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typical cinema sounding speaker for small mix room
Old 25th April 2019
  #1
Gear Nut
typical cinema sounding speaker for small mix room

hi guys!

for my new studio (roughly 4.5m x 7.5m x 2,6m, well treated) I'm looking for a 5.1 speaker setup. I will use it alongside with a proper stereo setup for music production.

It's all about translation for me. It should sound as typical as possible, ****ty muffled JBL horrible cinema sound :D Speakers should not be too big, as they will be positioned on top of my stereo system, flush mounted, into the "wall". so a seperate amp would be good.

I know its alot about room size etc., I just want to get as close as possible.

I found all those bigger JBLs in threads here, but they are too big. I wonder if the smaller / newer models have the same typical cinema sound? do the old LSR 28P have that sound?

any recommendations which speaker would be good? dont have to be jbl.
Old 26th April 2019
  #2
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I have found plenty of JBL 44xx on eBay, at good prices and in excellent condition. And you can get replacement drivers from JBL and many dealers.

My room is about the same size as yours, non-parallel. I'm using 4412A for mains, 4410 for dialog beneath 65" LCD monitor, 4408 for surrounds, and a pair of really old 4406 as additional surround fill for the rear seats. Translates beautifully.
Old 26th April 2019
  #3
Bi-amped 3678 should be OK for that room size. You'd be surprised at how not so ****ty it is when EQed and set up properly
Old 26th April 2019
  #4
Gear Nut
thanks!

3678 are waaayyyy too big for my room. I mean the cabinet size.

4412A look interesting! thanks for that.

But I still wonder if there are any smaller models that get that cinema sound!
Old 27th April 2019
  #5
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Amie from meyersound
https://meyersound.com/product/amie/
Old 28th April 2019
  #6
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dr.sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmanuel View Post
NO! Amie's are made to be placed no more than 4 feet from you.
Anything further away really changes their sound.
Look at the white paper from John Meyer about the Amie's.
It's written out right there.
Old 28th April 2019
  #7
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Here are good JBL's for your room:
http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/r...2#.XMUv9JNKhE4

They would fill it up just about right. Many smaller rooms in
Hollywood use them.
I have the smaller self powered JBL 6328's and they translate
really well to my Meyer Acherons and visa versa.
Old 28th April 2019
  #8
Gear Nut
thanks

well the 6332 look great, but maabe there is something smaller and cheaper?

for example, do the LSR708i also have the cinema sound and translation?
Old 28th April 2019
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
NO! Amie's are made to be placed no more than 4 feet from you.
Anything further away really changes their sound.
Look at the white paper from John Meyer about the Amie's.
It's written out right there.
I couldn’t find this white paper, do you have a link please?

Last edited by Schmanuel; 28th April 2019 at 05:58 PM..
Old 28th April 2019
  #10
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dr.sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schmanuel View Post
I couldn’t find this white paper, du you have a link please?
It does not appear on the Meyer website like it once did.
Take my word... no more than 4 feet away.
They are not made to fill up a room.
They are nearfield monitors.
Old 28th April 2019
  #11
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what is a 'cinema sounding' speaker anyway? - sometimes gear seems to get chosen without much evidence of it's suitability, sometimes for good reason: two of the best sounding places i experienced used temporary setups, one with large studio monitors, one with pa speakers...
Old 28th April 2019
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
It does not appear on the Meyer website like it once did.
Take my word... no more than 4 feet away.
They are not made to fill up a room.
They are nearfield monitors.
I totally believe you!! Was just curious.
Old 29th April 2019
  #13
I am using some older M&K speakers and subwoofer for my 12 by 20 foot mix room. See https://www.mksoundus.com/collections/speakers-1

They work well!
Old 29th April 2019
  #14
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
what is a 'cinema sounding' speaker anyway?
well, to me it is a certain frequency response. also dry rooms and roomsize, but those typical cinema speakers always seem to have certain frequencies pretty harsh, others quite dull. mabe this horn-style build?

Thomas, the MK look good, but they're a bit pricy. which models do you have?
Old 30th April 2019
  #15
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minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeandado View Post
well, to me it is a certain frequency response. also dry rooms and roomsize, but those typical cinema speakers always seem to have certain frequencies pretty harsh, others quite dull. mabe this horn-style build?
Wow, what Dub Stages have you been on? What stages have you heard your mixes on? I've never heard harsh and yet dull as a "cinema" speaker... Properly setup cinema speakers actually sound pretty darn good.

I would get whatever JBL's you can afford that give you the proper SPL for your size room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeandado View Post
Thomas, the MK look good, but they're a bit pricy. which models do you have?
He's a Mastering Engineer, he does not mix films.
Old 30th April 2019
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Rose View Post
I'm using 4412A for mains, 4410 for dialog beneath 65" LCD monitor, 4408 for surrounds, and a pair of really old 4406 as additional surround fill for the rear seats. Translates beautifully.
All 5 should match.
Old 30th April 2019
  #17
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by minister View Post
Wow, what Dub Stages have you been on? What stages have you heard your mixes on? I've never heard harsh and yet dull as a "cinema" speaker... Properly setup cinema speakers actually sound pretty darn good.
I've worked in couple dub stages here in cologne/germany, and saw my mixes on dozen of film festivals. also there is a smaller cinema, in which I can mix low/no budget stuff in the mornings.

so, although they not all sound the same, there is always the same surprise when coming from a mix room (also several rooms, mainly with genelecs, neumann, gaithain).

first is of course overall dynamics, the balance of the quiet to the loud moments, and the bass response. thats due to room size.

but then there is the frequency issue I mentioned. Songs tend to reveal that the best. while a brilliant pop mix always translates, a experimental/indie/weird piece reveals its flaws, that were unheard to me before in the mix room with studio monitors. And that is usually some ugly resonance between 500-4000hz, and some others I have to boost.
Old 30th April 2019
  #18
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dr.sound's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeandado View Post
so, although they not all sound the same, there is always the same surprise when coming from a mix room (also several rooms, mainly with genelecs, neumann, gaithain).

first is of course overall dynamics, the balance of the quiet to the loud moments, and the bass response. thats due to room size.
Genelecs are the speakers which you THINK you have a good mix on but when you go elsewhere you FIND surprises!
Old 30th April 2019
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thisgoestomark View Post
All 5 should match.
Good point.

