible composing workflow.
As this is posted under the Post Audio title ,I will explain further. ( although a large percentage of Post Audio folk are musicians as well, sometimes the fiscal division of workflows can seperate trains of thought and some work practice requirements may not be as obvious to others in a different workflow mindset )

Please forgive me if I am spelling out the bleeding obvious in the effort to clarify my thought process, I’ll try and do it in point form.

1. When composing most ( if not all) musicians work sympathetically with other content /Fx. (Especially without the interruptions of latency)
ie, Vocalist riding reverb decays, syncopating with rhythmic delays, pianist and pedal damping, guitarist and feedback etc..

2. A lot of Virtual Instruments I use are multichannel and are essentially content for creating beds.
Kontakt, Superior Drummer 3 , Omnisphere, RMC string splitter for guitars, Sound Particles etc

3. I use both the Stratus and Symphony R4 Surround Exponential Reverbs, Slapper by Cargo Cult ,Isono Anymix Pro,and Utilising send pans follows track pans is pretty standard for me when gluing things together.
Even when using stereo and mono tracks I’ll utilise surround outputs and internally created surround busses that follow the fixed internal Film standard.

4 Ideally the best case scenario would be to monitor real time through DAPS whilst creating so I can work in sympathy with evolving content (point 1).

5. I realise I can tracklay a session and then create a new one and import session data, split the multichannel files, reorder them and use them as beds , also I can use feature mono (and stereo of course) instruments as objects and mix and create the extra stereo return out of objects and utilise them for the 7.1.4 for content and reverbs.

6 . I have a 5.1, 12 core 3.2 ghz 64 gig Cheesegrator Mac with an HDX card.
With the send return method of DAPS I find I still have leftover DSP ( so far ) for AAX DSP based plugins and with 4 7.1.2 beds and 40 objects the Renderer is running around 30% usage of CPU.
Following Dolby’s instructions and utilising the Dolby Audio Bridge workflow for some reason gives me 6010 errors whereas the send return method is solid.

The fact in practice , you have compose in one session, and mix in another in this day and age is ridiculous.

Any suggestions of creative routing to achieve a one session workflow described in point 4 would be extremely welcome.

Cheers,

Bill
Old 21st May 2020
  #2
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NReichman's Avatar
 

I'm not entirely sure where your pain points are, but you can setup your IO page to conform to the SMPTE channel order spec, and work very easily in Pro Tools, hearing things panned where you would expect them to be, even though the PT meters that are using the FILM order don't reflect the channel order in your room. So yes, of course you can monitor through DAPS. Unless latency is what's bugging you. And, you shouldn't have to bounce tracks and load them into a new session. Send/Return did appear to be less CPU intensive than Dolby Audio Bridge, but you're not forced to use DAB. I think we need more info from you...
Old 21st May 2020
  #3
Dolby Atmos best practises

Hey everyone, hope you don't mind if I add to this thread with some more Atmos specific questions.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fiddly 'house keeping' stuff of Atmos. Do any of you have any tips for some best practises for Pro Tools and Dolby Atmos session and I/O management? I've experienced a range of... 'discrepancies'... that range from some missing I/O routings to DAPS which result in glitching or lack of transport, right through to catastrophically hilarious do_nots. One of which includes resetting an existing Atmos session's I/O to the default of the Atmos renderer, which in turn removed all object automation in the existing session. Whether it is standard, or something specific to 2020.3, I don't know.

How best do I not mess stuff up, particularly when moving sessions from DAPS to DAMS or a theatrical RMU for mastering? Do Atmos I/O settings stay with a DAPS master? Or should I also be exporting and filing away an input/binaural/rerender config file with the Pro Tools session, plus saving Pro Tools I/O mappings as a reference?
Old 21st May 2020
  #4
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NReichman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Do Atmos I/O settings stay with a DAPS master?
Sorry you're having troubles. There are ways to make it all work smoothly. Regarding your question, those are totally separate things. Once you have a .atmos DAMF or an ADM file, the I/O settings in Pro Tools are irrelevant. Backup your PT sessions as you would normally do with any PT project. Object/bed assignments should travel with the PT session.
Old 21st May 2020
  #5
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If you are moving things between different studios/renderer types - you are going to be happiest matching your DAB session to best conform to what the large stage is expecting. If you are mixing this, ask the stage tech before hand what the layout/IO is going to be. If you are handing off, ask the mixer.