Ah... and to the poster who asked "what does a cinema speaker sound like?"... this is a good approximation from something smaller than the typical screen speaker.
Attached Thumbnails
typical cinema sounding speaker for small mix room-44xx.jpg  
Old 30th April 2019
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Rose View Post
Good point.

Ah... and to the poster who asked "what does a cinema speaker sound like?"... this is a good approximation from something smaller than the typical screen speaker.
thx - nothing unusual as far as i can see, at least nothing i could typically associate with 'cinema speakers'.
Old 30th April 2019
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
thx - nothing unusual as far as i can see, at least nothing i could typically associate with 'cinema speakers'.
A couple of points on the graphs:
  • No artificial hype on top and bottom. A lot of speakers try to “flatter” music, which makes them unreliable for voice or nat sounds.
  • Distortion is measured at 96 dB SPL. Thats critical. Movies are played loud, and they have to be clean. These are clean.
  • No serious distortion at the crossover frequency. Also, the 44xx don’t put the crossover in a critical speech range. A lot of speakers xover around 1.5k, which can seriously affect intelligibility or male / female balance. Distortion on speech totally disqualifies a speaker for me... even though the speaker can sound good on music.
  • And... there ARE graphs. Actual measurements, not something drawn by the marketing department. That’s rare, these days. Even JBL Pro — whoever owns them now — doesn’t do that much any more.
Old 30th April 2019
  #22
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minister's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
Genelecs are the speakers which you THINK you have a good mix on but when you go elsewhere you FIND surprises!
Exactly. Especially the high end.
Old 30th April 2019
  #23
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They are all in the same tonal family, they match close enough. I wouldn't mix brands for L/R vs C, but having a slightly different driver isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be.

Randall


Quote:
Originally Posted by thisgoestomark View Post
All 5 should match.
Old 30th April 2019
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Rose View Post
A couple of points on the graphs:
  • No artificial hype on top and bottom. A lot of speakers try to “flatter” music, which makes them unreliable for voice or nat sounds.
  • Distortion is measured at 96 dB SPL. Thats critical. Movies are played loud, and they have to be clean. These are clean.
  • No serious distortion at the crossover frequency. Also, the 44xx don’t put the crossover in a critical speech range. A lot of speakers xover around 1.5k, which can seriously affect intelligibility or male / female balance. Distortion on speech totally disqualifies a speaker for me... even though the speaker can sound good on music.
  • And... there ARE graphs. Actual measurements, not something drawn by the marketing department. That’s rare, these days. Even JBL Pro — whoever owns them now — doesn’t do that much any more.
thx again - i get to measure/align speaker systems almost on a daily basis: that's why i mentioned nothing special (regarding fr i should have added).
although performance of large speaker systems for live sr by far exceed spl requirements of cinema speakers, measurements in live sound mostly focus on eq response and phase behaviour between different sub systems but rarely include distortion; having drivers which cover a wider than typical frequency range certainly helps to keep issues low.
Old 30th April 2019
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
i get to measure/align speaker systems almost on a daily basis: that's why i mentioned nothing special ...
I know very little about concert s/r, but I'd imagine one of the requirements is similar: clean high SPL, and smooth off-axis response. But your much more complex systems likely have more phase and crossover issues to contend with, and you have to worry about both horizontal and vertical dispersion.

The comparison is to MI speakers, which rarely even bother publishing distortion measurements.

Even Genelec, good as they are, just give a 'maximum SPL' at some unspecified distortion... and if you're thinking of putting them in an actual theater, their 1238 docs show a very small sweet spot with as much as -10 dB > 4 kHz at 60 degrees off the horizontal axis.
Old 2nd May 2019
  #26
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Fred Story's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.sound View Post
Genelecs are the speakers which you THINK you have a good mix on but when you go elsewhere you FIND surprises!
For years, comments like this kept me from considering Genelecs. I was a died-in-the-wool JBL guy. But a dialog editor/mixer I've worked with - whose ears and opinion I trust greatly - told me (his Genelec bias notwithstanding) that he thought their GLM calibration system negates many of those old complaints. So I decided to take a shot and decide for myself.

So far, my experience has been completely opposite. My mixes have never translated better.
Old 2nd May 2019
  #27
Quote:
Originally Posted by minister View Post


He's a Mastering Engineer, he does not mix films.
And that disqualifies me from having an opinion??? I have done some film work but mostly I deal with surround recordings and not film mixing. When I playback film surround sound my M&K speakers sound pretty darn good and I think I could, if needed, mix on them for film.

FWIW

Old 2nd May 2019
  #28
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Of course you’re entitled to an opinion. But someone like Marti, who has had to deal with these issues on a daily basis for years, over thousands (?) of large-screen narrative projects, is entitled to a more informed opinion.

I had decades of experience in non-narrative major market and network tv when I did my first feature; lots of awards and a national rep for that kind of track. And I was amazed how little I knew about feature film sound.... particularly when I showed up at Marti’s studio to bail the thing out.
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