If you are mastering, please using the 'description' field in the Inputs page on the renderer - especially if you are making an ADM that goes to a third party. The descriptor field is how the tracks/clips get named when converting from an ADM to a Pro Tools session.

Randall


Quote:
Originally Posted by LDStudios View Post
Hey everyone, hope you don't mind if I add to this thread with some more Atmos specific questions.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fiddly 'house keeping' stuff of Atmos. Do any of you have any tips for some best practises for Pro Tools and Dolby Atmos session and I/O management? I've experienced a range of... 'discrepancies'... that range from some missing I/O routings to DAPS which result in glitching or lack of transport, right through to catastrophically hilarious do_nots. One of which includes resetting an existing Atmos session's I/O to the default of the Atmos renderer, which in turn removed all object automation in the existing session. Whether it is standard, or something specific to 2020.3, I don't know.

How best do I not mess stuff up, particularly when moving sessions from DAPS to DAMS or a theatrical RMU for mastering? Do Atmos I/O settings stay with a DAPS master? Or should I also be exporting and filing away an input/binaural/rerender config file with the Pro Tools session, plus saving Pro Tools I/O mappings as a reference?
Old 22nd May 2020
  #6
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Thanks Nathaniel,
This is the answer I have been waiting for....
You say that the meters don’t reflect what is going on Signal flow wise?
Maybe this is what is throwing me..

So you are saying If I,

Create a 7.1.2 bus.
Feed a 7.1.2 source into it.
Create a 7,1,2 Aux ,
Load a 7.1.2 effect into this Aux and feed the input of the Aux with the 7.1.2 bus.
The source and the FX loaded Aux feed the print track.
You can the feed any format , mono, stereo, LCR, 5.1 etc into this same environment (effect) and adjust their sends to glue and give rough POV to each source. Plus send follows pan of source, of course.
Standard old school practise.

That if I change the output to Smpte and I go back into the bus I/O and even if the 7.1.2 bus I created still reads as Film format,... it actually isn’t ? . Noting that you cannot physically swap the centre or right ie (LCR... LRC etc)...

Could you explain further, I must be thick ...in the least it’s very misleading.
This certainly was an issue way back when 5.1 first started and the Pro Control had a different I/O layout. (It was actually selectable output format as “SMPTE Pro Control” back then)...
I would be very happy if this is actually the case....

Cheers

Bill
Old 22nd May 2020
  #7
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NReichman's Avatar
 

Hello Bill:

I don't want to over-complicate this. EVERYTHING inside Pro Tools will always be film order. Just go with it. But your IO page that specifies which channels go to which speakers, or which inputs to a renderer can be different.

So for example, I run my system in SMPTE order, so when I go to the output page of IO settings, the channels are arranged in SMPTE order. quadraphonics is pretty experienced, so he may have a better way of explaining this, but I suggest creating a division in your head between what's happening inside PT and what's happening outside.

Make sense?
Old 23rd May 2020
  #8
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Ok,
It seems like I was being too logical about this.
You are essentially saying the output bus changes it’s order, “post” the Master 7.12 fader.
The metering order on the master fader has noting to do with the selected output bus.
Well, That is how I am interpreting what you’re saying....
is this correct?
Thanks again ,
Bill
Old 23rd May 2020
  #9
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NReichman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suite Surround View Post
Ok,
It seems like I was being too logical about this.
You are essentially saying the output bus changes it’s order, “post” the Master 7.12 fader.
The metering order on the master fader has noting to do with the selected output bus.
Well, That is how I am interpreting what you’re saying....
is this correct?
Thanks again ,
Bill
Yep, exactly.
Old 23rd May 2020
  #10
Here for the gear
 

Thankyou Nathaniel,
I have carried that misconception around for some years.
Signal flow has always been a very logical thing for me.
There has never been such a thing as” black magic “ if you know what I mean.
That’s is a “just accept it “ moment for me.
Well , it’s good , I can move forward now without having to reinvent the wheel....
Much appreciated,
Bill
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